Getting to know al-Qaeda: Part III – AQIM

 @ArcticWarrior I need a 24 hours to digest this.

Hmmmmm. Agreed. And, Arturo was a  hit. Used the Federales for that one as well as CIA. SWonder how many payrolls these guys are on.

Fun Fact: since the horse farm was shut down in U.S., now quickly the interests go elsewhere. Oregon has the most amount of FBI most wanted (top 10) in the U.S. BTW...are any of the boyz in Pelican Bay?

 @JHR

 From Barbie...but we all ready knew this....

"First I would like to express that I was not eligible for the witness protection program. Likewise, I categorically deny the accusations and declarations that are related by the apprehending elements regarding my detention, and the the truth of the matter is as follows: My detention was the result of a political persecution on the part of C. Felipe Calderon Hinojosa, who set up a harassment against my person for the reason that the undersigned [La Barbie] refused to be a part of the agreement that Mr. Calderon Hinojosa desired to have with all the organized crime groups for which he personally held numerous meetings in order to have talks with organized crime. Subsequently, different meetings were carried out through General Mario Arturo Chaparro who met under the orders of the President and Juan Camilo Mouriño, with two of the bosses from La Familia Michoacana. Subsequently, the general had an interview in Matamoros with Heriberto Lazcano and Arturo Beltran Leyva, "El Barbas", and also with "El Chapo" Guzman, leader of the Sinaloa Cartel. -Continues on page two- Calderon wanted the meeting with all the cartels: The Zetas, the Gulf Cartel, with me, the Juarez Cartel, with Vicente, Mayo and Chapo. A situation for which there was no answer on my part and I did not want to have connections with anyone form the criminal organizations [and] a quick persecution began against my person, to the degree of having my various homes searched without a legal warrant for it and during which they stole money, jewelry, cars and other belongings from me. Genero Garcia Luna, head of the federal SSP, who from at least 2002, first in the AFI and then in the PFP, it was evident that he had received money from me, from drug trafficking and organized crime, the same that a select group made up of Armando Espinosa de Benito who was working with the DEA and passing me information, Luis Cardenas Palomino, Edgar Eusebio Millan Gomez, Fransisco Javier Garza Palacios (Colombian Federal Police), Igor Labastida Calderon, Facundo Rosas Rosas, Ramon Eduardo Pequeno Garcia, and Gerado Garay Cadena who also formed a group that took money from organized crime and from me. Among others, they were charged with "stopping me in some operation" when in reality they had orders to kill me, so much so that at the moment of my arrest, which came out in the mass media, when they found me alone at home. They said that on that day there were no gunshots reported but the truth is that there was. A federal cop who was the same that brought me to this place and who actually found me, urged me to run so that he could shoot me and that he could say that he repelled an attack an had killed me as they did with ARON ARTURO GINES BECERRIL who they killed in the vicinity of the Perisur Mall, and who had most of his bullet wounds in the back on the same day of my arrest. Everything was covered up by the Federal Police. It is worth making mention that despite the background of Genero Garcia Luna, which are found in many criminal proceedings of which the American government already has knowledge, that even formed part of the themes touched upon in the Merida Initiative, and to which I already had access in the most recent testimony of the collaborating witness, "Mateo" (Sergio Villarreal); the President Felipe Calderon argues against the charges against [Genero Garcia Luna]. It is worth noting that the Federal Police, no matter how many detentions they  cconduct, they never seize anything, everything gets lost -e.g. money, jewelry,  vehicles, drugs.- yet it should also be mentioned that the Mexican  military and the Navy Secretariat are the most  honest, because when they detain  someone, they turn them over to the corresponding authorities with whatever evidence they  had at the time of their detention." I might have done that which has been done, but they, the public servants that I have mentioned are also a part of the criminal structure of this country." Signed,   EDGAR VALDEZ VILLARREAL

Hmmmm Luna was also in charge when the "Contractors" were hit back at the end of the summer....

 @Surf375  @ArcticWarrior  @MEL10 Sucks seeing my poor spelling on these posts! Half the time, I have little to no light and am jamming....I do apologize:-)

 @ArcticWarrior  AW, I can catch up reading in a few days. Thnx for Blackie and Elk info. I surveyed aerials of my location before going in and it showed grasslands. The site is overgrown with foliage and mammals have come down lower off the mountain. I got stuck for one night, took your advice on all accounts and now understand the behavior of 2 or more hunting together. Am being vigilant. No cell towers for 50 miles, no F&G either. I am trying not to alert the nice logging neighbors over the hill as they are awaiting for their boyz to come home for feliz navidad. I have backup 3 miles down now and 14.86 miles can be wheels up in under 4 minutes. Thanx.

@Surf375 @MEL10 @ArcticWarrior Please accept my complement for this discussion, as it is one of the best and most thought provoking I have stumbled into. Thank you for sharing- we are all better for listening. And thank you to SOFREP for providing a forum and congregating such a strong, thoughtful, and serious cast of characters. Keep up the good work-

 @MEL10  @ArcticWarrior 

* unlike=not unlike

 @MEL10   @ArcticWarrior 

" In Western Societies the scholars would flourish, but I dont think no matter how much protection a scholar in San‘a’ speaking progressive thoughts isnt going to last. Same could be said for a hundred other cities in countries worldwide from PI to Morocco. "

No, textual criticism (and other Quranic studies) would have to be trickled down. Much of it would have to be done in the West. The acquisition of historical documents would have to be exfilled professionally, for example the Sa'ana pre-Uthmani Qur'ans. The new preponderance of satellite Western universities campuses can be part of the delivery strategy--along w/ media, web 2.0, etc.

I agree w/ you, even in the US, Christian and Jewish textual criticism are arkane fields even for us. But you can see the results of this scholarship in everyday life, ie people use to think the Bible was the word of God, that changed a long time ago.

For example, Bible scholars have always questioned the "let he who has not sinned cast the first stone" story of Jesus, but only recently because of Dr. Ehrman and other scholars pushing back harder on our own Salafi tide--the evangelical movement, are we re-educating ourselves on the dubious nature of the Bible.

It's not gonna be a clear, a cut and dry antedote, it's more designed to give Arab seculars or Arab "moderate" Muslims some room, buy them time to stand up a more organic push back against Islamic fundamentalism. By no means is it meant as a stand alone answer.

The big difference, the Quran is taken as literal, God's word on earth, while these days we in the West, don't think the New or Old Testaments are literally God's words--the point is, we did once and paid for it dearly.

Cause them doubt is the only goal here--convince the ulemas (remember they have no clergy) and they'll trickle that doubt down to the illiterates, but it's gotta be solid scholarship. Most ulemas deal w/ divorce, inheritance and how the old gets cared for, but give them some doubt and it might just work, the processes of ijtihaad is unlike our own jurisprudence, we deal w/ changing laws all the time that lead to societal changes.

Exploit their established process.

 @ArcticWarrior  @MEL10 

I'll defer to JHR's field based knowledge on this to my more academic biased knowledge on this. And appreciate this rare take on things. The last sentence of the above re-post is the whole point of the two reposts.

 @ArcticWarrior  @MEL10 

JHR:

"As far as "different bag of tricks", we are seeing warfare on a mixed style, from basic Guerilla (sp?) to calculated strikes for the most bang for the buck. The mental acuity used by the cells against us is savvy. The partnerships then lend tofurther  mixed warfare styles. How does our conventional forces fight THAT? Just a question That I do not think is being adequately assaulted.

The bag of tricks are a multitude of cells, each with their own agenda (some on a big scale) yet the unique aspect is how complete enemies have united in partnerships for common goal projects; pro violent agenda. How they divide their successes is done systematically.

There is a structure amongst these cells that is moderated, policed and adhered to globally. They communicate and will go so far as to not make a riff with a rival cell in the U.S. that could have a negative affect on ME dealings. Now, we are getting into a sophisticated network. I think this is an aspect that may be getting overlooked by a salafists point of view.

Surf mentioned on another thread that he did not think certain cells were working together, had common agendas, etc. Not true, these cells work closely together on some projects. This misconception, if ignored, could cause grave miscalculations in how we take action."

 @ArcticWarrior  @MEL10  

This feels like Cloud Atlas, where we are talking about the same thing in 3 different threads, so here's JHR's comments on here for relevance:

"I think it would be prudent to look at the changes, splinters and offshoots of these groups from 2008 through today. For example:

diversified and complicated ideologically and religiously motivations amongst these groups make them prime recipients to work with any group who can assist in either A) gaining momentum for their progect B) ammassing power or C) completing even a short term goal project/strike/agenda.

W/S/I mix as you mentioned actually share some theological and intellectual doctrines,yet  they are theologically and politically very different, perhaps vastly so today comapred to even 5 years ago. This again, is an example which leaves the door open for alliances with groups one might never have imagined they would comply with.

I know that some folks are absolutely detested by others, yet business is conducted between them for mutual benefit."

 @MEL10  @Surf375

 the difficulties of chipping away at the uneducated, illiterate base believers  in the ME (sort of an theological COIN).....

I like that, Theological COIN

 @Surf375

 In Western Societies the scholars would flourish, but I dont think no matter how much protection a scholar in San‘a’ speaking progressive thoughts isnt going to last. Same could be said for a hundred other cities in countries worldwide from PI to Morocco.

We in the West need to swallow the pill that we fucked up after the fall of the Ottoman Empire, we didnt see the writing on the wall and now we are still caught in reactive mode as opposed to proactive mode. Evidence the Salafists from the 1950s to the present day Muslim Sisterhood.

The world has been changing since the 1950s, we didnt see it coming save for a few papers here and there.

Remember all the Tripoli Post articles about how bad Benghazi was becoming, a terrorist/jihadist haven from back in 2011?

 @Surf375  @ArcticWarrior Great stuff. The academic resistance to the insidious sprawl of militant Jiihadism to the US and the West,  would take decades to display results, not to mention the difficulties of chipping away at the uneducated, illiterate base believers in the ME (sort of an theological COIN). Of course the AQ, MB types understand, their struggle spans centuries, and they all appear on board with that. It's unfortunate that at this time the US and the West have chosen a path of political correctness and the budget busting socialism approach to governance, which on it's own threatens their very survival. Add that to the toxic resurgence of power of the Islamic fundamentalist, paints a bleak picture. While the US seems hellbent  to weaken it's global energy, and military positions (not to mention it's strangling debt), China and Russia are strengthening their positions. Hell the chicoms were just parading around their new Air Craft Carrier "Liaoning".  Although China and Russia have their jihadist problems, they take the more direct approach when dealing with them. 

I agree, that the scholarship approach may be the only means to effectively challenge the fundamentalist belief system, which is a cancer to free societies,  however, it may require an "all others" approach because we (as a government) may not have the ability, based on our new societal constraints and restrictions,  to survive.

 @ArcticWarrior 

Stay away from media propaganda over there, like our Al-Hurra TV and Radio Sawa, that's money down the drain. 

 @ArcticWarrior  

"its a death sentence", if we're serious enough about this part of the strategy, the academic portion, then we can mitigate that scare by providing these future scholars with personal protection and the acquisition of data, historical evidence.

BW protected case officers in Iraq, I'm sure much of the intel gathered by them were next to useless, why not invest some SOFs or ex-SOFs on facilitating these scholarly endeavors, probably more bang for our buck, in the long run.

 @Surf375  

"We haven't put Islam under the fire of reason yet, mostly because serious scholars are scared."   There is no Cult of Personality amongst the scholars who might push back, its a death sentence. And yet we put most of our eggs in the Mojahedin-e-Khalq basket, wait until they turn on there puppet masters. They certainly arent the solution.

 @ArcticWarrior 

The lack of scholarship delving into the Qur'an is so resounding, that our best challenge to the 72 virgins myth found in the haddiths and in the Qur'an (w/out quantity), is that houris were actually Syriac for heavenly grapes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk40dR8UpaU , we can step it up.

Every sort of fundamentalism or extremism deserves a scholarly push back, and I'm not talking "islam is a religion of peace", "Terrorism goes against Islam", etc. push back the way we've pushed back on Christianity, Mormonism, Judaism and Scientology, these religions will forever be kept at bay because of the previous academic attacks on them.

We haven't put Islam under the fire of reason yet, mostly because serious scholars are scared. I can't see any strategic solution to countering the Salafi tide w/out the employ of Qur'anic scholars, of the same caliber as Christian and Jewish textual scholars current and in the past.

 @ArcticWarrior 

Ha, it's the classic tale of Frankenstein for them. The irony is, w/ the Gulf states and KSA, they're finally wising up and investing in Western education. But no serious scholarship into the Qur'an, w/out it the Salafi tide will still be left unchallenged.

 @Surf375 

" 10 yrs after and we still don't really know what we're dealing with and what to do exactly..."       Thats pretty much sums it up. Its not a local/regional issue but its a growing worldwide issue getting more traction by the day.

You think anyone sleeps well in the House of Saud these days?

 @ArcticWarrior  

I totally agree with you, man. Even the Thai Muslims are more Salafized these days, what was a simple irredentist type rebellion, became a Islamic struggle. When the Filipino, Indonesian, Malaysian and Thai Muslims start talking more and more like the crazies, it's time to worry. 

Like Syria, Assad, the Alawis, the Christians, the Shi'as and the Druze are fighting the Salafi tide. It's pretty cut and dry for them. Qadaffi and Mubarak knew what they were dealing with. 10 yrs after and we still don't really know what we're dealing with and what to do exactly. 

 @Surf375  @ajgamble  @majrod Its not even about winning the Mid-East anymore, but about winning the Islamic world. It started in earnest in the 1950's. Look at a guy like Rezvani, he seems like a moderate compared to some of the Salafi's. Its spreading everywhere, though N and South America havent seen it catch on in a major grass roots movement, yet.

Im not sure these guys can play like Big Paulie and Fat Tony. I think we have more Danny Greene's then we have Tony Ducks.