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Home » No Kidding There I Was » No Kidding There I Was… Navy SERE School…

No Kidding There I Was… Navy SERE School…

by Brandon Webb · December 15, 2012 · Posted In: No Kidding There I Was
Navy-sere-sofrep
After nearly a year out east, I returned to California in January of 1994 with orders to report to HS-10, the helicopter training squadron in San Diego where I would spend six months learning the ropes before finally deploying as part of an operational squadron. But there were a few more hurdles to clear first, and the toughest of these was what came next. Before you can become a pilot, rescue swimmer, or any other job where there is significant risk of capture, you need two things. You have to have secret clearance, and you have to go to survival school.

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The term “boot camp” was first used by the Marines back in World War II, the term boot being slang for “recruit.” Those of us who showed up for Survival, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape Training (SERE) that January may have already been through many months of training, but we were clearly still green, still boots—and survival school was boot camp on steroids.

Based on the experiences of U.S. and allied soldiers as prisoners of war, the program’s aim is to equip its trainees with both the skills and the grit to survive with dignity in the most hostile conditions of captivity. It was far and away the most intense training I’d encountered so far.

We mustered at the SERE school building at Naval Air Station North Island, on the northern end of the Coronado peninsula, where we were scheduled for a week of classroom training, followed by a week of field work. We spent that first week covering history and background, including lessons learned from World War II and Vietnam. We learned such things as how to tell a captor just enough to stay alive—but not enough to give away secrets. The week went by fast, which suited us fine: we were looking forward to getting into the field.

That day came soon enough. We were all lined up and checked head to toe for smuggled food items before heading out. We had been warned not to try and sneak any food into our clothes or boots, but as I would learn again and again during my time in the Navy, there’s always one in every bunch. Sure enough, a few guys got caught with a variety of ridiculous food items stashed on their person. I had to give it to them for trying.

After inspection, we drove about ninety minutes to the northeast, heading into the mountains of Warner Springs, California, where we were broken into groups of six and then into two-man evasion teams. I was paired up with a big Recon Marine. These are special ops guys, similar in many ways to SEALs, including some who specialize in deep reconnaissance and others, called black ops, who focus more on direct action missions. I didn’t know if this guy was black ops or not, but regardless, as survival and evasion partners go I figured I could do a lot worse.

Then we were set loose in the wild with nothing but the clothes on our backs, simulating the experience of being on the move behind enemy lines. We spent the next three days learning basic survival and evasion skills, including trapping, tracking, and land navigation. We ate everything we could get our hands on, which wasn’t much. Survival school classes had been going out to this same spot for years, and practically everything that qualified as edible plant or animal had long ago been snatched up and eaten. Soon we were wolfing anything that wasn’t tied down, including bugs, some scruffy plants, and one lucky rabbit. By day 2, we were starving.

The nights were rough. Our first day out my partner and I built a shelter in preparation for the cold mountain night, but we way overbuilt. Being manly men, we wanted a nice roomy set-up so we would each have our space and wouldn’t have to sleep so close that we would touch each other. Having since experienced that kind of cold a number of times, both in training in the States and thousands of feet above sea level in the wilds of northern Afghanistan, let me tell you: all that manly bullshit goes right out the window and you are more than happy to be nut to butt with anyone who has a pulse and warm blood coursing through his veins. After waking up the fourth time, chilled to the core and teeth chattering, my Marine buddy and I grunted a few words of manliness and then nestled up to each other like a scene right out of Brokeback Mountain.

After three days of this, we were ready to get on with the evasion-and-captivity portion of training, which included an evasion exercise lasting about twenty-four hours, leading directly into the simulated POW camp portion of the training, which would be three days long. During the evasion exercise, which simulated the circumstances of a downed aviator, we would be out in the woods attempting to evade capture by the enemy, who would actively hunt us down. The rules of this exercise were pretty simple: don’t get caught. If we did, we would win a prize: extra POW time.

When the time was up, they would sound a loud siren, at which point those of us who had made it to the time threshold without being caught would walk to the nearest road and turn ourselves in. The “turn yourself in” part sounded crazy to me, but what the hell. It was their rules.

My Marine buddy and I did very well at the evasion exercise—so well, in fact, that by the time they sounded the siren the next afternoon, we had cleared way to the south and we were completely out of earshot. We eventually realized we had gone way out of bounds and the time limit must have expired by now, so we found a road and started walking north toward the exercise boundary. Soon we were picked up by a truck full of foreign-looking men who looked quite pissed off. Hoods were yanked on over our heads and we were smacked around for a while. Good times. Later we learned that these guys had been out looking for us for almost four hours and were none too happy about it.

Once we reached camp, our hoods were removed and we were marched into a processing area, where we were each given our own war criminal number. I remember my number to this day: I was no longer Brandon Webb, I was now War Criminal 53.

There were two rules here and we learned them pretty fast. “Grab your rags!” was the first. The second was, “Eyes to ground, whore dog!” Grab your rags: that was intended to remind us to grab the sides of our pants (which did indeed resemble rags at this point) so the guards could see our hands at all times. Eyes to ground: that one was to ensure that none of us war criminals would look around and gain any increased awareness of our surroundings—awareness that we might be able to use later to our advantage.

I decided to test out this second rule. Quietly, carefully, without moving my head or neck, I rolled my eyes just a few degrees to steal a glance around. Whack!—my head rocked back from a swift backhand to my face. I could feel my jaw crack. I was a fast learner, or at least not the slowest: I tried it once more, and after the second numbing smack across the face figured they were enforcing the rules pretty well. From that point on I grabbed my rags and kept my eyes to ground. I did not look around. (Okay, I did—but I was a lot more careful about not getting caught doing it.)

Once we were given our new rags and number, we were all asked very nicely what we preferred for dinner.

“War Criminal 53! You want the chicken or the fish?”

Both sounded damn good to me—but I suspected it was a trick question and that what they really wanted was our signatures. We had to sign for our choice of dinner in the ledger, and they had instructed us to use our real names. I’d heard enough stories to realize that they could use this against us in any sort of future propaganda campaign. I may have been a prisoner in their camp, but I wasn’t about to roll over. I wrote my choice in the ledger (I chose fish) and signed it without using my name, writing simply, “Fuck you—sincerely.”

After signing up for dinner we were gathered in a room where we could talk to each other. There were some pretty nervous guys in there. Strange though it sounds, I felt pretty relaxed. I’m not sure if this comes from early experiences being on my own or if it’s just my temperament, but I’ve never been one to lose my cool in a high-stress situation. This would prove to work to my advantage more than once, both now and especially later on, once I was finally in training as a SEAL.

After a few minutes, the camp guard came in and asked for a show of hands from anyone who was U.S. spec ops. I couldn’t believe it. Did he really think we were going to fall for that?

“Come and answer us, you American whore dogs! Who is U.S. spec ops and pilots? We know your U.S. spy planes and spec op soldiers are on the ground in our country! Turn yourselves in now and save yourself pain and suffering. We will give you hot meal!”

The accent was Russian and sounded quite authentic, but the request was so funny and so obviously full of shit that it took an effort to suppress laughter. In the next instant my amusement turned to shock and dismay when I saw several of my comrades’ hands fly up. What the hell were they thinking? Those unfortunates were asked to sign a confession and then immediately separated from the rest of us. I don’t know where they were taken or exactly what their special treatment was, but I can promise you two things: a) it hurt, and b) it was not “hot meal.”

Next I was assigned to a small concrete box, about three feet tall, though somewhat large in width and depth (thank Heavens), which I was expected to enter. Not much alternative here. I crawled in and did my best to find a comfortable position. Hunching down a bit, I could just manage to sit cross-legged, sort of. I am not a tall man, and in that moment I was grateful for this fact.

In the box I noticed a Folgers coffee can. I was told its purpose. “It is for you to piss and crap in.” Ahh, all the amenities. There was a little canvas flap one could pull down for a little privacy when it came time to use the can, that phrase having now taken on its literal meaning.

This would be my home for the next few days.

I wondered what would happen next. It wasn’t that terrible being crammed into this ridiculous box, but I wanted them to haul me out and start interrogating me. Let’s get this damn thing over with, I thought. But nobody came.

As the hours crawled by, a sort of routine began to establish itself.

People were randomly selected (at least it seemed that way to me) to be pulled out of their boxes and taken away into the night. A short while later, we would hear screams. Then the music would start: bad songs, the worst, over and over. Other times it would be a recording of a little girl pleading for her daddy to come home. Whatever it was they played on the loudspeakers, it would go on for hours. When daybreak came this routine continued. Screaming, complaining, whining, beatings, and bad music.

My most vivid memory of time in the camp was being crammed into another tiny box, this one of wood and no more than three feet in all dimensions. This wonderful location would be my accommodations for the next few hours, while they subjected me to the interrogation portion. (Be careful what you wish for.) I’ve never had a problem with small spaces, but when I was stuffed into that box (yes, stuffed), my left leg started to cramp. This was the kind of cramp you can quickly relieve simply by straightening out your leg, but in that damned box, there was no straightening anything out. That leg cramp—and even more, my complete and utter inability to do anything about it—drove me near to insanity. It took everything I had to keep it together in the box.

On day 2 they gathered us all together and gave us a speech.

“Nobody cares about you worthless turds. Nobody on the outside is thinking about you. You’re ours, and no one gives a shit. So we’ve made a decision. We were supposed to keep you here for three days and then let you go. But that was the old plan. That was before we had a chance to find out just how weak and pitiful you are. We decided, we’re gonna keep you pieces of shit here and keep punishing you for a lot longer. Maybe five days. Maybe ten. We haven’t decided yet.”

Now, this sounded pretty farfetched. We all knew that the POW portion would last only three days. But at this point, it was weirdly believable. When you haven’t had a decent meal in four days, you haven’t slept much, and you’ve gone through a full twenty-four hours of that POW environment, I don’t care who you are or how tough you are, it starts to mess with your head.

After this bizarre announcement we were returned to our concrete homes. Shortly thereafter, my neighbor in the next hole over, War Criminal 51, asked to see the camp commandant about his swollen feet. He was ignored, and soon asked again, this time louder. And again. And then again. He kept repeating his request, over and over, and was ignored every time. After more than a dozen repetitions, his demands moved from pleading, to urgency, to hysteria, and still he kept at it.

Finally he started screaming.

He was done putting up with this bullshit, and everyone could stop playing games now, right now. “My orders end tomorrow, man! I’m not playing this fucking game any more! Get me the fuck out of here, man!” He sounded like Private Hudson, the Bill Paxton character in Aliens. (“That’s it man, game over man, game over! What the fuck are we gonna do now?! … We’re all gonna die, man!”) He had completely lost it.

After about an hour of this, I had to pull down my little canvas flap so the camp guards wouldn’t see me laughing. I know that sounds sick, but I couldn’t help it. There were only two ways to see it: either it was terrifying, or it was funny as hell. I went with funny as hell.

Suddenly I heard the scuttling of running feet. I jerked open my canvas flap just in time to see War Criminal 51 making a run for it! I could hardly believe my eyes. Did he really think he could get out? Who knows. My neighbor (I never did learn his name) had cracked.

I don’t think anyone had ever tried to run right out the main gate before, and he actually took the guards by surprise for a moment—but only for a moment. They grabbed him up pretty quick. I never saw him again.

Not that he was the only one who thought about escaping. But it is an established rule in the U.S. military that even in a prisoner-of-war situation you still use a strict chain of command. For example, if you want to make an attempt to escape the camp, you have to run your request chit and ask permission from the senior person. This was difficult for me to accomplish because of the location of my concrete box and my lack of proximity to our senior person. I made two attempts to run escape chits, but none of the people I passed them to were successful in getting a chit all the way up the chain of command.

In the middle of the second night there, we were told to strip naked. We stayed that way while they hosed us down with freezing cold water. Time for your bath. What else could you ask for?

During the course of these few days we learned a lesson that had been learned the hard way by real POWs before us, mostly from people imprisoned in the Hanoi Hilton in North Vietnam: in any prisoner-of-war situation, the goal is to survive with honor. If you act like a jackass, if you are arrogant and refuse (or appear to refuse) to cooperate, you will be quickly executed. Don’t be a smart-ass. That is not the way you play the game. As much as is humanly possible, you stick to name, rank, and service number.

A few guys took the opposite tack and acted out, being as obnoxious and uncooperative as they could. Their reward: they got waterboarded. After the course was over, these guys started bragging about being waterboarded for bad behavior, as if it were a badge of honor. They were quickly disabused of this notion. In our debrief after SERE, it was made crystal clear that if you got waterboarded, this showed that you were not putting into practice what you’d been taught about surviving in a prisoner-of-war situation. In short, you were a fuck-up.

A few guys pushed it even further, and their punishment went beyond waterboarding: they were executed. (Simulated, of course, but still not fun.) More than a few people failed out for getting “executed” or completely losing their cool. Three days doesn’t sound like a very long time. Under normal, everyday circumstances, it’s not. But under POW camp conditions, it doesn’t take long to wear down a man’s sanity.

After day 3 we were liberated from the camp and soon found ourselves back at North Island getting debriefed on our POW experience. Our guards had seemed callous and brutal, like they neither knew nor cared who we were and didn’t even notice us except to punish us. It was a ruse. In fact, they had watched us all quite carefully and taken thorough notes on each individual prisoner the entire time. I was happy to find out that I did pretty well.

I asked about War Criminal 51, the guy in the hole next to mine who’d made a run for it.

“He lost it, completely and totally,” I was told.

Would he be able to go on with his training, I asked, or was he out of the Navy?

“Don’t know,” they said. “We’re still evaluating him. Either way, though, he will not be continuing on in his current high-risk assignment.”

They gave us advice on how to make a solid transition from our exhausting training back to normal, real-world living. “Remember,” they told us, “you guys have not eaten in almost a week. Take it easy, and definitely refrain from having any alcohol for a while, because it can induce hallucinations.”

I think they told us this last piece at least three times, but they could have said it thirty times and it probably still would not have mattered. Try telling a nineteen-year-old who has just been liberated from a simulated POW camp that he should “take it easy” and “refrain from alcohol,” and see what happens. I went out that night with all my friends and classmates to the Surf Club on base, and we got absolutely trashed. I don’t remember much about that night, but I vividly remember waking up Sunday morning with a massive headache, peeing bright yellow from dehydration. I didn’t care. Boot camp—all of it—was over.

Now all I had to do was figure out how to get to BUD/S.

Published from the New York Times Best Seller, The Red Circle by: Brandon Webb

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Brandon Webb

Brandon Webb is a former U.S. Navy SEAL with combat deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan, and elsewhere in the Middle East. His last tour in the SEAL Teams was as the Course Manager for the US Navy SEAL Sniper program, arguably one of the most difficult sniper courses in the world. He was formerly a contributing editor for Military.com, and currently the Editor-in-Chief of SOFREP.com. Brandon is regularly featured in the media as a subject matter expert on military affairs. An avid writer, his last two books (The Red Circle, & Benghazi: The Definitive Report) both hit the New York Times best seller list, and his writing has been featured in print, and digital media worldwide. You can follow him on Twitter @BrandontWebb

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the_dancer
the_dancer 5pts

Hey Brandon, I went to the same SERE training in 1993 and had almost an identical experience. The only real difference - if I remember correctly (some portions of my memory from this training I know are skewed) - is the application of the waterboarding.  We were in the POW camp on the very first day of this phase and the cadre randomly (it seemed random to me at the time) pulled a few of us out and got the waterboard immediately, myself included. My debrief did not call out that I had not played correctly. I believe they applied it for shock treatment to the whole group, but I cannot say for sure. There was definitely other waterboarding applied on the following days, which corresponded to the guys who were overdoing it. There are some other minor differences but I won't elaborate here as I don't want to take any fun away from any future attendees of SERE who may be reading. I can say that SERE was the toughest mental and emotional training I have been through.

FrankKnottyfor
FrankKnottyfor 5pts

Crazyottoe, you said: "Waterboarding may well appear to be torture for some but I can remember that I just wanted it over with and in no way did I suffer as a result." I submit that, rather than appearing to be torture, it IS torture.

Additionally, if you google the comments by psychologists in the SERE C level pow program about waterboarding, they all say it teaches exactly the reverse of what the POW camp experience is allegedly designed to do: let captured servicemembers return home with dignity.

According to the SERE C Level psychologists, waterboarding "breaks" 100% of the people on whom it's inflicted. Every single person, you, too, I'm sure, broke when waterboarded (if you didn't, please contact the psychologists in charge of the program because you're unique).

SERE POW camp is supposed to teach the captured servicemen to know when to go along and when to resist their captors. The 100% success rate of waterboarding flies in the face of that goal.

Why, then, Crazyotto, waterboard? Why do you think in 2013 it's needed?


crazyottojr
crazyottojr 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

Brandon,

 I went through SERE in 1975 at Warner Springs... and at that time almost all of of us were waterboarded at least once within a few hours of capture and it didn't have anything to do with being a fuck up.  We were told to resist as long as we could  but that everybody breaks eventually. It was some of the best training I received along with Rescue Swimming School. I was not Special Ops. just another AW Air Crew puke... ... I heard a guy on the waterboard (we were hooded so I never saw him) crying like a baby which just pissed me off and gave me resolve to last as long as I could without giving them what they wanted. Regardless all of my outfit ( HSL-31) came through just fine. I imagine they have updated the training since the 70's but I just wanted to bring that to your attention. My point being is when most people talk to me about waterboarding as torture I try to tell them about  my experience. Although I realize that for those who are the enemy it may be a great deal more intense I still don't believe it to be torture in the more conventional sense. I find listening to Debbie Wasserman-Schultz for more than a minute to be real torture.


SkipParsons
SkipParsons 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

Mr Webb, 

Someone was saying you signed papers not to talk about SERE school in any way? They really did not read the papers properly.  Having had a Secret clearance as well, there is a clause that nothing can be said about the training for ten years and you could not travel to a communist block country for the same amount of time.  From the time you signed 1994, to 2004, was your block of silent time. After 2004 all is declassified for you. I vividly remember my SERE experience to this day having attended during BUD/S team training in 1972. It will always fondly be with me and can be utilized at any time.  

FrankKnottyfor
FrankKnottyfor 5pts

SERE training was important for the Korean/VietNam wars but in 2013 it would seem outdated because the Jihadists don't hold prisoners, they kill them, and there's no stress training for being murdered.

 

Also, the former Chief Psychologist for the SERE project testified before Congress that approximately 3.5% of all "prisoners" suffer permanent, life-long psychological trauma of a mind-and-emotional destroying nature, plus another percentage who suffer but who, after intensive psychological treatment, seem to improve (but no follow-up was done).  Your War Criminal 51 man would fall into one or the other categories, and I suspect they weren't about to tell you that they'd destroyed a man's life psychologically.

 

The problem with this sort of activity is that it gets out of hand very, very easily--remember the Stanford University experiment from the '70s where students were divided into two groups, Guards and Prisoners?  And the experiment had to be stopped before completion because the Guards easily slipped into sadistic roles.   And the USAF training where sexual abuse/rape occurred on the part of the Guards.  Videos are constantly made of the C-Level situation and, while they say it's for trainging purposes, it serves very strongly to let others monitor the level of abuse heaped upon Prisoners.  As I said, it gets out of hand very, very easily.

 

If 10,000 servicemen go through the C-Level each year (which is a low number) the permanently harmed would seem to number about 350 per year.   How many actual prisoners are taken by the Jihadists/other enemies each year?  It sure isn't 350, if I recall correctly.

 

Why, then, continue SERE C-Level training?

 

 

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts

 @FrankKnottyfor

 They dont always kill them. Sgt Bergdahl of the 1/501st has been held as a POW since 2009, which disputes your saying they dont hold prisoners. ST6 just missed grabbing him not too long ago, and eventually we will get him back.

FrankKnottyfor
FrankKnottyfor 5pts

 @ArcticWarrior

 Thanks, Arctic Warrior, for reminding me of Bergdahl who, yes, has been held for 3 years.  But that one instance really proves my point, don't you think?  The list of those held/returned is not a long one, but the list of those psychologically damaged by SERE C-Level training is.

FrankKnottyfor
FrankKnottyfor 5pts

 @ArcticWarrior

 According to Sean, WP51 hollared and carried-on for a considerable period of time before anyone checked on him, which is disturbing, particularly in light of the special emphasis put on "our Prisoners are carefully monitored and evaluated" blather.  And, yes, it's hard to pass judgement since neither of us were there but Sean seemed to think the Interrogators weren't being as careful as they'd like you to think.

 

Good point, too, about the MFF situation.  Trust me, I'd be one of them--have a morbid fear of heights (though, curiously, I've flown around the world a number of times and have no fear of flying, even on some sketchy non-US trained pilot airlines, like Lloyd Aero Bolviano [LAB] ).  But what happens at the door in a MFF situation?  Does the attendee get pushed out anyhow, or permitted to step aside and go into some other aspect of military work?

 

But the need for MFFs are much greater than the likelihood of being captured by crazed Jihadists, so my judgement would be that MFF training is necessary, notwithstanding a certain percentage of mortality / mental problems with which it's associated.

 

As for what I'd suggest, I guess the answer is the: If we have a situation develop again, like Korea/VietNam, where substantial numbers of servicemen might be captured and held by the enemy for an extended period of time and are expected to be returned to the US eventually, then, yes, bring back RTL.  But right now, with sadly few exceptions, captured men are killed (I read the other day where the Taliban have actually put a price on the head of a dead American--not a live one, but a dead one) and I don't see the efficacy of spending all those funds on such RTL training when it's going to be going to waste, PLUS--the damage it's doing to significant numbers of servicemen.

 

Arctic, I also find it interesting that there's a contract with Yale University to use psychologists from there to do research on stress levels.  Maybe the Yalies are more interested in federal funding for their reseach than in what it's doing to servicemen???

 

So, this is what I think: RTL would seem to me to be appropriate for situations where the enemy intends to hold anyone they can catch for extended periods of time, like Korea/VietNam.  But that's not today's world, so there's very little need.  And the number of servicemen who're psychologically damaged by RTLs is significant.

 

And, yes, too, -- if anyone's captured, give them all the help they need to return to regular military/civilian life, if they return.

 

Would it be possible to do classroom instrucition, with frequent follow-up training instructions, about what to expect and how to react?  Might that accomplish the same result as the RTL?

 

And, yes, I'd keep the S/S training.  Not a bad thing to know, although different types of terrain would suggest different types of training, but that's another issue.

 

And one final point: I'm sure that the Interrogators get lots of training, even if they're contractual and not regular military, but if you scratch away all the reasons for wanting to help captured servicemenbers survive capture, at the bottom of being an Interrogator there's one small psychological issue: they get something out of hurting defenseless Prisoners (did you ever hear about the Stanford Univ. experiment where two groups of students were arbitrarily chosen to be Interrogators or Prisoners?--had to stop the experiment.  It's an interesting case study).  I know they go through screening and all the other stuff, but normal men don't seek to throw around/harm defenseless men.

 

And I'd like to suggest that the women who perform the sexual embarrassment section have other issues.  Who knows, maybe they were abused by their fathers/brothers/funny uncles/etc., and this is a way to "get back" psychologically.  Or maybe they're just man-hating lesbians.  Who knows?

 

But the psychological motivations for getting into that kind of work by Interrogators is a side issue.  My main point is that RTLs today are preparing servicemen for a situation that's very unlikely to occur, and damaging a whole lot of servicemen in the process. 

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @FrankKnottyfor  Thats a goodpoint on where or what the Cadre were doing with WP51, having not been there its hard to pass judgement. And no I dont believe permanent, debilitating life-long psychological harm is good, but as Sean has said you know kinda what your getting into. But we also get injured and or killed at other schools. There are debilatating injuries even for attendee's of basic airborne, people who flat out mentally lose it at the door. How many serious injuries and or deaths have occured at MFF over the years? I get what your saying, and you have some valid points but I take it as you want to eliminate the RTL and keep the Evasion and Escape modules and TTPs???

 

FrankKnottyfor
FrankKnottyfor 5pts

 @ArcticWarrior

 I guess I'm not being clear about my views--what I'm saying is that there doesn't seem to be the proper balance if there are 5 times as many US servicemen who are psychologically permanently harmed than are saved.

 

In the best of all worlds, no one at C-Level would be harmed but, sadly, we know that's not true.  SERE C-Level Interrogators, for all the talk about how well they're trained and how closely their activities are monitored, etc., do real and permanent damage to Prisoners, and not just 2 or 3 Prisoners---this very blog contained comments about War Criminal 51 who was harmed, and this was just in one group.  Where were the well-trained, closely monitored Interrogators when War Chriminal 51 was clearly showing serious psychological trauma?  Where were the Monitors when the Interrogator sliced the eye of first one, then another Prisoner?  Waterboarding--I agree with Senator McCain--is torture and is not only useless as a training exercise but actually harmful to the trainees.  Where is some Common-Sense in all of this?

 

I guess what I'm asking is this:  Should we ruin the lives of 5 men who are mock Prisoners for the emotional honor of one man?   Because that's the ratio according to Senate testimony.

 

Do you think that doing permanent, debilitating life-long psychological harm by SERE Interrogators is good public policy?

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @FrankKnottyfor

 It may not be a long list, but even one is too many. In 07, OIF, 2 10th Mountain guys were grabbed and held for what a year plus? So it happens, true not as much as during Korea or Vietnam but the risk is there, especially for attendees selected for SERE-C who jobs are theatre wide, as opposed to Corp or Division wide as seen in the conflicts of back in the day.

  The Korean peninsula could erupt at any moment, AFRICOM could be next,Somali pirates are making a bonanza off of civilians ransom, imagine a JSOC or Aircrew memeber who would be grabbed, you dont think they realize the propaganda and cash value of that? SOCOM guys are in how many countries engaged in OEF?? (OEF-P, OEF-HOA etc)....there are other places that could go hot, places where POWs would indeed be held still exist so using Astan as the barometer for SERE-C is misguided. The Maginot Line comparison is really not valid, right?

SEAN SPOONTS
SEAN SPOONTS 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

@FrankKnottyfor Interesting post. Especially about the former SERE head shrinker's testimony before congress. If you can scare up a link I'd like to read his testimony. I'm surprised the breakage rate was that high. Most of us had months to psychologically prepare to go to that school. Our mindset was not one of dread terror of the experience. We were a pretty competitive bunch and SERE was a ticket you had to punch to get fully rated as a Naval Air Crewman. Flunk SERE and you were done. We were told not to gouge the course and prior attendees in the squadron kept pretty quiet, but I cheated(sorta) and picked up a book about POW experiences in WWII, Korea and Vietnam. So I kinda knew in advance what qualities would get me thru the course. It did help quite a lot. I found the evasion part more physically difficult than the resistance part. Here's the thing, you went into the course knowing they couldn't kill you or disfigure you or otherwise mangle you to the point that could couldn't continue to serve so I didn't get too worked up over what they could do short of that. Back in the 1980s they could beat on you a bit. But, even I could tell it was tightly controlled, even to the point of them carefully gauging the distance from your face when they slapped you. As an aside I always thought all the protests over torture were terribly misguided and shortsighted. As soon as we took the prospect of being tortured and killed off the table(whether we did it or not) we handed the terrorists in our custody a big psychological advantage over their interogators. They knew the biggest threat to them personally was off the table and the definition what constituted "torture" was subjected to a political definition that made anything but polite requests for cooperation into criminal abuse. As for your question about why have C-Level training, I suppose its for the benefit of the 96.5% who are psychologically armored by the experience. You really don't want the 3.5% who are damaged just by the training experience to fall into enemy hands. Some of the stories about US service members who collaborated with the Vietnamese communists while in captivity would boil your blood.

FrankKnottyfor
FrankKnottyfor 5pts

 @SEAN SPOONTS  @FrankKnottyfor

 In re-reading what I've written, I noticed that I failed to comment on something.

 

I believe that the United States has been and continues to be a moral beacon for the rest of the world (and I've been to lots of the "other" places).   If we use "enhanced interrogation techniques", aka torture, that weakens our moral stance and we become hypocrites.

 

Additionally, if you read the postings by psychologists about torture you find out that the quality of information isn't high and that a non-torture approach gains much more useful information (and, now, before others start the Bleeding Heart Liberal banter, I would assure you I'm anything but that).  And if we're after useful information, rather than simply reacting out of rage, the latter approach gains you more.

 

And, finally (I appreciate your measured comments, btw), continuing SERE C level pow camps to weed out the weak 3.5% is fine BUT if you're goining to be murdered it doesn't seem to matter (am I missing something here???).   And, yes, the collaborators in Korea and VietNam were a national disgrace, but that was then and this is now, and a captured serviceman in Afghanistan or Somalia can choose to collaborate or not but it won't matter since he's almost certaintly going to be killed.

FrankKnottyfor
FrankKnottyfor 5pts

@crazyottojr @FrankKnottyfor @SEAN SPOONTS Back when you went through, Crazyotto, the pow camp lasted 5 days, didn't it?  Now, it's only 3 days.  Why do you think that is?

I thought everyone who went to SERE C Level had been thoroughly vetted psychologically beforehand, but we know that a percentage suffer emotional breakdowns, and suffer them notwithstanding the supposed careful oversight by highly trained instructors.

crazyottojr
crazyottojr 5pts

@FrankKnottyfor @SEAN SPOONTS Again  weeding out those who crack excessively under pressure is necessary to save lives. I sincerely doubt that anyone who has gone through SERE school has any lasting psychological issues unless they had some to begin with. Simply by being a member of the Armed Forces you have accepted the fact you may well be in some type of combat or high stress situation. Not everyone is cut out for it. Training is designed not only to prepare you but find out if you can possibly handle it. By softening the process you do no one a favor and you put lives in danger. SERE school is a great training school.

FrankKnottyfor
FrankKnottyfor 5pts

 @SEAN SPOONTS  @FrankKnottyfor

 The testimony was by Dr. Jerald Ogrisseg, a psychologist who had been in the military, retired, and then returned as a contract civilian.  I googled "SERE psychologist congress" and it popped up.

 

As for their not being able to kill, disfigure, or otherwise mangle a person, from what I've read on other blogs that's not necessarily so: one recounted how an Interrogator had a longer little fingernail that sliced into a Prisoner's eye and, then, repeated that with another Prisoner.  And I read in one of the reports that, in fact, two servicemen have died during interrogations and I suspect that, even after you discount rumormongering, there have been servicement physically damaged--broken bones would seen the most likely.

 

What would seem to my mind the more serious problem is the psychological damage SERR C-Level situations cause.  In our blog here, War Prisoner 51 obviously was damaged, though we never found out whether that was permanent or was treatable.

 

I have two basic points:

 

(1) Senator John McCain (R-AZ) has steadfastly maintained that waterboarding was torture.   All the protestations about how controlled it was, how there was a physician present, how the teams practiced getting a man off the board, etc., doesn't change the underlying fact: waterboarding is always torture.  Dr. Osrisseg's testimony said that the intent of SERE training was to prove to servicement that they could withstand prisoner-of-war situations but that waterboarding was always 100% successful in breaking a man and, thus, taught the very opposite of what SERE training was all about.  And unless someone reading these postings knows more recent information, all the SERE pow camps discontinued waterboarding EXCEPT for Warner Springs (USN).  Why would they possible continue doing it?   The only explanation I can imagine, and I'd be eager to hear other viewpoints, is that it's considered a Right-Of-Passage----you know, the "I had to go through it and, dammit, you will, too" mentality.

 

(2) SERE C-Level training creates more problems than it solves.  If Dr. Osrisseg's testimony before the US Senate is correct, permanently psychologically damaging servicemembers so that truly captured servicemembers could return home with honor seems counterintuitive.  You said that the percentage harmed seemed high, but in the account we read one of the relatively few servicemen in your group went over the cliff. If that happened to just one serviceman in each group, and DOD runs 5 such faux-pow camps, well, then, the numbers add up.

 

What's even more disturbing about Dr. Ogrisseg's testimony is that those servicemen who appeared to be restored to good psychological health after their experiences were never followed-up to be certain of their continued good mental health.  I remember reading one poster's comment that his VietNam SERE pow camp had left him with "issues" in dealing with Asian women, and another one (a graduate of the East Coast Navy pow camp in New England) recounted how he was unusually adverse to cold weather.  What would happen, I wonder, if the former serviceman with Asian women issues was in a business confrontation with one? 

 

Continuing SERE C Level activities in a day when the enemy--Jihadists--prefer to kill their captives rather than hold them in pow camps, as was done in WWII//Korea//VietNam, reminds me the the French military after WW-I--creating the Maginot Line to deter German tanks.  In other words, fighting the next war with the last war's tactics.

 

Awhile back I read the paperback version of the story of the heliocopter pilot in Somalia who was captured and who had undergone SERE C Level training and how it helped him, but as I recall the Somali terrorists killed all his crewmen but himself and he was held specifically as a bargaining tool to gain the release of some Somalis the terrorists wanted returned.

 

Things in government tend to prove the law of physics that a body in motion continues in motion until a countervailing force intervenes.  Continuing C-Level pow camps continues because at one time it truly was beneficial but, today, a rational person would have to ask whether that were still true.

 

FrankKnottyfor
FrankKnottyfor 5pts

@crazyottojr @FrankKnottyfor @SEAN SPOONTS Crazyotto, you say that Senator McCain has an agenda but didn't say what you thought it was.  Would you tell us, please?

Also, you may want to Youtube "Jesse Ventura Waterboarding"---seems as though Gov. Ventura, who was waterboarded in his SEAL training, thinks it's torture, just like Sen. McCain.  Why would Ventura say that?  What's his agenda?

FrankKnottyfor
FrankKnottyfor 5pts

@crazyottojr @FrankKnottyfor @SEAN SPOONTS Crazyotto, I would agree totally with you that, when you went through the POW camps in 1975, the year Saigon fell to the VietCong, a pow camp experience was necessary---no doubt in my mind at all about that.  But that was then and this is now and, unless you're going to suggest that nothing changes, I believe that the POW SERE C Level camp is an anachonism today.  "The only constant is change."

FrankKnottyfor
FrankKnottyfor 5pts

@crazyottojr @FrankKnottyfor @SEAN SPOONTS Crazyotto, one of the things that we know is going-on in our society today is that, if you disagree with someone, instead of talking about the points the other person's trying to make, that person is told to be quiet.  People either are FOX fans or MSNBC fans and to listen to the other side is heresy.

I'm trying to express my views about waterboarding and the SERE C Level pow camps and their relevency in 2013.

crazyottojr
crazyottojr 5pts

@FrankKnottyfor @SEAN SPOONTS Frank I don't imagine that you went through SERE school so I think you should probably shut the lid. I was not special ops. but a regular AW Air Crew and the training gave a young sailor a glimpse into what kind of possible shit he might be getting into. The fact that  51 went nuts in training saved his life and the probably the life of others. McCain has an agenda and although I respect his time as a POW there are plenty former POWs who disagree with the Senator. He is not the final word on the matter. Waterboarding may well appear to be torture for some but I can remember that I just wanted it over with and in no way did I suffer as a result. I am not sure why you are posting on here anyway.

9505
9505 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

For a web site  that likes to consider itself the moral watch dog of opsec i'm disappointed to see your experience posted open source.  You probably don't need to be reminded that you signed a non disclosure statement you first day of the SERE course.  Way to go leading by example d bag

TKW406
TKW406 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @9505 Your complete lack of respect for the author and/or this site removes any credibility you may have had.  "D bag"?? Seriously??  You've shown everyone here your true colors and it only took one immature comment to do it.  

GreenTip556
GreenTip556 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

@TKW406 @9505 TKW, there's nothing wrong with a dissenting opinion either. The whole idea of this site is FREE exchange of information. 9505 is entitled to his opinion and voice. It is a valid concern to protect OPSEC. The irony here again is that there are not more people out there guarding this info like 9505. If there were in the past, I'm sure SERE grads would have a different attitude toward protecting stale intel. As far as "D-Bag" goes, I'm sure people on this site are thick-skinned enough to defend themselves or press on without too much offense taken.

Tango9
Tango9 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @9505  @TKW406 unless this shitbag opens another lifefyre account, I punted his ass.  He's out.

 

If you disagree you're welcome to hit the comms check tab.


side note to E-3 x:  get over it already.  fkn really?

9505
9505 5pts

 @TKW406 Thank you TW that means a lot coming from you.  I cant wait to post on every ones comment so that on day i may have as many points as you. 

TKW406
TKW406 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @9505   That was much better 9505!  You were clear, concise, and made very good points.  I knew you could do it.  You get a gold star for today.   TW out.

9505
9505 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @TKW406  @GreenTip556 I created an account solely for the purpose of stating my opinion on the subject.  As for my credibility i have non.  I feel no need to reveal anything i may or may not have done to gain the respect of someone writing under a pseudonym whom i will never meet.  I do recognize this site as a reputable source of information, and further understand it to be a place were young americans contemplating to serve our nation frequent.  The author reveled no resistance techniques, TTP's or any other information classified secret, however the information is still FOUO.  Green tip 556 you are right the intel is stale and SERE is the worst best kept secret in the military.  The problem is that even though the info is in circulation we still have an obligation to protect it.  And if the author of the story is that butt hurt about being referred to as a dbag than i will gladly give him an opportunity at a retribution throat punch.  9505 out.

TKW406
TKW406 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @GreenTip556 Copy 556.  But you don't come in here and with your very first comment spew insults and the founder of the site.  You act like an adult and voice your dissenting opinion along w/ your counter points in a respectful manner.  Period.

GreenTip556
GreenTip556 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

Remember, if you can speak intelligently on the topic on SERE school, you've been called worse ;)

GreenTip556
GreenTip556 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

@9505 While I Takenup no one's position here, I would say that I welcome the open knowledge. It's the worst kept open secret in special programs training. Everyone has the same scenario (hint:C-130s seem To go down a lot in the PDR), the course does not adapt as much as necessary, and all the confidential TTPs are now open source information. Short of resistance techniques, which the author did NOT mention, nothing isn't posted here that I haven't heard from people who haven't even gone to the course. Everyone knows exactly what happens their anyway which removes the intended stress/fear inoculation of evasion and captivity, which is the ultimate goal of the course. hopefully this prompts the change necessary to see that the course becomes the pants-shitting, infamous training course students are promised, but not delivered. It's a terrible thing when a piece of paper like an NDA doesn't hold it's weight because of, ironically In this instance, people who have been talking about it for years.

grover93
grover93 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

I was in the box next to u, good times, that was the only time I got sleep.

GreenTip556
GreenTip556 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

Anyone remember the "Juggernaut" at Warner Springs? That was a big bastard with some serious anger issues! Those "ration" didn't look that good anyways....lol. Although I must say, some of us could have had a career in rock gardening! Lovingly, War Criminal 51

awwwcripesagain
awwwcripesagain 5pts

There is a VAST difference between referring to yourself as a "War Prisoner" and a "War Criminal".  The difference is the added love and affection of the Provost. 

Sincerely,

War Prisoner 39

CJCJ
CJCJ 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

My memory the box was that it was smaller than 3 feet. I didn't mind it - I actually kind of enjoyed the solitude of it. Then some dip-shit a few boxes over decided it was time to freak out. Not sure if he was a plant or the real deal but I lean towards the latter. Guess there's one in every group. A *** classmate of mine decided to do his Johnny Rambo imitation. He was a big guy and seriously mouthing off to some guards. So those guards sent this huge guard in to "reason" with him. "C" was lifted off his feet and by his collar and shaken like a rag doll. Never seen anything like it. And no shit - another classmate "G"  actually escaped. But I'll never tell how he did it...Sssshhhhh. 

SEAN SPOONTS
SEAN SPOONTS 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

@CJCJ Being relatively warm and dry in the cell was much better than being really cold and wet. Lol I didn't mind the box either, or them beating on it instead of you.

GreenTip556
GreenTip556 5pts

Boots, boots, boots...all Glory to great nation of PDR!!!

SEAN SPOONTS
SEAN SPOONTS 5pts

@GreenTip556 I remember that! It was Kipling. I recall the voice that read it being so crazy and hysterical. I remember it getting funny to hear after a while but you'd get beat for laughing at it in your cell. Back in the 80's they played middle eastern music thru the speakers. Remember the "position?"

GreenTip556
GreenTip556 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @SEAN SPOONTS  @GreenTip556 Ahh the middle eastern music..."Hak-a-sha. Hak-a-hak-a-hak-asha..." and then it speeds up. I remember hearing "position" once. After that it was "proper posish!". Also known as "Sweet, no ones looking. Time to pretend I'm taking a dump so I can get this block out from under my ass and sleep until someone beats me!"

SEAN SPOONTS
SEAN SPOONTS 5pts

@GreenTip556 @SEAN SPOONTS My sleep trick just came together. I noticed that they kicked the door before they opened the peephole cover to look in on you. I also noticed that the flathead screw for that peephole cover was on my side of the door. I had stolen a paperclip during the soft-sell interview and used to it crank down that screw as tight as I could. I would sleep leaning against the door, The guard would kick it, waking me up. While he fumbled trying to get the peephole cover open that gave me a few seconds to scamble into the "posish" and look like a model war criminal(#47). After he left I'd crank the screw down again and resume sleeping. I also managed to escape the music. The speaker was overhead in a cut out in the ceiling of the cell with a chicken wire cover. It was affixed with a bracket with two screws. In my cell one of the screws was missing. I used the paperclip to pivot the speaker off the chicken wire so it was blaring into the hard ceiling instead of my cell. The result was very muffled. After doing it I thought I'd screwed myself. That the guards would notice for sure and I'd get bounced, but they never seemed to catch on.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts

 @GreenTip556

 Hands in Pockets....

GreenTip556
GreenTip556 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

@ArcticWarrior GRAB RAGS!!!

This comment has been deleted

Liberty Flyer
Liberty Flyer 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

So did you go to "advanced beatings" after the basic SERE course? That was an extra week of fun...

GreenTip556
GreenTip556 5pts

 @Liberty Flyer Advanced beatings! Also known as "my ear hasn't stopped ringing long enough to hear why he's beating the crap out of me! Time for some "wall love"! where'd that section of padded wall go? uh-oh...."

Motojunky27
Motojunky27 5pts

Do NSW candidates run through their own SERE school or do they attend Navy SERE?

GreenTip556
GreenTip556 5pts

@Motojunky27 I had 2 Bird-Bearing SEALs in my class. It seems like they squeezed it in before they sent them to follow on training. Almost like an afterthought. That was back in '05 so who knows with all the changes such as the new rate and consolidated SQT curriculum

shagstar
shagstar 5pts

my brother,a retired A-6 Intruder aviator,told me about his SERE experience pretty much the same way you did.

he received a broken nose for his troubles and said that course broke about a 1/4 of his group!

great story BW

ShinigamiDred
ShinigamiDred 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

I've always wondered, but has anyone actually successfully escaped? What happens then, early POW release or just a more unpleasant POW experience?

SEAN SPOONTS
SEAN SPOONTS 5pts

@ShinigamiDred An escape would get you a meal and a few hours rest, but then you would return to the cells. I got sent outside the wire to dump trash with another guy and I watched the guy in the tower watch us until we reached the trash heap. Then he turned around. I told the guy I was with that we should make a break for it but he said he was too weak and tired to try.(the snow was waist high) I told him to start pulling the two wheeled wagon back slowly and that I was going to bolt. When I looked back up the guard was looking right at me again. And there went my chance.

Liberty Flyer
Liberty Flyer 5pts

@ShinigamiDred I had a buddy in AFSOC escape along with a PJ. Nobody escaped from my class, but it does happen.

Silkki6
Silkki6 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

Thank you Mr.Webb for this story, keep 'em coming! Now I know that this may sound a bit ridiculous (we are a small [and proud] nation and we do not have such a mighty military as US), but if any of you guys have been co-operating with Finns (for example in Afghanistan), please let me know! As a Finn I would be very interested to hear some insight about what other nations militaries think about our military forces.

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