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Home » Black Ops & Intel » SEAL Team Six Throws OPSEC to the Wind, Next Time Use Delta Force or Rangers…

SEAL Team Six Throws OPSEC to the Wind, Next Time Use Delta Force or Rangers…

by Jack Murphy · August 24, 2012 · Posted In: Black Ops & Intel, NSWC, SOF News, Special Operations, USASOC
OBL
With the 9/11 attacks being the story of the last decade, the raid that resulted in the killing of Osama Bin Laden may be the big story of this decade.  Before SEAL Team Six inserted via classified stealth helicopters and killed HVT #1, the White House, the Pentagon, and the CIA had an agreed upon narrative that would be sold to the public.  This narrative would presumably help everyone take the most amount of credit possible, but would also do the responsible thing in maintaining operational security.  This means that the military would be able to protect Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures, while the CIA would protect sources and methods.

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Then one of the stealth helicopters, probably a highly modified MH-60 Blackhawk, crash landed inside the compound.  With the agreed upon cover story thrown into disarray, the White House panicked.  This was the big story that would keep the President in office for another four years and if the Public Relations spin made them look bad it could be curtains for the administration.  The White House then began to leak sensitive information.  Perhaps the culmination of these leaks was a pitifully bad article about the OBL raid in The New Yorker magazine, describing a childish facsimile of an actual military operation.

Dev

While many journalists scrambled to get the big scoop on the Bin Laden raid, they became frustrated that The New Yorker landed the story.  What many didn’t understand was that the New Yorker was the White House’s trusted media outlet.  Call it Public Relations, call it propaganda, this was the venue chosen to make the White House look good.  SOFREP does not know where the leak originated, but the National Security Council and any connections they may have to The New Yorker would be a good place to start looking.

As far as prosecutions, well, good luck with that.  The perception in the halls of government is that anything ordered by the White House is automatically legal, as if by some royal decree but this is not the case.  One way or the other, the President is not the fall guy for anybody except maybe in the most extreme circumstances.

These OPSEC violations have given rise to much debate as we head into the coming election season.  Political Action Committees are producing videos to demonize the Obama administration.  I would advise people to be highly skeptical about these types of campaigns.  The White House has a political agenda and so does groups like OPSEC.  More on that at a later date…

Further confusing matters is “Mark Owen”, real name Matt Bissonnette, who has written his own first hand account of the raid in “No Easy Day”.  Word has it that Matt was given the boot from SEAL Team Six’s Red Squadron not long after the Bin Laden raid, possibly causing some bad blood.  There is also speculation that Matt has come on some hard times financially leading him to chase a seven figure payday.  Don’t tell us the money is for charity because that doesn’t give you a free pass.  This is reminiscent of what I have heard about another controversial book called “Inside Delta Force” by Eric Haney who is purported to have written the book as a way to compensate after a number of bad investments.

Delta

With leaks coming from both the White House and within SEAL Team Six, the perception in the public and within the military is that the Navy’s most elite unit is now becoming worthless for covert operations.  Maybe it is time for Admiral McRaven to be told to lock down his boys until they can be brought under control.  I know a number of SEALs who epitomize the quiet professional moniker and those who are talking are in the minority.  A few months ago, I would have said that the publicity surrounding the OBL raid is not SEAL Team Six’s fault but this is no longer the case.

The publishing of a blow by blow account of the raid so soon after the event itself, with soldiers still in theater, still conducting dangerous operations, is simply too much.  This book is a tipping point and will result in blowback that will give the entire Special Operations community two black eyes.  I served in the 75th Ranger Regiment and 5th Special Forces Group and worked alongside Delta and other JSOC units.  I usually don’t engage in USASOC vs. NSW debates but even I have to say, if Delta Force or Rangers had conducted this raid then the situation would never have gotten this out of control.

At SOFREP we walk a fine line at times, but Brandon and I are careful not to blow the lid on TTP’s and active operations.  We give our take on what is already open source, but we are not digging into classified operations and we are not interested in “exposing” operators.  We are aware that we are a part of SOF being in the public eye, we created this website to help crush some of the misconceptions about Special Operations and to present our units in a positive light.  When things are really desperate, we do engage in some blue on blue and take shots at our own people.

This is one of those times.

  

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1SG_LEO_200
1SG_LEO_200 5pts

First off I'd like to say I love this blog, and as much as I love the mystery of operations like this best let my and others imagination fill in. OPSEC needs to be on a need to know basis, I haven't dealt with top secret info but I've worked In Law Enforcement as an "Explorer" basically like JROTC (get your laughs out now) and was very young in a tight knit community and quite often I'd see things that involved people I knew or some pretty intense things riding with officers and assisting them on the regular we usually ended up getting treated just like another officer with certain restrictions after a while (older now and currently pursing LE career). Anyways we were basically had a non-disclosure policy and it was with good reason, yeah it's tempting to talk about whatever stuff you see but you gotta think about others safety first, I mean isn't that part of working in any service? To protect others? I mean this guy basically pimped himself out, I didn't find it "cool" at all, I refused to buy it but my dad bought a copy (he's very uh "civilian") and I explained to him what OPSEC was and how this guy just threw it out the window. I'm reading parts of it and compared to other military books I've read in the past even the way it's written just seams fluffed up and wrong. I mean I don't know if this caused any severe repurcussions to men still in the theater but let's say some Ranger Platoon was still In the theater and they heard about this book! It'd be like getting pissed on 8,000 miles away by some guy who wants to cash in his story's and sit in a bar with a girl on his lap talking about how bad ass he is...it's just not what id expect from a "quiet professional", maybe CAG will get chosen over DEVGRU in the future more, I find CAG more interesting personally but that's not to say ones better. Some Marine came up to me and obviously wanted to debate about branches and he said "yeah Delta is getting phased out in favor of SEAL Team 6" and I didn't even respond at the notion, he was real boot and didn't have an MOS even related Special Warfare but you know what as long as people think Delta or whomever is "getting phased out" that just helps Delta be all the more low key and thus even MORE effective, assumption is the mother of all fuck ups. Anyways thanks for this post I'm glad the SOF community could pitch in and thank you for your service as always! Would like to hear what ya think in response...

SEAL76
SEAL76 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

@1SG_LEO_200 Charlie Beckwith who was the first CO of  DELTA wrote a book about DELTA. Eric Haney wrote a book about DELTA. Pete Blaber wrote a book about DELTA. Numerous SF guys have written books about their experience. Lets not pretend that opsec hasn't been violated by DELTA or SF. 


RVN SF VET
RVN SF VET 5pts

@SEAL76 @1SG_LEO_200 Blue Light and then Delta appeared in Congressional Appropriations hearings somewhere between 1968 and 1971 .It was part of my job to read both the Senate and House Defense hearings. By combining the 4 hearings (2 Senate and 2 House) you can synthesize classified line items. The opposition spends a great deal of time doing this. You just think some things are not known. The public at large doesn't know - the opposition knows.

1SG_LEO_200
1SG_LEO_200 5pts

I wasn't suggesting CAG or SF hasn't had any leaks nor that Eric Haney or Beckwith book's weren't significant as I've read them both, it's been a while but they were written some 20+ years later if I recall and while that doesn't make violating the rules any better I think kissing and telling about a mission to kill UBL in great detail is pretty much a gigantic fuck up. I'm not trying to start some childish DEVGRU vs CAG aruement since we all will bleed on that flag to keep those stripes red but to my knowledge CAG has been pretty damn quiet lately or maybe they just get lumped in the press with general SF units can't say for sure. It just seams that I hear about DEVGRU way more than I'd like to in the press, probably just the sheer excitement and power of a mission to kill UBL be echo'ed over and over again but if I were at USSOCOM I'd be working pretty hard to get the boys at DEVGRU incognito and reiterate the importance of OPSEC, I know you guys don't need to hear about OPSEC and this Matt guy is just one who slipped through the cracks but there's gotta be something done. Anyways ill have to refresh my self on what Eric Haney wrote In addition to this No Easy day book I'm reading, really just skimming it and some parts are really just insane to write about. I think if you wanna write about declassified stuff that's fine or better yet write fiction based off declassified missions, keeps people's interest from getting them where they shouldn't be and might actually help OPSEC.

SEAL76
SEAL76 5pts

@1SG_LEO_200  The very fact that DELTA/CAG, SEAL TEAM SIX/DEVGRU were confirmed to exist by whoever did it was a violation of OPSEC. After that the door was left wide open. Can't do anything about it now except hope for more common sense all around.

SEAL76
SEAL76 5pts

We have pretty much beat this horse to death. DEVGRU did it and we all know it. We can't unknow it. Maybe next time everyone involved will remember OPSEC. We can only hope.

jct95
jct95 5pts

Honestly, I'm trying to restrain myself from going full on Internet nerd - but I have to agree with the un named DevGru operator on this one. I recently spoke to a member of 5th group, he laughed at the mention of this website - especially when it concerned tier 1 units. All I have to say.

JackMurphyRGR
JackMurphyRGR moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @jct95 Thanks for your input.

jct95
jct95 5pts

 @JackMurphyRGR Eh, good reply. 

shakeyerboobs
shakeyerboobs 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

"A few months ago, I would have said that the publicity surrounding the OBL raid is not SEAL Team Six’s fault but this is no longer the case."

 

It's still not the case.  It all comes back to statements made by the President and Vice President on that Sunday evening in May.  The buck stops there.  Further, ask yourself who leaked the role and identity of the Pakistani doctor, who is now in prison as a foreign (i.e. U.S) agent, and rightly so.  There was no need for the U.S. govt. to give him up.  There's your TTP, and your sources and methods rolled into one.

JackMurphyRGR
JackMurphyRGR moderator 5pts

 @shakeyerboobs The doctor was never a source, hence why he was given up.

Hasbeen
Hasbeen 5pts

I've hardly met anyone who know's what CCT is, even if you spell it out for them!  That's quit professionals ;-)

SEAN SPOONTS
SEAN SPOONTS 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

"US Holds Off on Suit Against Bin Laden Raid Book." http://www.military.com/daily-news/2012/08/31/us-holds-off-on-suit-against-bin-laden-raid-book.html?comp=1198882887570&rank=1

JuliaHugoRachel1
JuliaHugoRachel1 5pts

@SEAN SPOONTS

Wow, they upped the stakes by fast forwarding the release date. This feels  VERY political.

 

"We didn't particularly feel fond about Obama......"

 

He can't evade the fact he went around the confidentiality agreement. However  "My CIC talked, so I should Be able to" May hold water in high court arguments.  Whomever said legals' sharpen your pencils was sure right.

 

Why do I smell a criminal case as well as a civil case? Maybe my senses are  off.

 

 

OpSec101
OpSec101 5pts

ars technica discussion on the book: http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1181520

JuliaHugoRachel1
JuliaHugoRachel1 5pts

 @OpSec101 I go with Brandons TV appearance and everything he said over this article.

 

russ662
russ662 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

"The large majority of men who volunteered to serve in Special Forces did so knowing they would live in a secret world where simply knowing about a successful mission was one’s reward. There would be no bragging rights. There was no phalanx of media to tell our story.

It was Special Forces, operating in the dark, far away from public knowledge and snoopy reporters.

This was the method of operation for the Quiet Professions."

 

 

JuliaHugoRachel1
JuliaHugoRachel1 5pts

 @russ662 This may be a debatable 1st amendment right.We will dee if the DOJ and Supreme Court shut the book down. I love it that Spielberg won't touch it. believe it or not, Holywood is not keen on this book.

 

  I know what confidentiality agreements I have on my hard drive and those that I have signed and they are clearly airtight to prevent this sort of book. I am just stumped at his behavior. Thus, my legitimate (not sarcastic) statement on this thread about wanting to either look at a brain scan on this guy or do a full psych evaluation. What on Earth was he thinking? Or was he?

 

OpSec101
OpSec101 5pts

New details about "No Easy Day": http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/28/no-easy-day-bin-laden-raid-book_n_1837947.html

OpSec101
OpSec101 5pts

I think, as a friend of mine said, that "the publisher is dirty". "No Easy Day" was (IMO not) "purchased in an NYC bookstore". It, or excerpts, (linked, above) were leaked before release date by the publisher, possibly before it was even cleared. For shame, Penguin Books, for shame.

JackMurphyRGR
JackMurphyRGR moderator 5pts

 @OpSec101 No, they give out advance copies and then the reviewers sell them to took stores to sell used because they don't give a shit about the release date.  That is how Huffington Post go a hold of an advance copy.

OpSec101
OpSec101 5pts

Speilberg drops option on "No Easy Day: http://www.nypost.com/p/pagesix/osama_tale_glitch_gag99XXbQ4f6UziOQkJjVJ

OpSec101
OpSec101 5pts

I find it interesting that egos still continue to clash between SOF. It seems to me that we're all fighting for the same goals & endgame. Granted, internal U.S. LE (FBI, DHS, CIA, etc.) have always had issues cooperating, but a lot of that "seems" to have been put aside to focus on the "bigger picture"- terrorism both internal and external. SOF would certainly do well to learn by cooperative examples and not play "Team vs. Team". More would be accomplished, with less SNAFUS, if egos and the attendant BS were put aside for the betterment of the Greater Good. I'm still not convinced that the ruckus surrounding the upcoming "tell all" book isn't just a rather silly (but masterful) P.R. Ploy & everyone in the upper echelons is in on the joke but us, the civilians. Time will tell, especially when (IMO) advance copies show that this is all commonly known knowledge of the OBL Raid & nothing that should have wadded panties in the first place. If this is the case, then it's managed to make for interesting discussion, but when the next "tell all" book from an ex-SOF Op comes out, most of us will call it like it is: Much ado about absolutely nothing. My role in this discussion has been "devil's advocate" because I feel that "The Great Oz" behind the curtain is actually a grinning P.R. Rep, and simply, nothing more. Great, civil discussion all, this has been superb, with lots of insightful posts.

JackMurphyRGR
JackMurphyRGR moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @OpSec101 Pump your brakes.  There is a a huge amount of cooperation in SOF.  This is not about egos, this is a very real situation in which an operator decided to cash in and fucked his unit over.  Even if the book is filled with fluff and BS (which it will) the author has exposed himself and his family to a fatwa and in the process managed to expose active duty ST6 operators to media scrutiny and god knows what else.  No, this is not about egos...

OpSec101
OpSec101 5pts

@JackMurphyRGR Jack. I misspoke a bit. I'm aware there's lots of field cooperation between SOF & without it we wouldn't have come so far. I was referring to the finger-pointing I've read about since this controversy started, by the higher-ups. The author exposing his family to a fatwa, well, that's a horrible choice, now he has to live with it. How this escaped going through the "proper channels" mystifies me more than a little bit, maybe the SOP will be revamped because of this clusterfuck. Respectfully, I'm curious as to how the author has, to quote you: "managed to expose active duty ST6 operators to media scrutiny"? Is that by bringing attention to ST6 by publishing this book? I'm just unsure of what exactly you mean. @engelbrad I'll read the book, but I'll borrow it from a library, I will not buy it. What the author did was unprofessional, unethical, and I won't support his effort financially.

JackMurphyRGR
JackMurphyRGR moderator 5pts

 @TomRyan  @OpSec101  @engelbrad There is more to it than that but I think it would be extremely reckless of me to elaborate.

engelbrad
engelbrad 5pts

 @JackMurphyRGR  @OpSec101

 Are you going to read the book?

JuliaHugoRachel
JuliaHugoRachel 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @engelbrad  @JackMurphyRGR  @OpSec101 I will never buy it or read it. I know the question was not directed at me, but I'll tell you as a patriot, NO WAY. I would however, Like to look at the guy who wrote its brain in an autopsy. He either has glial cell damage, lesions or some sort of brain damage. He just is not thinking straight. Unless, we do not have the full story.

 

RVN SF VET
RVN SF VET 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @OpSec101 "SOF would certainly do well to learn by cooperative examples and not play "Team vs. Team".

Why do you feel that the tribes are in conflict? In Afghanistan and out of Djibouti and other places around the world the tribes work together or separately. The Tier One units often work with the Tier Two units and depend upon them. For the SEALs and Delta the Rangers are the QRF of choice. The SEALs with their ANA advisees have conducted joint operations with SF units and their ANA advisees.  Sometimes there are communications problems and SOP conflicts, but they do their best to work jointly. All SOF units bring AF CCT personnel with them when possible and sometimes they request that AF PJs accompany them on missions. All SOF forces in Afghanistan have had good working relationships with the CIA and the only real problems emanate from parochial desk jockeys back in DC. There is a big difference between jovial trash talk and working together. Oh, and when possible, everybody uses the 160th SOAR as a taxi and hopes they are available for rotary wing fire support.

 

Lastly, although everybody is called upon for direct action missions, each unit brings different talents to the task. Within each of these tribes, there are sub- units which further specialize in things like mountain climbing and HALO/HAHO. All these folks have elements under JSOC and all these tribes come under SOCOM. These guys all receive support from yet another Army activity and work with both the SAS and SBS. IMHO, the generals and admirals may get in pissing contests, but the guys at the point of the spear cannot afford it.

Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts

One over reaching point that has not been addressed, since the USN incorporated NSW into JSOC, do they now fall under the congressional oversight that the other branches live with?  Before JSOC the USN did not answer to Congress.  It could be argued that SEALS could be used in areas that required deniability and Congress would not even have jurisdiction.  Of course with JSOC in place this may be a moot point.  Any one out there know if I'm just totally Full of Shit on this?    

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Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts

 @notdrakebell  @Old PH2 I thought so.  I'm curious why any president would give up such a potent tool.  NSW and for that matter Force Recon fell under the Dept. of the USN and other than Congressional budgetary oversight had full reign to intervene militarily.  With POTUS direction of course.  I always felt that the USN was used by many presidents to personally settle accounts, off the books no questions asked.

chrishutch13
chrishutch13 5pts

 @Jaycel Adkins  @RVN SF VET  @Old PH2  @Canopylight  @notdrakebell

 I'm happy she was stripped of her career and find it disturbing that some of the comments I read tried to paint her as a heroine. I'm still unsure if the author of the article tried to or not, to me she came across incredibly arrogant.

RVN SF VET
RVN SF VET 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Old PH2  @Canopylight  @notdrakebell Look at his Washington assignments. He was in withe the neocons or similar and he conspired with them. And they are motivated by oil.

RVN SF VET
RVN SF VET 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Jaycel Adkins  @Old PH2  @Canopylight  @notdrakebell It struck me as odd as well. He also pointed out that she was socially active. It made me wonder if he was implying that there was some level of sexual harassment. I was hoping that we didn't still do Hoover-like things; but then there is the translator kicked out of the FBI's CTC when she pointed out that they were accepting phony translations. She hasn't worked as a translator since. She is an American citizen.

Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts

 @RVN SF VET  @Canopylight  @notdrakebell That explains why this feature is so sparingly used.  Thanks for the insight.  Still the dept. of the Navy has that whole plausible deniability, that politicians crave.  That WaPo article reeks of it.  A flag officer trying behind the scenes to "stir the pot." Almost Hollywood fiction?  

RVN SF VET
RVN SF VET 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Old PH2  @Canopylight  @notdrakebell In "The Annals" (before there was a Congressional Record) the details and progress on the construction of the Navy's ships was the subject of floor debate in the Continental Congress. In those days, the members knew what trunnels were and knew the source of the oak, etc. The money spent had better conform to their understanding of materials' costs. Likewise, they debated the location of frontier forts because they had fought Indians on the terrain in question. The Congress' control of the purse is the leverage they have used to inquire into anything they want to. How do you think they are able to have intelligence committees that review stuff they should not be trusted to know? The Navy was never exempt from scrutiny. However, the Navy is unique in one respect. The CNO is the only head of Service who has any operational control at all over his assets - deployed ships. SOCOM/JSOC control the Navy's special operators and the Marine's MARSOC. But, special ops submarines and similar are negotiated support unless chopped to a command. Can the President reach down and give Team Six or Delta a direct tasking - sure. But he would have to give a few flag/general officers a heads up that he was taking them off the board.

Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts

 @Jaycel Adkins  @Old PH2  @RVN SF VET  @Canopylight  @notdrakebell Maybe the whole "Ian Flemming" sexy intelligence/spy thing to get more readership?  Wish there was more info, good on her if she did pull the rug on that.  Tough to know the truth, with out all the info.

Jaycel Adkins
Jaycel Adkins 5pts

 @Old PH2  @RVN SF VET  @Canopylight  @notdrakebell 

 

No worries, I'm glad that @RVN SF VET called it out, since I missed it. 

 

But reading it was an odd experience, why did the reporter keep on mentioning how 'attractive' people were? Taking the creative nonfiction angle a bit too much. 

Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts

 @Jaycel Adkins  @RVN SF VET  @Canopylight  @notdrakebell Very Interesting article Jaycel, nice background on Ms. Todd but a little light on detail, of course it would be.  What is remarkable is that these types of things occur so infrequently.  Although it appears that the bell curve is on an upward path lately.  Since Smedley Butler we have not faced a real threat of a Military Coup.  I think it would ultimately be disadvantageous for the Military Industrial Complex and no one is stupid enough to bite the hand that feeds them. Hell if any thing look at guys like Curtis LeMay that fed the beast.  Ho much do we spend on DoD?  No conspiracies here... These are not the droids your looking for.....     

Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts

 @RVN SF VET  @Old PH2  @Canopylight  @notdrakebell I've always felt that it was the prudence of the Secretary of the Navy that prevented too much adventurism.  Does any one recall when the USN became subject to Congressional oversight?  If I recall correctly the only oversight Congress had over DoN while I served was budgetary, and they also answered to BRAC.  Things change and I'm trying to figure out how much.

 

The use of USN and USMC by the president for Direct Action is one of the options I was wondering about.  In the past it could occur and no one outside the Chain of command would be the wiser.  Just curious if that has changed? 

Jaycel Adkins
Jaycel Adkins 5pts

 @RVN SF VET  @Old PH2  @Canopylight  @notdrakebell 

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/magazine/sunk/2012/08/21/96209788-cebd-11e1-aa14-708bac2c7ee9_story.html

RVN SF VET
RVN SF VET 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Old PH2  @Canopylight  @notdrakebell No, that's not correct. All the Services are subject to the same poor Congressional oversight and all have the same vertical relationships withing DOD. Although the law has changed to insert the Secretary of Defense into the chain of command, the President can reach down and deal with whomever he wants. The President can pick up the phone and talk to any of his Unified Combatant Commanders. Historically, CINCPAC  has had a great deal of power both militarily and diplomatically. I have no idea how that might have changed; but technology has given the clowns in Washington the ability to interfere and micromanage like never before. From time to time, our Tier One units may have operated under a Presidential Finding directly for the President, but those operations should never come to light.

 

Check the Sunday Washington Post for a story about how the Commander of the Fifth Fleet thought he could start a war with Iran on his own with the passive support of the CENTCOM  Commander, Admiral Fallon and some unnamed figures in DC. The story reads like "Seven Days In May".

Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts

 @Canopylight  @Old PH2  @notdrakebell That's an over simplification.  They officially only answer to POTUS, historically they have been used, Banana Wars, Lebanon, official entry into Vietnam, by presidents to solve a problem.  The framers of our constitution made sure the Army had checks and balances in the form of Public oversight by Congress & Senate.  The constitution is written in such a way to prevent the president from becoming a despot.  The framers believed that a Navy could never be used to overthrow or maintain control of our country.  

 

Simply put, yes the Dept. of the Navy can start a fight without political approval from anyone other than POTUS.  They answer directly to him.  Yet another reason for Carrier battle groups and force projection.  Big stick at it's purest!   

Canopylight
Canopylight 5pts

 @Old PH2  @notdrakebell I'm really confused at what you're getting at. Are you saying the Navy and Marines can basically go to war without Congress?

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JuliaHugoRachel1
JuliaHugoRachel1 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @TomRyan  @JackMurphyRGRIf I was a mom raising a DEVGRU and a CAG, I'd bop them both over the head. Both are dog darned worthy. Both are special. As far as meat, theres always that debate.

 

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The Midnight Philosopher
The Midnight Philosopher 5pts

 @engelbrad  @TomRyan  @Matt2  "Don't Trust a big butt and a smile" - Bell, Biv, Devoe

engelbrad
engelbrad 5pts

 @TomRyan  @Matt2

 Cool post TomRyan! I guess a pictures of a pretty girl from an adult site can get you alot!!! lol Thanks for sharing.

LauraWalkerKC
LauraWalkerKC moderator 5pts

 @Jaycel Adkins  @TomRyan  @Matt2 Tom's Robin Sage experiment is legendary.

Jaycel Adkins
Jaycel Adkins 5pts

 @TomRyan  @Matt2 That's amazing, and rather disturbing. 

JackMurphyRGR
JackMurphyRGR moderator 5pts

 @Matt2  @TomRyan Did you trick them into a book deal as well?

LauraWalkerKC
LauraWalkerKC moderator 5pts

 @TomRyan  @JackMurphyRGR  @Matt2 lol I just saw this.  I still suffer from the Robin Sage fallout.  There are a lot of guys who are disappointed to find out I am just not that interested in hearing their secrets =P

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