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Home » SOF News » Battle for Mali: Coming Soon, 2013

Battle for Mali: Coming Soon, 2013

by Iassen Donov · December 4, 2012 · Posted In: SOF News
Battle for Mali: Coming Soon, 2013

Mali – the entire Saharan Desert portion of the nation is controlled by Islamists looking to control the nation. They are supported by AQIM.

Related Posts
  • Battle for Mali: Operation Serval
  • Three U.S. Special Operations Soldiers Die in Mali
  • American- *cough* *cough* French Troops Arrive in Mali

Mali is quick to become the next Afghanistan. Despite the United State’s best efforts both politically and militarily; the country is slowly succumbing to the control of Islamic jihadis in the North. An umbrella term that includes many militant organizations including the Mali-based al-Qaeda in Islamic Maghreb.

But over the course of the last few months there has been a massive military rush by numerous nearby nations to stem the tide. A dozen nations have heed the call for help and are being strategically prepared for a massive counter-terrorism assault on the terrorist-controlled Northern Mali (hopefully).
Since 2007 the U.S. has had a steady presence of military (specifically Army Special Forces) as well our intelligence operatives on the ground in Mali and nearby nations as part of  Operation Enduring Freedom – Trans Sahara. In Mali specifically – U.S. SOF personnel found themselves in a political predicament when rogue Malian military personnel took control of the government in March of this year in response to the civilian government’s failure to handle the major uprising in the North. When a civilian government is overthrown by its own military in a coup d’Etat, generally the U.S. State Department won’t recognize the new government and partnerships are normally temporary suspended. Considering the U.S. SOF personnel are there by official invite by the Mali government and not operating clandestinely; they had no choice but to pull out of the country (“via official Pentagon sources”) until diplomatic matters are resolved. In April, 3 U.S. special operations service members were killed in Mali when their vehicle plunged off a bridge – one month after the coup and after military relations ceased between both nations. Their presence and mission there is still a mystery.

Current major events in Mali:

Mali soldiers march in formation.

- early October 2012: Mauritania, Niger, Togo, and Nigeria have pledged upwards to 3,000 men in addition to Mali’s own 5,000 assembled soldiers. It is believed that the Islamists have accumulated a force of 3,000 and their numbers are sweltering.

- October 2012: Algeria pledges 25,000 troops to be positioned on the border with Mali and Niger for a possible push against enemy forces.

- November 2012:  A delegation from the NMLA (National Movement for the Liberation of Azawad), a Malian secular nationalist movement which lost Northern Mali to the Islamists earlier this year during the Battle of Gao recently traveled to Paris to coordinate with the French President and Defense Minister on how to best contribute to military efforts against the Islamists. The NMLA is no friend of the Mali government nor is it a friend of the Islamists. But as the saying goes: “the enemy of my enemy is my friend“.

I personally believe this will be the next major battleground for U.S. special operations unless the tide is quickly turned. The nation in its current state is a pot of boiling water ready to overflow – and in the next 2-3 months will either see a massive and hopefully successful military operation in the North or the thousands of coalition forces will simply become a protection force for the rest of the country that is not in Islamist hands. Thousands of heavily armed “combat troops” (not peacekeeping) are on the cuspid of invading the North. So keep Mali on your radar and we will see how the next couple of months transpire! The President has to make an executive decision within weeks of this writing: to send a fleet armed UAVs, a larger presence of more direct action-focused SOF personnel, and an increase in intelligence capabilities. We can’t afford to lose Northwest Africa to the same Islamists we are actively engaging in the Middle East and the Horn of Africa.

Main photo: ISSOUF SANOGO/AFP/GettyImages

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Related Posts

  • Operation Serval

    Battle for Mali: Operation Serval

  • Malimap

    Three U.S. Special Operations Soldiers Die in Mali

  • AQIM

    American- *cough* *cough* French Troops Arrive in Mali

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David_98020
David_98020 5pts

The French? See http://m.csmonitor.com/World/Africa/2013/0111/As-French-forces-hit-rebels-in-Mali-Paris-wants-to-avoid-Europe-s-Afghanistan-video

ThePatriots
ThePatriots 5pts

@zero61 They just want to feel helpful. Don't worry, they have baby sitters.

mammynun
mammynun 5pts

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=43827&Cr=+mali+&Cr1#.UOQesG-_GSp

Contagio
Contagio 5pts

http://frontpagemag.com/2012/dgreenfield/the-salafi-crusades/

 

A very interesting perspective and thought-provoking to say the least.  Should also prompt some discussion in my opinion...

Ashter
Ashter 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Contagio Contagio, here's a different perspective from a panel of Syrians and a State Department rep held this time last year.  These members want a democracy in Syria through peaceful opposition.  It is an hour long, but it offers a different take on what we are seeing from Syria.  I wonder these panel members will be so outspoken if and when the Muslim Brotherhood take over control of Syria. 

 

http://vimeo.com/33259862

ellie2
ellie2 5pts

Fascinating! Keep us updated on your analysis as things progress!

Contagio
Contagio 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

http://frontpagemag.com/2012/joseph-klein/islamic-jihadists-occupy-mali-with-impunity/

 

A perfect example of what I call the Useless Nuisance (UN).....

Contagio
Contagio 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/new-york-times-arms-shipments-secretly-approved-by-obama-admin-ended-up-in-hands-of-islamic-militants/

 

Interesting ties to Mali mentioned here.  No surprise that this would be the case.

poidog22
poidog22 5pts

@BW and company - i think it might be a good idea to add a little author bio after the article or something. Adds some legitimacy to the article.

usapatriotonthemove
usapatriotonthemove 5pts

Oh man, that was totally off my radar.  Though. I do remember hearing about the three SOF members who were killed.  That stuck out in my mind when I heard it, like...Hmm.....wonder what's up, down there?  Seems as though the extremists are branched out all over, more so than people even realize.  I know we have good men and women on the job...and I'm extremely Thankful for them....as always.  :)  Thanks for the great article Lassen. 

Txazz
Txazz 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

Thanks for the article Iassen and causing me to strain my brain.  No worries, that's a good thing.

Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

I must say I've been watching Western Africa since the coup in March, the Tuareg are getting used by AQ/ Islamists watch the smuggling routes. 

Bill Roggio had a nice write up over at the Long war site:

http://www.longwarjournal.org/threat-matrix/archives/2012/09/west_african_jihadists_flock_t.php?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+LongWarJournalSiteWide+%28The+Long+War+Journal+%28Site-Wide%29%29&utm_content=Google+Reader

Txazz
Txazz 5pts

 @Old PH2Haven't heard much on Mali and knew things were brewing there.  It's rather startling the way it's shaping up.  Help me out here.  So basically, since the ethnic Tauregs aren't strong enough to hold the north the radical Islamists moved in and instituted Sharia law.  It appears there are many different factions.  So coalition forces would back the interim government so they can what, have elections again?  I thought most of Malians were Muslim anyway.  Am trying to get the playing field clear in my mind.

Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @Txazz The "Taureg rebellion" has been this slow simmering low intensity conflict that has been running in the far background of the western Sahara for 30+ years.  They have little or no support from any of the main players until around a year or two ago.  It appears that AQIM made contact and is using their local knowledge/ protection to smuggle weapons and people through the Trans Sahara.  This is my opinion and is only supported by things I've read.  Check out the sahelblog.wordpress.com, arabist.net, the UN and other news sites.

 

http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2012/sgsm14118.doc.htm    

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Old PH2  @Txazz

 PH I also check out http://www.north-africa.com/  The North African Journal. Its a decent compendium of what is going on.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Txazz  @Old PH2

 Add Niger to the list....

majrod
majrod 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

Iassen, again thanks forthe heads up.  Don't think this will get attention till someone gets shot and maybe not even then.

majrod
majrod 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

Why are 3000 terrorists sweltering an issue?  I like the idea of terroists suffering in the heat.  Iassen, thanks for the write up.  Very interesting.   

 

"I personally believe this will be the next major battleground for U.S. special  operations unless the tide is quickly turned."

 

I think that might be Syria.  Since there are reports today that the Syrians are mixing chemical agents airstirkes are problematic.  Destroying mixed munitions means everyone nearby is dead also and after mixing them it's easy to disperse them and put them in the field.

 

This is likely another article.

Tango9
Tango9 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @majrod Yeah, watching that now.  This is bad.

JackMurphyRGR
JackMurphyRGR moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Tango9  @majrodA Fuel Air Explosion will burn it all up....

dmalert
dmalert 5pts

 @SEAN SPOONTS  @dmalert Right, but you don't need a ton of accuracy to kill a lot of people.  You're also assuming the 07 incident wasn't sabotage.  Keep in mind a few months later the Israelis took out an alleged nuke reactor site.  So why were they "activating" the scud in the first place?  General testing or perhaps a hedge against the nuke site being bombed?

 

All of this doesn't matter though.  They have enough chemicals and lots of ways to deliver them that even with a 5% success rate they could kill a huge amount of people.  And if it's as you say why is everyone bugging out about them using them?  Psyop so we can enter Syria?  If it's so hard to use them and all these A-rabs are so klutzy then why worry about AQ or other Jihadi group getting them?

 

As per the cost of the program the cost of the actual chemicals is very low and it's the infrastructure that has chewed up all the cash - delivery systems, manufacturing equipment, facilities, etc.  And a lot of what they have from missiles to chemicals are manufactured in Syria.  What they have to outsource is guidance.   

 

This Israeli analyst does not share you optimism for their klutziness.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/12022#.UMQi03fhD3U

 

 

dmalert
dmalert 5pts

 @ArcticWarrior  @SEAN SPOONTS Yeah this whole thing is a huge mess.  As you mentioned earlier - someone decided to back the jihadis.  Big mistake.  If we had better supported the green revolution in 09 we might not be trying to isolate Iran in the first place.  This being said are we ready to commit 50-75k troops to secure the chemical weapons now (DoD's numbers not mine)?  And what of any semblance of order in the country?  Are we signing on for this as well?  And if we don't and Assad falls then does anyone think it really stops at 41k dead?

 

Who knows, but this is the price of destabilizing yet another country. 

SEAN SPOONTS(MAFIA)
SEAN SPOONTS(MAFIA) 5pts

@ArcticWarrior @Surf375 The guys they really have to watch out for are the Turks. They'd annex Syria in a heartbeat if they could find a pretext for it. It used to be a province of Turkey under the Ottomans.

SEAN SPOONTS(MAFIA)
SEAN SPOONTS(MAFIA) 5pts

@dmalert Look, my point is that they are over rated and generally inept. You don't have to dig too far into the 2007 incident to see what klutzs they are. The Scud is basically derivative of the German V-2 rocket of the 1940s. It is very simple in design, assembly and employment. You don't have to be a rocket scientists to use on, you just have to be as careful as the German pioneers of this technology were in 1944. Yet the Syrians and Iranians managed to blow one up in the prelaunch assembly phase trying to fit a warhead to it. Does that speak to their competence in employing chemical weapons? They also managed to kill dozens of their own military personnel, scientists and engineers who apparently aren't smart enough to know you need to wear hazmat suits when dealing with WWI technology like mustard gas. While it's true that no one is immune to training accidents, it is also true that competent organizations can have accidents without wiping out their entire launch, scientific and engineering staffs when those accidents occur. As for the 'billions' spent on chemical weapons, I disagree on the amount spent. Chemical weapons are not produced by Syria in vast quantities and then warehoused for later use, because they degrade in storage rather quickly. Which makes sense, you don't want them to be persistent for decades in storage unless you want them to also be persistent for decades when you hit a target with one. You produce in batches to replace stocks that degrade over a relatively short time period(Sarin is said to retain only about 10% potency after 2 years in storage). Syria didn't have thousands of rockets ready to be loaded with Sarin and VX. He had dozens. Given the low dose lethality of agents like Sarin and VX he only needed about 50 gallons of the stuff to kill all the people he could ever want to kill. It's harder to use these weapons that it appears. When Saddam bombed the Kurds his air force flew something like 14 sorties in flights ot 6-8 planes over 5 hours and dropped dozens of chemical munitions on a city of 80,000. They killed between 3,000 to 5,000. Given the lethality of the agents used they should have killed a lot more.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @dmalert  @SEAN SPOONTS

 All he really needs to do is have some of the systems function. The delivery wouldnt matter to boots on the ground, all anyone would care about is thats gas and they dont have level 4 protection. The pyschological toll would be gigantic. Sure it would either be his death sentence by JDAM ( or not ) but it could break the resistance, and he may well feel the need to go down swinging.

Thats the problem with regime change, these dictators had the market on violence. When they leave violence becomes a free market system with lots of mini-dictators, and with Syria being so diverse that is a giant problem.

If I was an Alawite Id be checking with my Russian and Iranian friends to see who had an extra couch, because when Assad is gone bad things will happen to them and the Christians.

dmalert
dmalert 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @SEAN SPOONTS  LOL - not really.  07 was a training accident something from which no one is immune.  I was agreeing with you that it's not easy.  As for Iraq's Army, my recollection is they were the ones that last launched a successful chemical attack.  And as for how good their army was?  Hard to say, our weapons are so much more advanced than theirs. 

 

As for Syria, I'm sure they would have a lot of problems with some of their delivery systems due to lack of maintenance/other, but this doesn't mean they couldn't launch a lot of chemicals on mixed devices with success.

 

 

SEAN SPOONTS(MAFIA)
SEAN SPOONTS(MAFIA) 5pts

@dmalert @majrod @poidog22 @JackMurphyRGR @Tango9 You have an interesting way of making my point while disagreeing with it. Once upon a time(The 1st Gulf War)the opinion makers were all telling us that Iraq had the most experienced desert army in the world and that we didn't know how to fight in the desert. We tend to over estimate the capabilities of these people. They buy logs of tanks planes and guns but they don't spend money(like we do) on training and live fire exercises. As a result, you have the kinds of incidents like you described in 2007.

dmalert
dmalert 5pts

 @SEAN SPOONTS Well you can only kill the guy once.  He's in deep hummus if he doesn't use the weapons because he will either be killed or end up in the Hague.  Assad is like the guy that has taken 20 hostages at a bank.  He's killed 3 to make a point and the West is telling him if he kills anymore he's really going to be in trouble.  LOL - this of course is hilarious - what are they going to do?  Give him a 4th life term for killing the next guy?

 

Unlike the Spring in Egypt and Tunisia, which were driven by rising commodity prices, Libya and Syria were heavily sponsored/manufactured events.   So he probably feels justified in trying to put down the foreign backed insurgents.  As for the UN - most corrupt org on the planet - who gives a crap what they say about anything.

 

Now if he uses the weapons to neutralize the insurgents and then tells the West - cut it out or I launch externally.  Then maybe he survives.  Whether it's chemical weapons or conventional weapons killing a lot of people is killing a lot of people and whether it's labeled genocide vs. collateral damage/civil war only depends on how good your PR is.

 

 

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @Surf375  @SEAN SPOONTS

 Surf he is out of real estate. Damascus is where he makes his stand, and I agree we picked Jihadi's over Dictators. Not sure who thought that was a good idea. And when this mess is over, when these "freedom fighters" from the SNC, who are backed by the Libyans, Qatari's and Saudi's, get bored who are they going to turn those Milans and SA18s on next? Id say the smell of that fear is coming from Amman.

dmalert
dmalert 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

@SEAN SPOONTS@majrod@dmalert@poidog22@JackMurphyRGR@Tango9

As for the Syrians not being up to mixing the chemicals - I seriously doubt this.  They've spent billions over the past few decades on chemical weapons = hard to believe they don't know how to use them.  This being said you are right that it's not easy and quite dangerous.  In July of 2007  bunch of Syrian and Iranian engineers (dozens) were killed loading a mustard gas warhead onto a Scud = explosion then the gas spread throughout the given facility.  As the story goes it was while "activating" the Scud rather than mixing the chemicals and the fuel caught on fire and then the resulting explosion spread the chemicals.

 

My guess is this was sabotage, but I digress.  Outside of Syrians being well trained to mix chemicals so are some of the IRGC in country.

dmalert
dmalert 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Old PH2 Right you are so hence the possibility of using chemical weapons.  In fact they'd be fools not to.

SEAN SPOONTS(MAFIA)
SEAN SPOONTS(MAFIA) 5pts

@Old PH2 @Surf375 Thats a good point. The talking heads love to pretend these revolutions are the 'huddled masses yearning to breath free' but it's really sectarian violence.

Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @Surf375  @SEAN SPOONTS Those Maronites and Chaldean families have nothing to loose.  They understand that if Assad falls they are dead, total genocide.  And what does the Obama admin have planned to prevent that?  Nothing they are openly admitting, so what choice does that leave the Assad regime and their supporters?  Fight to the death.  None of us should be surprised, especially after the last decade of our government proving at every turn that we will abandon the region to who ever kisses us and promises to play nice.  I'm going outside to stand in the rain for a while....

Surf375
Surf375 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @SEAN SPOONTS 

 

He's setting up to be bailed out, not attacked.

 

But if he was half the man his dad was he'd go out in a blaze of glory, damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

It was a good run, the Assad's Syria was the most progressive, intellectually and culturally--all the stuff going on in the Gulf is good, but what Syria had was the real thing, the Gulf states is manufactured progress, Syria's was the real answer to the Salafi tide, we should've took care of it, IMHO: http://www.flickr.com/photos/gsfc/8246889527

 

I hope he nukes everything north of Damascus and east of Latakia, as F'ed up as that sounds, Syria is the lynch pin, it's like a bad case of diarrhea where you have a nugget of solid poop holding everything at bay, once that piece pops out, the whole toilet explodes, toilet being the Mid-East. Game over.

 

Shoulda, woulda, coulda, but we backed the wrong crowd in the Arab Spring. Let's at least give him a pass and allow some real entertainment in the Levant, the last stand, an homage to his father's Hama operation. He's gonna play it safe though, but his father's old guards are a different story--the Maronites and Chaldeans in the Syrian security apparatus make the Israelis look nice.

 

Saving them and their families was what this whole mess was all about, but we missed it.

SEAN SPOONTS(MAFIA)
SEAN SPOONTS(MAFIA) 5pts

Oh and I forgot to mention that if Assad did use chemical weapons on his own people he's in deep hummis. Under the UN charter acts of aggression against other states, violation of the non-proliferation treaty, harboring terrorists and acts of genocide are justification for erasing Syrai's claims of sovereignty. Syria,(like Iraq) has done all four repeatedly. That leaves the US and other UN countries like the NATO allies, Turkey and even Russia open to invade, bomb and replace Assad. Is this beady eyed opthamologist that stupid?

SEAN SPOONTS(MAFIA)
SEAN SPOONTS(MAFIA) 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

@majrod @dmalert @poidog22 @JackMurphyRGR @Tango9 Just a little technical perspective. Handling, loading and firing binary munitions requires real skill. Screw it up just a little and you get a lot of your own people killed and contaminate your whole battery of Arty.. I'm not sure Assads people are really up to the job. I think the major US concern here is where his stores of Sarin and other agents end up if Assad is toppled(recalling that stuff like Sarin degrades quickly in storage). I suspect our intervention would be directed towards targeting his chemical stores, particularly the precursor chemicals that you need to employ them.

dmalert
dmalert 5pts

 @majrod  http://www.nti.org/country-profiles/syria/chemical/

http://www.nti.org/country-profiles/syria/delivery-systems/

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/syria/cw.htm

 

dmalert
dmalert 5pts

 @majrod  I love how FP calls it building a war out of your basement.  That's one well funded basement!

IS1FiveO
IS1FiveO 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @majrod  @dmalert  @poidog22  @JackMurphyRGR  @Tango9

 Motivation meeting imagination.  The TB are pretty good at launching 107mm and 122mm rockets by shoving a fuse up them and leaning them on a rock.

majrod
majrod 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @dmalert  @poidog22  @JackMurphyRGR  @Tango9

 

Interesting story here about the various improvised weapons the Syrian rebels are using.  Great videos, some of the highlights for me was the VBIED, IED footage (p3, 4) and the rifle grenades.  The homemade rockets had me laughing (p7) but the other stuff showed some ingenuity. DIY grenade launcher, shotgun based pipebomb launcher, recoilless gun and a multi caliber zip gun (p9).  The Syrian Army isn’t immune though.  They showed a DIY barrel bomb being pushed out of a helo (10).

 

 http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/12/04/how_to_build_an_army_in_your_basement?page=0,0

IS1FiveO
IS1FiveO 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @dmalert  @majrod  @poidog22  @JackMurphyRGR  @Tango9

 Good points.  There are several courses of action he could take.  I think the most likely COA is he will try to pull back and set up an Alawite enclave and use the chemical weapons as a deterrent.  It could cause a stalemate and buy him time.  He saw what happened to Ghadafi and I'd say he is probably only looking to stay alive.

dmalert
dmalert 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @majrod  @poidog22  @JackMurphyRGR  @Tango9 Assuming the news is accurate - what should be discussed as well is that chemical weapons like nukes are a deterrent.  Kind of like how Hezbollah's arsenal is a deterrent against adventurism into Southern Lebanon.  While Israel can plow Southern Lebanon under it would come at a price so to the extent that Nasrallah behaves himself then it's better left alone.  As for Assad, mixing the Sarin and getting it ready to go can be to send a message - stop flooding FSA with weapons or we'll gas them or it could be a message/warning being sent based on a non public occurrence. 

 

Next, let's say it's as Hillary claims - Syria will fall soon.  Assad intends to stop this fall by gassing many - one to prevent the fall, but also to say - don't fuck with me - stay out of Syrian affairs.  The idea being - leave Syria alone and all Syrian problems stay in Syria, but if you don't listen then I fire chemical warheads into neighbors - Israel for example.  Obviously Israel would flatten or nuke them, but if the message is leave us alone and nothing happens then the idea is to deter intervention.  In truth sometimes you have to use a weapon to make people understand this.

 

If Assad does a domestic launch - he's called the bluff - then what?  Bomb Syria to shit and kill more civilians, drone strike, etc. - risk external chem launch?

 

Who knows, but it's naive to think he won't use the Sarin and begs the question why weren't the chemicals hit or dealt with otherwise in the past?  Maybe not possible or decision was made not to - again who knows.

 

 

majrod
majrod 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @dmalert  @poidog22  @JackMurphyRGR @Tango9 

 

Syrians loading Sarin into air delivered munitions.

 

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/05/15706380-syria-loads-chemical-weapons-into-bombs-military-awaits-assads-order?lite

 

Article discusses Syrian aircraft and missile delivery systems but fails to mention cannon and tactical missile artillery type munitions (they have them, just not mentioned).

 

dmalert
dmalert 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @poidog22  @JackMurphyRGR The whole Syrian affair is a jihadi magnet magically sucking them in from all over the place.  As you say why screw with a good thing.

poidog22
poidog22 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @JackMurphyRGR    I kind of like the idea of them just killing each other. IMO not worth losing another American.

dmalert
dmalert 5pts

 @JackMurphyRGR  @majrod LOL.  Agreed - a whole lot going on. 

dmalert
dmalert 5pts

 @majrod  @JackMurphyRGR Agreed on Syria particularly towards Russia and Iran. My recollection was that IRGC was moving the chemical weapons around a few months ago.  This article argues that Syria might even use the weapons as a deterrence against direct  foreign intervention.

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/Special/2012/09/19/Amid-Syria-carnage-fears-of-chemical-arms/UPI-49261348077206/

 

Strongly disagree on Libya for several reasons.

JackMurphyRGR
JackMurphyRGR moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @majrod  @dmalert I love the righteous indignation guys.  There is a lot going on behind the scenes.  We'll see.

majrod
majrod 5pts

 @dmalert  @JackMurphyRGR  BTW, the Pentagon said it would take 75,000 troops to secure Assad's WMDs.  Food for thought.  (these don't have to be Americans of course but just a thought on what's needed to have "teeth")

 

majrod
majrod 5pts

 @dmalert "Going into Syria is not like going after Libya or conducting drone strikes in  Yemen, Pak, etc." 

 

Very true.  It doesn't escape me that we had a "moral imperative" to intervene in Libya but 30,000 - 50,000 dead civilians in Syria isn't enough...

 

If Assad uses chem and loses he and his can always retreat to a life of luxury in Russia or Iran.  Like you said, Assad can't lose.  Losing Syria is not something I see the Iranians accepting.  Assad has options and the chemicals continue to be mixed...

 

 

 @JackMurphyRGR

 

dmalert
dmalert 5pts

 @majrod  @JackMurphyRGR It's pretty clear we do not want to go in because as you mention it's not easy.  Additionally, Obama is perceived as weak so when he warns people like a school marm wagging his finger - is anyone worried?  Going into Syria is not like going after Libya or conducting drone strikes in Yemen, Pak, etc.

majrod
majrod 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @JackMurphyRGR Really?  Read what I said Jack. 

 

No doubt the "world" would be upset with Assad but I'm not sure the Russians would give Assad up or stop vetoing military action on the security council.

 

How would we remove Assad?  What are OUR teeth?   How do we inerdict, capture or destroy THOUSANDS of chem & bio warheads? 

 

Then if we execute regime change aren't we responsible for what comes to power?  Would we act unilaterally?  Sending SF to help the rebels?  Which ones aren't the islamists? 

 

 @dmalert

 

dmalert
dmalert 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @JackMurphyRGR  @majrod Understood, but my comment was if the only way he avoids defeat via FSA is to use Sarin then why not use the gas if this will prevent it.  Because anything Obama would do is not 100% certain.  So deal with the immediate threat first and Obama thereafter.  One has to view it from the mind of a highly desperate person.  And the truth is Iran has been outwitting the West for years now on their nuclear program - always pulling back at the right moment.  So what the west says and does isn't always the same thing.  And while Iran isn't gassing anyone the result of a nuke program can be far worse than gassing 60k people ultimately.

 

As for Assad you also have to assume he's thinking rationally.  He could have left the country with immunity months ago, but didn't - why?  Didn't trust the immunity deal, thought he could win?  I have no idea.  I only think he would use the gas as a last resort - meaning FSA defeats and kills him otherwise.  Let's say this is his thought process and he does it.  What will Obama do?  Ground troops, bombing?  Mixing the Sarin is not a good sign regardless of intent, but unclear why you would do it if you didn't intend to use it at some point.  Then consider that Assad thinks he is finished soon - launch the gas and fuck the rebels and fuck the US by drawing us into a quagmire of having to peace keep and set up a new govt.

 

I can speculate other actions as well as per Assad, but all I can say is people with nothing to lose are dangerous and highly unpredictable.

 

JackMurphyRGR
JackMurphyRGR moderator 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @dmalert  @majrod You couldn't be more wrong.  Obama declared that use of WMD's are a red line that would cause him to initiate an intervention.  If Assad uses WMD's it would align the entire world against him and virtually assure his removal by force.

dmalert
dmalert 5pts

 @majrod  Sure.  He has nothing to lose at all.  He stays in power or dies so if using sarin staves off defeat it's quite logical that he uses it.

majrod
majrod 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @JackMurphyRGR  HA HA.  Does the USAF even use WP anymore?

 

Anyway, explosions fling rounds everywhere.  Not good if we want to maintain control of Sarin or VX. 

 

A story about what's possible would be cool but I think we'll find our recent threat to Assad to be without teeth.

 

@Tango9

 

JackMurphyRGR
JackMurphyRGR moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @majrod  @Tango9 Shake and Bake.

majrod
majrod 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @JackMurphyRGR Not if they are already placed in artillery rounds and/or are in a bunker(s).

 

 @Tango9

 

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