The Grey Area: Why SEALs, & Other SOF Guys Secretly Consult

 @CBSenior  @Allwet  @SEAL76  @Tango9  @majrod  @BrandonWebb  No question about that. I would never begrudge a member of the armed services any good deal they get. The pay pension and benefits package that service personnel get is based on job performance and longevity. Representatives and Senators not so much.

 @StormR  @majrod  @SEAL76 At one time, I think CHP (California Highway Patrol) was the most dangerous law enforcement job to have in the country. The things I've seen in that department are over the top dangerous.

 @SEAL76  @ptd175  @majrod I spent a short time as president of my local federal LEO union and found that I mostly represented officers from corrupt managers.  Those officers that screwed up were required by law to be represented but in those cases I basically just ensured that their legal and civil rights weren't violated and advised them to get a lawyer.  I would not go out of my way to protect a "dirty" officer.  On the other hand I've seen officers accused of being dirty that weren't and officers being set up to take a fall for political, administrative  and personal reasons by higher management.  Unions at the local level can serve a good purpose, but I have no use for national unions.

 @majrod  @ptd175  @SEAL76 First responder unions a generally good at the local level, it's the national level where you find most of the corruption.

 @majrod  @ptd175  @SEAL76 Progressive agenda comes from the people who teach the teachers. College professors who are socialist or communists brainwash impressionable kids. Of course the kids are easily influenced because their parents never took the time to instil proper values. They were too busy making sure that their kids had everything they wanted, like Xboxes, iphones, and cable TV. They spent their time hauling them from one activity to the next and coddling them. Progressive agendas are part of the NEA and AFT's agenda but they don't control curriculum. The states boards of education and the local BOEs do.

 @SEAL76  @majrod If we didn't have teacher's unions then maybe lazy and inept teachers would be getting fired instead of young and/or energetic teachers with new ideas and methods of teaching but get laid off simply because they're the low man on the totem and no tenure.

 @majrod Granted I have limited experience in that I have taught in only one school district. The BOE and administration had the say on what books and curriculum would be taught. Teachers have had less and less input over the years. We were asked to evaluate three math book series and were told that the series we picked would be the one the board purchased. Never happened because they chose a fourth series that was never in play. I have heard numerous other teachers from different districts speak along the same lines. Superintendents are notorious for wasting money and expecting to be thought of as the smartest person in the room at all times. They are not leaders and many are horrible managers. I am spoiled by the leaders I had while a member of SEAL TEAM ONE I guess. Ok unions might share some blame but never in the district where I worked.

 @SEAL76  The Police, Border patrol, ATF and a myriad of other organizations aren't "companies"

Educational background isn't necessary to determine what to teach.  It is important to determine how to teach it. 

You can't lay all the blame for education being in the toilet on boards of ediucation and administrators and let the unions off scott free. 

Teachers unions have huge impacts on curriculums and teacher development.  I sense you are too close to the problem and personally involved to be objective.

 @majrod  @SEAL76 Because the military is not a company . Unions have there place. I can tell you that if unions hadn't fought for teacher tenure school boards would hire and fire at will just to save money. Most of my experience with school boards and superintendents has been that they want prestige and political power. School boards are a stepping stone to township or county office. It is hard to understand how school boards do their jobs when they are generally made up of people with no educational background other than they that went to school. Many of the board members are teacher haters. The fact that America's educational system is in the toilet is a testimony to the ineffectiveness of Boards of Education and overpaid administrators. Without unions experienced teachers would be sacrificed on the altar of fiscal responsibility.

 @SEAL76  If unions are so good why don't we have them in the military?

 @SEAL76  Good question.  There are several cities that have filed for bankruptcy or are on the verge.  Just watching the battle in Wisconsin over the last two years should be highly educational.  There was a lot of power there to the point that half of a states elected reps abandoned their duties and locked up a whole state for months and caused numerous recall elections.  Don't assume NJ which has a very strong governor is the rule for the nation. 

There's a lesson there... 

 @majrod How much power do unions really have in the public sector. With states, counties and towns in dire straits monetarily unions can't get contracts. The district I worked for has been without a contract for 3 years. Private sector unions have realized that they have often negotiated themselves out jobs. The auto industry is a prime example.

 @SEAL76  If unions were to disappear would we have abuse?   Maybe, maybe not.  We have a very litigious society.  What isn't a question is they are doing a lot of harm right now.  

Yep Congress is screwed up.  That doesn't excuse unions. 

 @ptd175  @majrod  @SEAL76 Unions as you say were founded to protect the workingman and women from the abusive labor practices of JP Morgan, Andrew Carnegie, John D. Rockefeller and the other Robber Barons of the old days. I believe that if the unions disappeared those abuses would return. Even with unions in place how many workers have retired only to find that their pensions and benefits have been just disappeared? I wouldn't count on the government to do anything for us given the state of then USA and the current POTUS and Congress. Those 535 mischief makers and miscreants who call themselves representatives of the people are more responsible for the mess we are in than any POTUS.

 @majrod  @ptd175 Teachers often have to risk their lives. You are aware of the number of school shootings that have occurred over the past several years. Students assault teachers at an alarming rate and teachers can't carry weapons. Principals and other administrators are usually too wimpy to do anything about it.

@majrod @SEAL76 I am 100% in agreement in regards to unions. At one point in history they had a place, however in today's world I feel they have less of a place. I am proud to work at a department that is union free and have voiced strong opposition to ever going to one. I knew when I started this career it was to serve my community, defend the state and federal constitutions, and protect the sheep in our society. It was not to make a large salary. I honestly despise police unions because they do tend to breed cover ups rather than encourage the integrity that LEO are suppose to exhibit. It is those instances that sicken me because the actions of a very slim few reflect poorly on the 99+% that do represent the badge with honesty, integrity and respect. Most in powerful police unions have lost meaning of what the thin blue line truly is. That we are then good and protectors in a dark world, not a brotherhood that does everything to cover up the bad actions of an officer. I know that you don't begrudge LEOs and I apologize for being a bit long winded, I just hate that a few tarnish the reputation and credibility of the many. It is especially hard for LEO because we are suppose to enforce the laws, be strong examples of good in the community and be pillars of trust. So when one does wrong it is magnified. I am sure you feel the same when the actions of the few bring negative light to the military, or any other profession.

 @ptd175  To expand and be specific about my opinion on unions..

I don't like them.  The time where out of control capitalists ran sweat shops required them.  The protective role of unions has largely been taken over by the Gov't and the unions have become organizations that serve their own interests not even the workers.  No easy solutions but the first step is for everyone to recongnize the truth and the problem if we are ever going to fix it.  Doubtful, some have been sucking at the gov't or union tit too long to be honest with themselves or anyone else.

I'd differentiate many first responder unions because of who they serve and I feel they operate at a higher moral awareness than other unions.  I don't begrudge any benefits the police and fire unions get for their people.  Very few jobs put their members at risk to serve others though we'd be remiss to not admit the blue code of silence and protecting one another can and has had a negative impact on occasion.

 @SEAL76  teachers unions in Jersey have gone to war with Gov Christie over juicy benefits.  Maybe Jersey is different but teachers unions have a HUGE impact on curriculum across the country.  It's not local school boards pushing the  progressive agenda in our schools nor minimizing the need for testing or fighting charter schools or school vouchers.

 @ptd175  Like I said, "I don't begrudge LEO."

 @SEAL76  @majrod

 While many LEO's, primarily larger agencies, have unions, there are also many that do not.  I work at an agency in which the city and I pay into a statewide hazardous duty system.  After 20 years you retire with 50% of your high 3 (yrs) and most officers from other states are amazed at how good our retirement it.  Recently they changed the retirement to 25 years until you can get your 50%.  Most of the agencies that have ridiculous retirements are in the northeast, at least from the contacts that I have made throughout my career.

With that being said I do think it is unacceptable that my 20 year retirement is the same as that of a 20 SOF operator.  I wear 30ish lbs of equipment 5 days a week 8-10 hrs a day and it does take a toll, but at least I go home to my family daily.  And between the extra physical toll from SWAT, fights, foot pursuits, being exposed to meth labs, and the mental tolls of 3 hrs with a mentally ill person, seeing murder victims, and performing first aid/CPR on people with gun shots wounds or having strokes, I in no way thinks it compares to what our SOF guys go through, especially in a 20 year career.  Unfortunately with the re-election of our current POTUS I feel that if anything it will get worse for all of our military.

One last thing, thank you to all of our veterans this weekend for the sacrifices that you have made to help make our nation what it is and defend our freedom.  Also a shout out to my younger brother who is wrapping up his fourth deployment to Afghanistan and will be home for Thanksgiving.

 @majrod  @IS1FiveO  @JHR  @JackMurphyRGR  @SEAL76 It's a fine line between helping out a fellow officer and being a snitch.  

 @SEAL76  @IS1FiveO  @JackMurphyRGR  @majrod It doesn't take much to be investigated for excessive force. A split lip and a struggle and before you know it there's blood everywhere and someone comes up at the end and sees all the blood and accuses you of brutality.  Give me a dixie cup full of blood and I can make it look like a mass murder took place.

 @SEAL76  @JHR  @JackMurphyRGR  @majrod It is the same with police unions as well, the perception of their strength was much more than it really is.  It just takes a few well publicized cases to make that happen.   

 @JHR  @JackMurphyRGR  @IS1FiveO  @majrod  @SEAL76 It was like that when I first became a LEO but not anymore.  With the younger generation it has become every man for himself.  Although there are still some isolated incidents. In the federal LE community there seems to be alot more politics and back stabbing to climb the ladder these days.

 @LauraKinCA  @majrod  @JHR  @JackMurphyRGR  @SEAL76 

Unions had thier time and place, but are now in existence strictly to enrich the organizers and the unions themselves.Right now we are quayside in Galveston Texas, at the end of the pier that will go unnamed (Ilied-pier 41), are 3 vehicles.

These vehicles are manned (not the correct term..)by some union employees so

a certain ship yard service can operate on the unionized city docks, they show daily , and sleep in their vehicles( 1 per vessel I  believe is the union requirement , and the line handlers are union as well) all day/all night. WTF?

Tip off the iceberg -just using a single tiny example.Talk about the oxygen thieves of the economy.........

and 76, we would have a lot less problems if we had more SEAL teachers!You might have to discipline more than a few parents as well.

 @SEAL76  @JHR  @JackMurphyRGR  @majrod

 Police and firefighters are generally barred from striking by law so the unions are not as powerful as other public sector unions.  They generally do two things well. First, they usually get their members pay that is commesurate with that of officers from similar departments.  Secondly, they do protect lazy, worthless officers.  Nothing much the good officers can do about that but it bothers us too.  Those officers are the people we are supposed to count on to back us up.

 @JHR  @JackMurphyRGR  @majrod  @SEAL76

 JHR, maybe I am mistaken but Jack posted an example of a police officer commiting a crime and killing someone.  He went on to say the officers cop buddies covered for him.  I read after that where you made your comment about blue covering blue.  It seemed to me you were saying officers cover dirty officers or they pay.

 @IS1FiveO and yet we must acknowledge that some in our organizations atke it too far.  There are police that have covered up petty crime because it was petty crime.  We both know that's a slippery slope.

At the Academy I saw some cadets handle the conflict between being loyal to one's peers and the honor code in less than productive ways.  Same in the Army.

Whenever we move to defend our group whether that is LEO, NCO, Officer, SEAL or branch we run the risk of placing loyalty above doing the right thing.  Heck, I've seen it plenty right here on SOFREP.

If we aren't aware of the trap we are more likely to fall into it.

 @JHR  @JackMurphyRGR  @SEAL76

 @SEAL76  @IS1FiveO  @JackMurphyRGR  @majrod

 If somebody called one of my fam dirty, you would not see my Irish temper but my Portuguese temper and hair flying. We have some mighty fine Blue in our fam.-) And, the entire forces are awesome - like family. Just like the fire fighters in our family and the Military. The agencies, Not So Much.

 @IS1FiveO  

 As a show of personal support for my friends in blue, living in a region known to have public workers receive those high pensions, the LEO and fire dept. are not the ones I would consider high on my list as getting unrealistic benefits. My issues are that working in the public sector has now become more lucrative with benefits and pensions than working in the private sector. People flock to these jobs. I know that everyone can cite problems with individuals in LEO, just like in every sector, and yes their police unions are pretty good at protecting them, but there are also a lot of bs complaints that are levied against LEO out there doing difficult and dangerous jobs.

 @IS1FiveO  @JackMurphyRGR  @majrod  @SEAL76

 50 - What is Not True? I am from a family of Mil, Agencies and Para Military. In Law enforcement, we have many tier in the family from beat to detective to forensics to Captain and Chief of Police. Did I say anything about Blue protecting dirty Blue? What I said was there is a code, violate it and you pay. Thats what I've seen.

 @majrod  @JHR  @JackMurphyRGR  @SEAL76

 Another of my hot buttons Major is the auto unions. I was home in MI visiting relatives several years ago and reading the Sun paper that was hashing the outrage that management wanted to re-look at the pay scales. Apparently several years before that (probably during good sales times) management agreed to more of a straight pay scale, which means that the guy hired solely to sweep the plant floors and the assembly worker got paid the same - about $35/hr. I couldn't believe it and compared it to barely being able to afford to pay young engineers with a degree in the SF Bay area of CA (not Flint MI with a much lower cost of living) $25/hour. I still have trouble stomaching their bs.

 @IS1FiveO  @JHR  @JackMurphyRGR  @majrod  @SEAL76 Sir you are correct. Almost all police officers are honest and hardworking just as most people in other occupations are. There are always a few screw ups in all professions.

 @JHR  @JackMurphyRGR  @majrod  @SEAL76

 JHR, I can tell you from experience that that is not true.  To be sure, we would not run around telling on each other when the boss wants to know who was late for work or things like that but I have never heard of anyone protecting a police officer who was commiting crimes unless they too were in on the crimes.  I have nothing to lose or gain by telling you this, I can only ask that you would take my word on it.  I've been on the job a long time and I work in a major metropolitan area.  We have had officers arrested and charged for all different kinds of crimes and I never heard of anyone getting ostricized or worse for not looking out for them.  I would submit to everyone here that American law enforcement is, with the exception of a very small minority, a very honorable institution.  Whether the public believes it or not, I and other police officers go to work every day with the intention of protecting people and have enough integrity to do what is necessary to remove from our ranks, any corrupt officers.

 @majrod  @JackMurphyRGR  @SEAL76 I agree.

 @SEAL76  @JackMurphyRGR  @majrod I attended Catholic school and my hands were smacked with a ruler in Latin. The only nice Nun was the sister that taught me Classical Guitar 7 days a week. My swimming coaches were pretty ruthless. My riding coach used to say nasty things and throw mud in my face if I screwed up at a horse show.

The teacher I got mad of was in a public school. She "got off" on emotionally and physically abusing the Little kids. I think about half the kids had stopped eating their lunches and NONE of them wanted to go to school. In all honesty, out of the 9 kids in the class, all were good kids. Believe me, they got enough discipline on the ranches and their days were filled with ranch chores and school. There is no need to verbally abuse a kid. I believe in "strict". Ask my son. He calls me the Kommendant.

 @JackMurphyRGR  @IS1FiveO  @majrod  @SEAL76

 OK, that clears it up for me.  When you said cops can get away with murder I infered that to mean they were out there gunning people down in the streets.  I am a policeman and I keep up pretty well on issues related to law enforcement.  Just for sake of clarity, killing someone when you are driving drunk is a homicide but not a murder in most states.  It usually is charged as involuntary manslaughter or reckless homicide.  That kind of stuff happens but its just not as common as perceived by the public.  The guy you are talking about definitely should be in prison and if other police officers covered up his crime, they should be too.  Thanks for replying.

 @majrod  @JHR  @JackMurphyRGR Not allowed in most public schools. Corporal punishment is not politically correct. Of course it is probably a good thing since the potential for abuse is always present. I don't don't think they hit students in Catholic school anymore. I used to make my sons do pushups when they screwed up. When they got past 100 I stopped because it got so boring for me. One of my sons became a SEAL. The other was a AO on the Enterprise.

 @JHR  JHR I'd counter your RR union example with the auto union.

Unions can be good but there are many examples of how they raise wages to the point that an industry is hurt or the workers don't get what the unions negotiated.

  @JackMurphyRGR  @SEAL76

 @SEAL76 My first introduction was to a Jesuit priest was when Fr Lux kicked me in the thigh for sitting on the floor in HS waiting for a class to begin. 

As I rubbed the spot and looked up at him he calmly said, "Gentlemen don't sit on the floor" and prepared to kick me a second time as I scrambled to my feet.

A little knocking around creates a healthy respect for authority.  One may want to ask the OWS crowd about their upbringing...

@JHR  @JackMurphyRGR

 @JHR  @JackMurphyRGR  @majrod I went to 12 years of Catholic Parochial School. Dumping desks was just part of the routine. We got smacked, humiliated and yelled out all of the time. I am not saying it was right but it sure made BUD/S a lot easier to handle.

 @JackMurphyRGR  @SEAL76  @majrod @SEAL76  I've seen a few flaws with the Tenure System that can be maddening. I think a trap door should be installed on that system for bad teachers. We have about a half dozen teachers in our big Irish Family...they are all awesome, except one. One of my cousins is the WORST. God almighty, seriously, he should walk away. He is a fabulous athlete, runner, track coach but not a good teacher. They switch him from school to school to kind of spreas him around and I heard he is going to get tenure. We have 3-4 small towns and school districts and I think nobody wants to out him because his Mother and Aunt were legendary teachers in the County. My son attended a one room schoolhouse. The headmaster was awesome but the K-5 teacher was bad. The last straw for me when my son was in there in 1st grade was when she dumped his little cousin Brookes desk over and all the kids came home terrified and crying. The witch had a temper. It took me a month, 2 school board meetings and me gettingfairly  aggressive with the teacher (think me nearly tossing a desk at her) to get her the crap away from those little kids. Bad teachers bug me. That gal is STILL in the county, is abusive and they can not get rid of her. At least my cousin is loving, I just do not think he loves what he does. You need passion and patience to teach.

 @IS1FiveO  @JackMurphyRGR  @majrod Can't say that I have heard of a cop who got away with murder. We have had police investigated for excessive force and attempted murder but nothing happened.

 @SEAL76  @JHR  @majrod New York has a very strong teacher's union.  Personally, I think teachers in this state make out like bandits, especially considering that they only work like nine months out of the year...

 @JHR  @JackMurphyRGR  @majrod  @SEAL76 I was a member of the NEA and NJEA for the 30 years I taught Special Education in the public schools. I don't know about other unions but the New Jersey chapter was not anywhere near as strong as it is portrayed. It did at times protect teachers who should have been fired but it did not negotiate the huge contracts we so often hear about. Contrary to popular belief Teachers Unions don't have a say in subject matter, curriculum or methodology. That is the purview of the Board of Education and the Superintendent. I am guessing that Police and Firemen have much stronger and better unions. Whatever the case military pensions suck.

 @JackMurphyRGR  @majrod  @SEAL76 Unions are strong and tight and protective. But they shatter. Look at our Rail Road unions. I know guys that had 19 years and 6 months in and they were canned because of the railroad downsizing (15-20 years ago) and the railroads could not afford to pay on their retirements. Imagine working until 6 months of retirement, then getting layed off for financial resasons. All were ex mil,  they rebounded and did well. I do not think unions are the sole reason for the Cop issue. Their ethos and Codes run way back to the beginning. Para Military is a science unto its own.

 @JackMurphyRGR  @IS1FiveO  @majrod  @SEAL76

 The Blue Code. #1 Rule, Blue protects Blue. This goes beyond comraderie. This is Code set in stone. Go against it and Pay.

 @IS1FiveO  @JackMurphyRGR  @majrod  @SEAL76 There was a cop local to my area who got shit blasted drunk, crashed into and killed an old woman, and was suspended from his job.  His union supported him, had the woman's blood alcohol level tested to find that maybe she had one drink so the entire affair was blamed on her.  Meanwhile, the cop's buddies covered for him and made sure he didn't have to have his blood alcohol levels tested.  The union got him re-instated in his job as a police officer AND got all his back pay returned to him while he was on suspension.  This sort of shit happens all the time.

 @JackMurphyRGR  @majrod  @SEAL76

 That's a pretty heavy charge.  Can you cite some examples?  I've heard of some real shitheads getting their jobs back but getting away with murder because of thier union is a new one to me. 

 @JackMurphyRGR  @majrod We have had corrupt cops fired and rehired with all benefits reinstated because the union was so forceful.