Krav Maga is a very effective method of self defense, however be warned, what you learn as Krav Maga here in the US is a “watered-down” version of the system.
Krav Maga is a very effective method of self defense, however be warned, what you learn as Krav Maga here in the US is a “watered-down” version of the system.
I am going to take the liberty and resurrect this one.
I dont believe that all KM here is watered down. This is the same across the board with all of the other "systems" under the sun no matter what they are. The truth is, everyone is different and the only thing that I can consider effective is something that can be represented and executed in the most effective and efficient manner. Much of what we find out there bogs us down with techniques that only seem to confuse things worse once we have experienced the "dump". It looks and works great in practice but loses us the big game.
The tools gained from the time I spent training in the different facets of the martial umbrella (Wing Chun, JKD, Muay Thai, Ninjutsu ,Kenpo, Chin Na, et al.)are not useless or watered down persay but rather they were missing something....something is being hidden or not represented up front. True, the secrets are all revealed in the end and what one finds is that these systems are all pretty brutal under the right conditions and applications but how long does it take to learn how to break the human anatomy joint by joint, limb by limb or to disrupt the central nervous system and render the human brain and body inactive? How much time should one have to invest in order to be afforded the tool of "violence" which is essentially what we are all looking for when seeking out such things?
If its just physical and mental conditioning that one is looking for then any of the martial applications will do, hell good ole fashioned wrestling is almost unmatched in physical and mental conditioning IMHO. But thats not what I am looking for and I know that is not the motivation behind the the readers here. I believe the application must be immediately actionable upon receipt. Dynamic immersion in an asocial training environment is a key element to effective combative training, again IMHO. I believe that this is accomplished by reinforcing the principles which by definition is "simple truth".
A single principle can father thousands of techniques, so to focus on a thousand things that spawned from a simple truth is basically working backwards and only setting oneself up for dissapointment or worse, self destruction. This is not dogma, this is a fact that many people do not wish to face, especially after countless hours and hard earned money has been donated to something that could cause you to self destruct just when you need it most. I myself am my own posterchild for this fact in that my investments have failed me in the past and I am fortunate to be alive and well and able to reroute myself in the right direction. I have found in HTH the same which I have found in shooting and that is there is no magic bullet but there are guarantees. I personally dont want possibilities or probabilities even if they are 95%, I want a 200% guarantee. I have found that the only tool that can afford you that guarantee when its needed most is the principle of violence. This tool can be wielded with guaranteed precision and all that is required is the knowledge of the simple principles of anatomy, physics and physiology. Just like with a gun the body can be used as a projectile that is crashed into vital targets, targets that are weak in all humans regardless or size, stature or prowess. It is my belief that regardless of what it is, it must offer prinicples rather than techniques and these principles must be rooted in the science of anatomy, physiology , physics and yes, violence.
Sudden, violent, gross motor action based on the principles of anatomy, physiology and physics that is immediately actionable upon recept and easily transferrable to others upon receipt.
Of course, this would crush the industry becuase it would make all the martial meat on the bone open to the public , free of charge and virtually tranferrable on the spot anywhere and everywhere. I believe it should be free becuase there is no secret or magic behind any of it. I am of the belief that in this day and age of high tech gadgets and gizmos nothing gets the job done more brutally and violently that a rock to the face and its this belief that brings me full circle back to a primitive, caveman, gross motor combative strategem.
@8trav31 I don't quite know how it is watered down but I do know a Colorado patrol man saved himself from knife attack when he stopped a car for speeding ticket.
My experience with 10 years of Krav Maga, submission techniques in BJJ and Judo have lesser chance to save you from knife attacks. Once I start to play BJJ against rubber knife, I get stabbed alot.
No Krav instruction available here. Cursory research on Google and YouTube suggests that Aiki Jitsu is very similar. Thoughts from those who are experienced in either? Thx.
Don't be so quick to dismiss Krav Maga. One website for a trainer "north of Boston" states: "The objective of Krav Maga training is to teach individuals how to instantly change from a passive state of awareness to a highly alert and aggressive one, and to be able to perform under stress." (Sound familiar?) Compared to many other types of martial arts, even beginner-level Krav Maga is extremely focused and targeted.
Note that there are 5 levels, and methods taught at beginner and intermediate levels may appear "softer" than what is taught to law enforcement, military and special operators. For example, gun or edged-weapon disarm techniques are not part of the beginner-level training, but that does not mean they aren't effective.
Not to diss Uri, but the video posted with this article doesn't show a lot of detail. There are a number of good videos and clips on Youtube (including a full episode of Fight Quest from Discovery Channel devoted to Krav) that break down detailed drills and responses to threats taught even at beginner level.
@Sonnys Mom I don't think anyone disimissing Krag Maga. It has its strengths and weaknesses like any other art. I would say that Krav Maga has great empty hand tactics, weapons disarming, and mindse. I also would say that Kali has far stronger Knife skills, both disarming and offensive use, being that they are the blade experts. Systema is strong in its relaxation, training mindset, shock wave stricks, learning to take hits(probably the best at this). The idea is to take the strengths of each and fill in the the weaknesses. You can only know so much about knife disarming without having an advanced knowledge and skill of it's offensive use.
@TACP Death On Call @Sonnys Thanks for the comparisons. Keep in mind, I am commenting as a civilian F who is considering where to get some training but as of now, knows absolutely nothing... :) Systema has a video on "clothing as a weapon"... completely unexpected! However, no one in the People's Republic of Mass is currently offering training...
My issue with most "self defense" martial arts is that they seem to assume that your fighting a novice. In real life, you can expect someone to know more than you and be in better shape to use it. Not to mention the adrenaline from the fight can render some strikes useless,I mean anything not causing "injury" seems like a waist of time. Ironically most self defense styles work under the assumption that causing a little pain will keep them from chasing you down, not to say that it does not work at all. I mean a kick in the balls hurts, for a little while.... guess what I'm saying is that most self defense (civilian at-least) seem to nice to the attacker.
I think higher level of Darren's organization's aggressive. Not the nature of curriculum but really depends on who you partner up with. I partnered up with an Israeli guest who's done military Krav Maga and I felt the "rules of engagement" was clearly different. He ended up poking my eye lids with rubber knife during a counter attack practice and this was irritating but gave him thumbs up.
It may be that I have only observed and trained with Darren's civilian instruction and not his military instruction. believe that all reality/combat based systems have something to offer. I have trained in former SEAL Ken Goode's PCR that is systema based. I want to get a higher Kali instructor level then I currently have and go through Krav Maga and Systema Instructor courses and integrate what they all have to offer
@TACP Death On Call The guy who created that system has been exposed as a fraud, at least with respect to his military service and to whom he has trained. I have no opinion on how good he is or on how good his system is. But just putting that out here for full disclosure.
Darren Levine's Krav seems soft to me, and Kali has the best weapons/knife skills and grappling that has a weapons context. I have take training knives to a brazilian who is a black belt under the Gracies and was the first non-gracie to teach at their school in Brazil and they can't handle the knife tactics of Kali. I like Kali/Silat grappling and have found that it is way more devistating then BJJ, but alot of it you can't use in mma, which I left years ago
"I like Kali/Silat grappling and have found that it is way more devistating then BJJ, but alot of it you can't use in mma, which I left years ago"
You're kidding right??? Have you actually grappled a day in your life?
@TACP Death On Call What I've seen with Darren and KMWW is that some of their more advanced weapons techniques seem a little dated when compared to KM Global/Eyal. I'm definitely not going to get into a pissing match over which group is more effective. It is widely known and understood that Imi trained in Kali, Judo, BJJ (even trained with Helio) in order to build the system. No system is perfect and in order to stay relevant it must adapt.
On a side note, I totally agree with you on the BJJ/Knife thing and will kick that up a notch to suggest that they are behind in gun defenses as well. Even the Gracies will tell you that any belt earned by any system, including theirs, will only cover 2 inches of your ass - it's up to you to cover the rest
@Coriolis effect Did you guys ever train car jackings/hostage scenarios? Some of those are my favorite. As far as weapons go, I enjoy training with them and learned early and often that I hope I never encounter a blade on the street . Talk about surprise and total destruction in a hurry! At our school we supplement our training with Kali and Gracie Jiu Jitsu defenses, among others. Those are just the main 3 we focus on...besides, it's fun as hell to cross-train!
Shalom, Uri, and L'Shana Tova. Having trained in both Israel and the US, one of the most evident differences I found was the sparring--the amount and the intensity--and also learning to apply techniques in more realistic and high stress scenarios.
Uri, what are your thoughts on the Hisardut system?
@Sandman246 Shana Tova to you too. Hisardut means survival in hebrew, I haven't tried that system, but I've heard good things.
Fundamental principles of Krav Maga
Avoid traumas! Attentively count the risk related to implementation of certain motion and try to avoid a danger every time, when it maybe.
The use of defensive technique is especially underlined in a Крав-мага! Крав-мага was worked out as continuation of natural reflexes of body.
These natural to the reaction of body were farther more in detail studied, analysed, sharp-cut and adjusted to application by being on the defensive in certain situations.
Defence and counter-attack on кротчайшим trajectories and maximum aiming produced from any home position, comporting with safety and maximal comfort for implementation.
React correctly, according to the folded circumstances, attentively соизмеряя nature of your counteraction with the degree of force of the conducted attack(on purpose to avoid unnecessary traumas). Lay about by vulnerable installments of body, to win over an opponent.
Use for a self-defence and counter-attack any objects that you will find out near at hand during attacking you. There are not rules and technical limitations in a Крав-мага, it is not sport, and system of self-defence.
Training principles in a Krav Maga it is been: transition from simple to difficult, from base techniques to more difficult variations, from separate receptions to serial work, from base techniques to improvisations depending on the dynamics of development of situation.
Shimon Peres, president of Israel : Two main dangers for today is war with the use of reactive rockets(rockets do not respect borders) and collision with the use of knives(because terrorism does not respect borders also). In war with the use of rockets a determinative are technologies, and in a collision with terrorism are personalities.By them Сде-Ор, light to him memory, worked out the battle method of Крав-мага and strategy for him. This strategy does a self-defence possible even for people that not necessarily are at the course of duty. Therefore, even if you alone remained on a battle-field, a battle not necessarily will be lost. In our days, in the epoch of escalation of violence, this strategy is unsurpassed.
A most value in this system has division of psychological preparation, allowing to occupying to fix a spirit. The special methods, aim of that to recreate a situation at that a man must battle for the life, are used for this purpose. Educating includes making of ability of estimation of situation, locality and potentially dangerous circumstances yet to beginning of fight. Studying is show the physical and verbal methods of avoidance of violence wherein it maybe.
That, who survives wins in a fight. Therefore support in a study is done on a fight in the worst terms and unprofitable positions, in particular: against a few opponents, one-arm or protecting the third person(for example child), and similarly against the armed opponents. Training is conducted in the conditions of maximally close to reality of street. For example, for realisticness loud music can be used, элетрошокер, devices for making of artificial smoke, that allows to learn to ignore distracting terms and concentrated on the analysis of situation. For the increase of realism before working off defence devasting physical exercises can be conducted, training can pass on locality with different relief(asphalt, water, sensitive to cold sand), in putting restraint terms, with a bandage on eyes. An accent is done on the simulation of the real fight so, as far as it maybe in the conditions of training
@ufridman It's AWESOME to see Krav getting some stage time on SOFREP!!! I wish it was offered in our school system as an alternate option to PE.
A moment becomes most comfortable for neutralization of arising up danger, when a forward assumes the least loss of the attention focusing even. As a rule, it takes place, when he talks, orders or heeds to the entreaties about mercy.
Man or woman, when you're attacked by two guys like that, she gave solid advise. There's a class offered at the local JCC. I'll check it out. I've studied other systems and some are better than other in the "real" world. Thanks for the video Uri.
Interesting. They are saying Krav Maga in the US is watered down. I must remember to mention this to David Shaw or one of his instructors next time I see them. I'm sure they'd be interested to learn that.
@GregoryRush not all schools are the same. Some of the instructors in the US have been trained in Israel and are as good as the instructors in there. What I was referring was that the Krav Maga taught in the IDF is way more violent and aimed to inflict maximum damage, as opposed to being defensive.
@Old PH2 @ufridman @GregoryRush Yes, actually there is a way to determine them. The Wingate Institute is one place to start and KM Global is another. I believe KM World Wide maintains (or at one time maintained) a list of certified instructors for these vetting purposes.
I've been affiliated with a couple of the major organizations over the past decade. My main concern was receiving as many new tactics and techniques as possible. After all, KM is an open system and continuously evolves based on MO, changing threats and tactics, etc.
My teaching certifications are through Eyal Yanilov, though I was introduced to Krav and received my first level of certifications from Darren Levine at KMWW. I completely agree with @ufridman regarding the methods used and taught to the IDF versus what is taught over here to your average soccer mom. I could keep going on this topic as Krav Maga has been a part of my life since the late 90's.
However, I view myself as practitioner who happens to teach every once in a while.
PS - in my travels, I've come across some AWESOME instructors as well as those that look as if they just stepped out of a comic novel and are wearing more tactical gear than Rambo. I tend to stay away from those types - no need in vetting them. After all, there's only 1 Rambo ;)
OK, I know one of these days I really have to take a self defense class or 3 but to inject a little levity - when I watched the video and listened to the woman's comments about the three places to hit, I couldn't help but remember Miss Congeniality and Sandra Bullock's self defense demo as her "talent". SING - solar plexus, instep, nose, groin. Now I know where they got that :)
I would love to go to Israel and train in Krav Maga. I believe there is a few former Israeli commandos in the US who teach though
I am a fan of Krav Maga, but a very effective less watered down style is Kali. Also, known as the deadliest art, especially the Sayoc Kali guys, it is also taught at Chris Kyles Craft Int.. Or take as much as you can of Krav Maga, Kali, and Russian Systema, all designed around combat, though Kali is the most brutal
@TACP Death On Call Kali (and other systems stemming from it) is some seriously bad ass shit. Maul Mornie taught a seminar that my main training partner and I attended. While he teaches his family's version of Silat, I was still thoroughly impressed. He showed us some pretty intense drills to implement in our training. I loved the prison riot drill!
I'm also a huge fan of the Dog Brothers. Any time I think about the sewing machine or the drift shot, I'm especially grateful for guys like Crafty Dog who take older techniques and break them down and/or simplify them (such as the Dog Catcher) so that we can quickly educate our practitioners and update their toolkit with a simple and effective solution to a very aggressive and deadly problem.
If your ever lucky enough to train with an Israeli who is an expert in Krav Maga, DO IT! Don't hesitate! Krav Maga is the most PRACTICAL discipline there is, and if you doubt it, do some research. It was designed as a solution for REAL-WORLD situations.
Like stated, the U.S. version is watered-down because the Israelis don't give up the "good stuff" too easily from what I understand ,which makes sense....kinda hard to counter/perry a move you don't know. Alot of the moves I've seen are defensive, could just imagine the offensive moves. Krav Maga is still relatively new compared to other martial arts and originally,they too where closely guarded techniques.
@Icegator Agreed! I grew up wrestling greco- and freestyle, competed until my early 20s, and studied four other disciplines. NOTHING is as applicable, as useful, and as practical as Krav. Speed, swiftness, violence of action, all the things we know works, operationally. And it's "designed" to me malleable to situation needs.
You know, Karate was formed like around 1400 and it was closely guarded (especially from the west) until after WW2 when American military started learning it .
These instructors where poor after the war and started compromising their morals out of necessity....survival. Alot of other instructors where pissed and death threats where made (don't know if carried out).
Now can you imagine if some former Israeli or someone else fully trained in Krav Maga started divulging hardcore secrets?? LOL, now your pissing off Mossad!! Wouldn't want to be that guy!