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Home » Admin » Drone Strike: ST-6 Says Zero Dark Thirty Inaccurate

Drone Strike: ST-6 Says Zero Dark Thirty Inaccurate

by Brandon Webb · January 13, 2013 · Posted In: Admin
Norwegian-SOF-SOFREP-SEAL-Team-six
VIRGINIA BEACH, VA- An anonymous Public Affairs Officer (PAO) for Seal Team Six says the movie “Zero Dark Thirty” is factually inaccurate, portraying Seal Team Six members like the douchebags from Seal Team Two.

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“At one point Joel Edgarton’s character wears a polo shirt with a popped collar,” the PAO said. “Team Six doesn’t do that. We’re the baddest motherfuckers on the planet. We don’t wear shit like Tapout shirts, Ed Hardy jeans, or fedoras. That’s Team Two.”

The members of Seal Team Two, who the rest of the Special Warfare community calls “very special operators,” gained their reputation in the last decade as the Navy’s demand for SEALs skyrocketed. Not enough sailors were passing Basic Underwater Demolition/Seal (BUD/S) training, so SEAL Team Two began recruiting civilians from local tanning salons and UFC parties. Actual SEALs in Team Two were transferred to other units, including the illustrious Team 11

“Team Two is a joke,” the PAO from SEAL Team Six said.  “Their PT uniform is a sleeveless t-shirt with slits down the side so people can check out their rib tats. On their last deployment they petitioned the White House to open a Hooters in Afghanistan. A few years ago they spent their entire training budget to make a calendar,” the PAO paused. “What’s up with that guy second from the right?”

Read the rest on the Duffle Blog.

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About The Author

Brandon Webb

Brandon Webb is a former U.S. Navy SEAL with combat deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan, and elsewhere in the Middle East. His last tour in the SEAL Teams was as the Course Manager for the US Navy SEAL Sniper program, arguably one of the most difficult sniper courses in the world. He was formerly a contributing editor for Military.com, and currently the Editor-in-Chief of SOFREP.com. Brandon is regularly featured in the media as a subject matter expert on military affairs. An avid writer, his last two books (The Red Circle, & Benghazi: The Definitive Report) both hit the New York Times best seller list, and his writing has been featured in print, and digital media worldwide. You can follow him on Twitter @BrandontWebb

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Coriolis effect
Coriolis effect 5pts

That team 11 link is a joke right

majrod
majrod 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

For those out there that like to read the actual source vs letting someone else interpet them for you a treasure trove of documents are available.

 

FP did an article and has the discussion transcript between Vickers and Boal (ZD30) listed,  http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/01/17/the_dynamite_pentagon_interview_behind_zero_dark_thirty?page=0,1

 

and here's another link to all the documents that were given to the Hollywood producer along with the e-mail traffic.  http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB410/

 

BTW, no word yet on the Gov't investigation that was supposed to loook at security leaks from the regime for  political gain (not that's a surprise to any independent thinkers)

dickftr
dickftr 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

Hostages taken in Algeria, American's ,Japanese Norwegian ,French,...   by Alq.  I hoped  Algeria was stable but not so?

Txazz
Txazz 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @dickftr Having supported a peaceful solution to the escalating conflict in Mali, President Abdelaziz Bouteflikagave gave the go ahead Tuesday for French aircraft to fly over Algerian airspace.

 

uh oh. . .

dickftr
dickftr 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Txazz Hey Pard , we have appiled for our MWD .Lot of question's on the application  that may keep us from adopting an MWD here on this ranch, due to the time the dog may spend unsupervised. We have a very large kennel but I cannot just take him or her into cattle right off the bat. I do not expect this dog to do any thing with or about cattle, aint his MOS, AIT. Her job will be cover and perimeter of HQ. Tx azz,thanks for all info and wish a dog our way.Damn the tear's and emotion. George is on his own and I have his 6. Getting 6 egg's every day.

Txazz
Txazz 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @dickftr we are over in the new articles Iassen just posted - the hostages and Mali.  come on over and join us.

dickftr
dickftr 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Txazz  @dickftr I don't start colt's anymore. I showed some some cutter's while at Pitchfork in the ranch horse class. I'm just a cowboy with a good Woman  I call Patti. A Patriot , Army vet,. Ladd and Ree live north about 12 mile's. I try to keep my shot's inside the 9 ring @ 1,000 yard's.

Txazz
Txazz 5pts

 @dickftr I'll tell you what - I love you cowboys who love your wives.  That's God's very best.  I know the Drummond Ranch - Ree and Lad Drummond.

Well, I sure know Lubbock as some family still lives there.  You know they had snow again this year.  Crazy weather.  You betcha.

Find me in here when you get more news and I'm excited George will soon have a pal.

dickftr
dickftr 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Txazz Did not know. talked to hundred's of them .I have punched cow's on Waggoner, Pithcfork, 6666 ,06 ,Begg's,Tongue River and am now workin for Drummond ranch in OK. Luv them TX women and I luv my Okie wife. Luv yu to Txazz.. yer help is appreciated. Pitchfork ranch, ring any bell's? East of Lubbock 80 miles. Some pretty women out there straddle a horse.

Txazz
Txazz 5pts

 @dickftr Great news, Pard and there could be just the dog for you.  They also deal in animals who did 'not make the grade' in training so perhaps would be less trained as a military dog who might qualify.  That one org (not Lackland had non military dogs it seems to me).  would have to find and reread that one.  Am going to be praying you find just the one for your ranch no matter where he comes from.

Thought I should bend your ear and ask if you knew you were talkin' to a Texas woman.  lol 

Txazz
Txazz 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

@dickftr

Hey DM, did you see this.  been saving it for you.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/07/pictures/110718-snow-leopard-population-rebounding-afghanistan/

 

-BLACK-
-BLACK- 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @LauraKinCA  @dmalert  It is a term used to describe the 800mg horse pill.   They pass them out like candy in the military as the prescribe them for everything. 

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts

 @BLACK01  @dmalert

 Ranger candy.... LOL, it that what you guys call it?? Pretty funny and yes, it did help.

-BLACK-
-BLACK- 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @LauraKinCA  @dmalert    Nothing like a little Ranger candy to set the mood aye.   

Julesy
Julesy 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @oldSquid  @Txazz  @dickftr The Chattanooga Zoo has some adorable snow leopard cubs.

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @dmalert

 Well, you sound chipper :) I'm better, but was draggin' ass at the end of the day... turned into a 800mg ibuprofen late afternoon to get rid of my "meeting headache". The gang here is always good to get me in a better mood.

dmalert
dmalert 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @LauraKinCA I'm the hell good!  Et tu

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @dmalert

How the hell are you? Been running around at meetings all day and this thread wouldn't load all the way down ... frickin' LiveFire!

dmalert
dmalert 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @oldSquid  @Txazz  @dickftr They're beautiful animals.

dmalert
dmalert 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @LauraKinCA  LOL 

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @dmalert  @Txazz  @dickftr

 All you need now is a snarly pic that you can change out for the occasional irate look :) I like the one rubbing up against the rock formation.

oldSquid
oldSquid 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @Txazz  @dickftr

 That's good news. Of all the panthera species, my favorite two are the Siberian Tiger and Snow Leopard. While going to college, I worked at the Knoxville Zoo in the large cat habitat. We had several Siberians - which tend to be the largest Tigers, and a couple Snow Leopards. I think I liked them because of the fur and something about how they would watch us keepers... just cool and collected like

dmalert
dmalert 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Txazz  Wakhan is such a desolate part of Afghanistan.  I can imagine Marco Polo passing through it with a caravan 700 years ago.  Must have been astounded by the beauty.  Wonder if any of his animals were attacked by snow leopards in the wee hours of the night. 

 

Nice that some parts of the world remain relatively untouched.

dmalert
dmalert 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Txazz  @dickftr Very nice!  Thanks - cool photos.  Glad to see they are thriving in Afghanistan....

HugeFan
HugeFan moderator 5pts

Funny as HELL!

BulletTooth32
BulletTooth32 5pts

hahahahah the article about team eleven is just too damn funny! who comes up with this stuff?

majrod
majrod 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 9 Like

BTW, classified State Dep't cable leaked today.  Syria has used chem.

 

http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2013/01/15/secret_state_department_cable_chemical_weapons_used_in_syria

 

We won't do anything.  Like one poster said...

 

Obama's Response #1: You crossed the red line. Go ahead, do it again, I dare you.

Obama's Response #2: He didn't cross the red line we were talking about.

Obama's Response #3: What? I didn't see anything.

flhtse05
flhtse05 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @majrod

 All the crap I have read, incuding Gen McChrystals book about the WMD in Iraq and AQ in Iraq before the invasion. This crap fro m King Obummer, this is the party that let AQ grow and only threw a couple of bombs at a milk factory. I expect nothing less from the Muslim in Chief!

RedWanderer
RedWanderer 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 14 Like

Bottom line:  Nobody cares.

 

Don't get me started on this subject; blood will squirt from my eyes.

 

I'm sooooo ready to make people take tests before voting now. 

 

Question 1:  Can you tell me who Nevel Chamberlain was?

 

Question 2:  Can you tell me the difference between our debt and deficit?

 

Can't answer those, ok, well, they're critical to being a good citizen but it's ok, we'll make it easier.

 

Question 3:  Can you show me where the Persian Gulf is on a map?  Hint, it's that big gulf in the Middle East.

 

Can't answer that, well how about naming your two Senators. 

 

Can't answer that, then how about what 10 trillion plus 6 trillion equals?

 

If they can't answer one of these questions, it's a FAIL, no voting for you.

 

Ok, this is just one of my fantasies but it makes me feel better .......

 

 

 

 

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 8 Like

 @RedWanderer

 I would skip the Neville bit as he is English and ask  " What document begins with " We the People....."?

theAtrium (banned)
theAtrium (banned) 5pts

 @majrod  

" When and who mentioned the Domino theory before we invaded?  Where they key  decision makers in the administration?  Again, you fall prey to revisionist  history. "

 

Wolfowitz and gang mentioned it, but I don't think the gang really bought into it, it was part of their ever evolving rationale to invade Iraq. If you track Wolfowitz' thought process from the early 90s and on, you can see these justifications being stacked on top of each other. There's more in the gang's memoirs, but I'd have to re-borrow these books over again--the evolution of this rationale.

 

Samantha Power and gang, now those crazy folks believe in democracy.

 

 

" How does the spat between Wolfowitz and Shinseki support we wanted to install a  democracy in Iraq?  It doesn’t from my reading.  He pooh poohed the  numbers. "

 

He pooh poohed the numbers citing the Iraqi professional middle class were going to take up the slack as soon as the regime fell. You're right "regime change" didn't necessarily mean Democracy, but who in 2003 would convince others that another Saddam in Iraq would be a great idea, after regime change?

 

 

 

" Even more so if one ignores that one is over a DECADE and the other over

FIVE  years BEFORE the Iraq invasion and you were trying to make the case that Clinton wanted a Democracy in Iraq. "

 

Clinton didn't want anything to do with Iraq. I shared those links to showcase Wolfowitz' evolving rationale to go into Iraq, they finally got their best reasons after 9/11. But he and others have been wanting to fuck that poodle, since getting blue balls after the Gulf War I, is my point.

 

 

 

 

" While many whole heartedly condemn Iraq what would the world situation look like  if Saddam had remained in power.  Afghanistan would be the same unless we  made a decision to take on nuclear armed Pakistan.  Iran may not be as  influential in Iraq but what’s to say that Saddam may have not come to an  accommodation or worse, restarted his own nuke program seeing how ineffectively  we’ve dealt with Iran. "

 

Agree with Af-Pak and Iran. I gotta feeling the world situation would've been more manageable had Saddam been left alone, and less of our boys (and girls) dead. The juice just wasn't worth the squeeze, but that's neither here or there.

 

I like your perspective though, and agree with you that BW wasn't conservative, hell more Hispanics voted for that guy than Romney could ever wish for.

 

 

 

 

 

" We really need to carry this on elsewhere though and just to be clear I don't  think your a lefty or blame America hippie. "

 

Great talk, thanks truly. As for hippie, I prefer the term metrosexual, my go to site when logging online is Uncrate.com and the Art of Manliness.

 

ps~ I'll keep looking for more on the democracy domino theory, you can see bits and pieces of this though in Bush's speeches pre-invasion, but you're right I don't think there was an actual white paper laid out, like the Kirkpatrick doctrine, etc. I still owe you that one. Again thanks for this talk.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

@ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA

 

majrod
majrod 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @TheAtrium  BTW & FTR I'm not "pro Bush".  The guy like his daddy was NEVER a conservative.  I think he did an overall great job with a unique enemy.  The Patriot Act is necessary but highly flawed.  He gave drunken sailors a bad name ref his spending and his fiscal policies e.g  TARP made us all the worse and served as an excuse for even worse spending to the point that it's a national security issue.

 

I defend him at times because the onslaught is ridiculous in its slant and largely iuncontested effforts to rewrite history.  Ever heard the "two wars" line?

 

We really need to carry this on elsewhere though and just to be clear I don't think your a lefty or blame America hippie.

 

 

 

@ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA

 

majrod
majrod 5pts

@TheAtrium  “After there were no WMDs found they REVERTED to their original premise was the point of that Bush Nov '03 speech.” (emphasis added)

 

No.  “Revert” means you have to have the original premise sometime previously.  There is no evidence that before we invaded we had espoused the spreading of Democracy as one of the reasons to invade.  “A new regime” is far from a democratic one.

 

When and who mentioned the Domino theory before we invaded?  Where they key decision makers in the administration?  Again, you fall prey to revisionist history.

 

There was substantial evidence that Saddam had WMD and it was not just the US and BOTH its political parties that accepted it as credible.  I won’t belabor you with the very recognizable names and quotes.    Curveball, Plame etc. all gained notoriety AFTER the fact with the wisdom of 20/20 hindsight. 

How does the spat between Wolfowitz and Shinseki support we wanted to install a democracy in Iraq?  It doesn’t from my reading.  He pooh poohed the numbers.

 

“I understand we can chase each others' tails on semantics and what was said and how it was said, but the point is the Iraq War was 10 yrs in the making when we finally went into Iraq in 2003.” Agree but that mutually agreed upon fact coupled with Democrat agreement on what a threat Saddam was should cause pause in anyone exercising independent thought that spreading democracy wasn’t one of the reasons to invade Iraq.

 

Your links to the 1992 Def Planning Guidance and the letter written Clinton are interesting .  Even more so if one ignores that one is over a DECADE and the other over FIVE years BEFORE the Iraq invasion and you were trying to make the case that Clinton wanted a Democracy in Iraq.  Unfortunately like the overwhelming majority of analysis into “why Iraq” it ignores the singular most important reason for why OIF happened, that being 9-11.  Pundits and historians singularly ignore the mood of the nation, an overwhelming threat, concern, evidence for the capability of an attack and flush with what appeared a resounding defeat of Al Qeada, all serve as driving factors to eliminate an adversary (contrary to any analysis of any other conflict we’ve entered, hmmmmmm).  Then there’s the untouched subjects that unlike Pakistan, Iran, Libya etc. Saddam underestimated the US again and instead of defusing the situation held firm and even racheted up tensions. 

 

I’m always entertained by the “blame America first” crowd’s slanted “analysis” (not saying you are one though you have bought into their HEAVILY slanted and incomplete analysis) which isn’t so much analysis (an effort to learn)  as it is placing blame to achieve some sort of vicarious sense of supremacy over a deeply hated president they thought illegitimate and not up to the task at hand.  Yet a decade later we are still using almost all his policies and a highly capable military he largely is responsible for creating.

 

If we applied the same rigor and slanted analysis to WWII (or a slew of other wars) we had little justification for going to war against the Nazis except for the fact they declared war on us.  There is little to learn from that approach and hence why I reject it.

 

I try to base my analysis of Iraq from a military professionals professional perspective and not a political one.  If I was in the decision makers shoes without 20/20 hindsight what did I know or could I have known to make the best decision possible?  That’s how we learn from history vs. just repeat it. 

 

Since you brought up the largely unrelated domino theory, never a pre OIF reason for invasion I’d like to plant a seed.  While many whole heartedly condemn Iraq what would the world situation look like if Saddam had remained in power.  Afghanistan would be the same unless we made a decision to take on nuclear armed Pakistan.  Iran may not be as influential in Iraq but what’s to say that Saddam may have not come to an accommodation or worse, restarted his own nuke program seeing how ineffectively we’ve dealt with Iran.  These are issues never addressed by the Bush Derangement crowd but none the less make an impact on today’s decisions.  Mom told me, “everything happens for a reason”.  I didn’t like it much but no doubt I learned… 

 

There’s a lesson there…  :)   

 

Being this thread has gotten so long I suggest we continue the conversation elsewhere or at some other time.

@ArcticWarrior@LauraKinCA

 

theAtrium (banned)
theAtrium (banned) 5pts

 @majrod 

 

***I don’t contest that after invading Iraq the ball was fumbled badly.  I do contest that we had Democracy in Iraq as a goal, reason or justification for invading Iraq.  Stating so is simply rewriting history with 20/20 hindsight to fit a narrative.  That faulty analysis condemns the reader to learn inaccurate or wrong lessons from history.***

 

What's your narrative of the Iraq war and its justifications? And what are the lessons to be learned?

 

 

***The decision to foster a democracy in Iraq was made after we invaded and after it became obvious that the Iraqis were not going to rule themselves.  At first we tried a WWII approach with our military in charge but we never resourced Iraq like we did Germany.  The US Army was overwhelmed with just maintaining order let alone running courts, providing power or clean water (Shinseki’s 400k troops prediction was prophetic).  Into the vacuum stepped the US Gov’t and all the pain that followed.***

 

The ME Democracy domino theory was out there pre-invasion. The WWII approach was wrongly anticipated by Wolfowitz and gang, the battle with the number of troops put on the ground, stating that everything was going to be fine once they toppled the regime, because Iraq had oil and Iraqi professional middle class to keep the country's revenues going.

 

 

***Just an aside, I’m not comfortable with saying anybody can’t handle Democracy.  Saying so kind of puts one at odds with the Declaration of Independence.  Is life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness not for uneducated or non western peoples?  It’s a slippery slope when one argues that a certain people can’t handle democracy.  Now of course you haven’t said that but many that ascribe to the narrative and rewritten history of OIF do. ***

 

Democracy right after ME autocratic or royal rulers, who clamped down on every organization that posed a threat to their rule, leaving only the mosques. It's almost a no fucking brainer that given the choice everyone over their will "vote" Salafi--it's the only game in town. But we had to have gone through Iraq and Gaza to understand this. This was a big lesson learned in the ME recently.

 

Isn't this the reason most Nobamas complain about this administrations' abandon of Mubarak? Hell even Qaddafi and Assad. This is the perfect time for the Kirkpatrick doctrine, just replace Communism to the Salafi tide and that's justification enough to stand by with secular autocrats, because democracy over there, sadly is against our interests. Reform of which the Assad regime was known for, that, but this Arab Spring is no fuckin' bueno for us. There's no narrative, that's just common sense, both the right and left can agree on--which they do.

 

 

***Just to be clear I think Democracy is for everyone though it doesn’t have to look like ours.  Ancient Greek Democracy had many differences with how we practice it.  Even the Afghan Jirga qualifies as Democracy in my book.***

 

I agree with you 100%, I'd only add that we shouldn't be pushing Democracy down peoples' throats. I'm confident those days are over, we've been playing the hands off game since--Assad's killing their own people, that's not our problem; Mali, Algeria and Libya, France you fuckers handle it; Egypt, is a sad case since the officer corps is practically ours, but still at the end of the day I foresee no troop commitments, no wars, maybe just specialized units/contractors sent, but they're on their own.

 

 

 

 

 

 @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA 

theAtrium (banned)
theAtrium (banned) 5pts

@majrod

 

This is turning into an interesting discussion since most pro-Bush 00 and 04 that I've interfaced with usually agree that the Iraq adventure was all screwed up for all the wrong reasons. Some more clarification on my part is called for and will be below. Before we continue, is your position then that the justification to go into Iraq was WMDs and terrorism? Because I think most pro-Bush folk automatically choose Democracy promotion over the manufactured WMDs/terrorism rationale, they're less complicit. The latter being a little too related to the Gulf of Tonkin manufactured justification.

 

 

***My point was and remains creating a democracy was not a reason to invade Iraq as you originally stated.  "democracy building was also famously touted by the right (that's why we went  into Iraq, the WMDs was elaborate justification)."***

 

Fair enough. To be clear, "less touted by the right" would've been more appropriate, on my part, since the bulk of the focus was WMDs/terrorism. "Famously" refers to that administrations now published memoirs, Sec. Rice has wrote extensively of the private machinations that transpired in the background. More below...

 

 

 

***Nor was it “promotion of democracy” as you recently stated.  All that happened AFTER we invaded.  (BTW, your quote from Nov ‘03 is fine.  Problem is we invaded in Mar, eight months EARLIER)***

 

After there were no WMDs found they reverted to their original premise was the point of that Bush Nov '03 speech.

 

Here's a Feb '03 Bush quote: "A new regime in Iraq would serve as a dramatic and inspiring example of freedom for other nations in the region… Success in Iraq could also begin a new stage for Middle Eastern peace, and set in motion progress towards a fully democratic Palestinian state."

 

The Democracy domino theory was mentioned, maybe not as much as the WMDs/terrorist angle, but it was out there, and couple of years after was Hamas, remember? 

 

Re WMDs/terrorism, hindsight may be 20/20 but this was anticipated since the intel pro-WMDs was actually counterweighted more with the NO WMDs intel, this was how Plame and husband's investigation were outed, the infamous Curveball had many detractors here and abroad.

 

The reasons against going to war were suppressed.

 

 

 

***Finally, I have NEVER seen evidence to support your statement, “The lynchpin in the rationale behind regime change was the assumption that an Iraqi middle class could rebuild and administer a new democracy”.  That is definitely in line with the narrative.  Unfortunately history doesn’t support it.***

 

Read Wolfowitz' testimonies in Feb and Mar 03 to the House Appropriations Committee and House Budget Committee, when he and Gen. Shinseki had their little spat on how many troops to send to Iraq.

 

I understand we can chase each others' tails on semantics and what was said and how it was said, but the point is the Iraq War was 10 yrs in the making when we finally went into Iraq in 2003. Sure different justifications came up, WMDs/terrorism connected to 9/11 being the most clear and present they came up with.

 

When all that fell thru, they reverted back to the Democracy domino theory in the ME (we basically handed Hamas the Gaza strip because of this), since they had nothing else. But that's not to say the Democracy domino theory was never off the table, they used that justification along with others:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/iraq/etc/wolf.html

http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqclintonletter.htm

 

 

 

 

 

@ArcticWarrior @LauraKinCA 

majrod
majrod 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

@TheAtrium  My point was and remains creating a democracy was not a reason to invade Iraq as you originally stated.  "democracy building was also famously touted by the right (that's why we went  into Iraq, the WMDs was elaborate justification)."

 

Nor was it “promotion of democracy” as you recently stated.  All that happened AFTER we invaded.  (BTW, your quote from Nov ‘03 is fine.  Problem is we invaded in Mar, eight months EARLIER)

 

Finally, I have NEVER seen evidence to support your statement, “The lynchpin in the rationale behind regime change was the assumption that an Iraqi middle class could rebuild and administer a new democracy”.  That is definitely in line with the narrative.  Unfortunately history doesn’t support it.

 

I don’t contest that after invading Iraq the ball was fumbled badly.  I do contest that we had Democracy in Iraq as a goal, reason or justification for invading Iraq.  Stating so is simply rewriting history with 20/20 hindsight to fit a narrative.  That faulty analysis condemns the reader to learn inaccurate or wrong lessons from history. 

 

The decision to foster a democracy in Iraq was made after we invaded and after it became obvious that the Iraqis were not going to rule themselves.  At first we tried a WWII approach with our military in charge but we never resourced Iraq like we did Germany.  The US Army was overwhelmed with just maintaining order let alone running courts, providing power or clean water (Shinseki’s 400k troops prediction was prophetic).  Into the vacuum stepped the US Gov’t and all the pain that followed.

 

Just an aside, I’m not comfortable with saying anybody can’t handle Democracy.  Saying so kind of puts one at odds with the Declaration of Independence.  Is life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness not for uneducated or non western peoples?  It’s a slippery slope when one argues that a certain people can’t handle democracy.  Now of course you haven’t said that but many that ascribe to the narrative and rewritten history of OIF do. 

 

Just to be clear I think Democracy is for everyone though it doesn’t have to look like ours.  Ancient Greek Democracy had many differences with how we practice it.  Even the Afghan Jirga qualifies as Democracy in my book.   

 

 

@ArcticWarrior

 

theAtrium (banned)
theAtrium (banned) 5pts

 @majrod " If we had a plan to install Democracy in Iraq we would have had a plan.  We did not.  Regime change and building democracy are two different things. "

 

I totally agree with you that there was no plan to install Democracy in Iraq--that was the whole problem. My bad on "democracy building", which rhymes with nation building, which was not our initial intent. Let's call it promotion of democracy, but nonetheless regime change was miraculously to be followed by democracy:

 

"Our mission in Iraq and Afghanistan is clear to our service members -- and clear to our enemies. Our men and women are fighting to secure the freedom of more than 50 million people who recently lived under two of the cruelest dictatorships on earth. Our men and women are fighting to help democracy and peace and justice rise in a troubled and violent region. Our men and women are fighting terrorist enemies thousands of miles away in the heart and center of their power, so that we do not face those enemies in the heart of America." ~ Pres. Bush, 2003-11-11

 

The lynchpin in the rationale behind regime change was the assumption that an Iraqi middle class could rebuild and administer a new democracy which would come out from the ashes of the invasion. Looking back Bob Baer's plan to assassinate Saddam in 1995-96, was a lot more promising since his plan left the Iraqi military intact.

 

Pres. Bush, Sec. Rice, Powell, Cheney, Rumsfeld have all written about this, their legacy is the flipside of the Kirkpatrick doctrine--do away with an autocrat and somehow democracy will flourish.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onHqAmC5yQ0

 

 

 @ArcticWarrior

theAtrium (banned)
theAtrium (banned) 5pts

 @dmalert " LOL didn't see it.  Keep in mind when you been attending a Madrassah since age 5 you might be a bit far gone to just pick up a job and live the good life given the chance. "

 

You're the only one in SOFREP that hasn't seen "Act of Valor"? That's unsat, bro.

 

As for madrassah, it depends where those madrassahs are, if the societies where these schools are located, are equally extremist then I'd agree with you. If you have an extremist madrassah located within a culture that historically enjoys its songs and dances and parties, those rigid teachings usually go in one ear and out the other. Cultural nuance here is very important, as is the recognition of an irredentist struggle over what the Salafis are selling, like the Tuaregs vs. AQIM. Here's a catchy tune you can dance to in the shower while you ponder this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDVbkUmYIVE

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_the_Philippines

 

A little trivia for when you do watch "AofV" : http://www.worldwidedojo.com/entertainment/entertainment-whos-who/sonny-sison/

 

 

 

 @ArcticWarrior " so in theory while I love the women of the Green Party Im more of a Bull Moose Party kinda guy... "

 

Hippie women, don't know what the appeal is for you, I myself am more into Amy Mann/Lisa Loeb types: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urMq9XYzqC4 and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ka9mCmx9Jhs . But the Bull Moose party I can definitely dig:

 

" The conscience of the people, in a time of grave national problems, has called into being a new party, born of the nation’s sense of justice. We of the Progressive party here dedicate ourselves to the fulfillment of the duty laid upon us by our fathers to maintain the government of the people, by the people and for the people whose foundations they laid.

 

We hold with Thomas Jefferson and Abraham Lincoln that the people are the masters of their Constitution, to fulfill its purposes and to safeguard it from those who, by perversion of its intent, would convert it into an instrument of injustice. In accordance with the needs of each generation the people must use their sovereign powers to establish and maintain equal opportunity and industrial justice, to secure which this Government was founded and without which no republic can endure.

 

This country belongs to the people who inhabit it. Its resources, its business, its institutions and its laws should be utilized, maintained or altered in whatever manner will best promote the general interest.

 

It is time to set the public welfare in the first place. "

http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/index.asp?document=607

 

 

 

hjw1dr
hjw1dr 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @dmalert  Yes!  I originally thought it was the 2 parties... but special interests and polis... yeah that could work. Thought I still think those guys are the ones beating the shit out of each other.  :)

 

 

@oldSquid  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer  

dmalert
dmalert 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 7 Like

 @hjw1dr  @oldSquid  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer Agreed, but it's the politicians and special interests driving and the rest of us are handcuffed in the trunk.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @Recon6  @ArcticWarrior  @dmalert  @oldSquid  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer

 The Benning School for Wayward Boys, with some classes elsewhere

 

Hofstra Univ and UAA (Alaska)

dmalert
dmalert 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @majrod  @hjw1dr  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer Perhaps.  Not advocating giving Hamas or Hezbollah chemical weapons. 

hjw1dr
hjw1dr 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @dmalert  wrote: "Unfortunately I agree with you.  It's going to be very bad.  Nothing written in stone, but the closer one gets to an event the more inevitable it is.  We don't have leadership that can handle what's coming."  

 

Yes. I feel that the US is like a group of people stuck in a van going 65 mph, headed for a concrete wall. We can see what's coming. Some people are closing their eyes, praying the concrete wall is just a mirage. Other's are busy pounding the shit out of each other in order to get at the wheel. But no-one has the guts to hit the breaks.  Why?  Cause some idiot mentioned someone might get a bump on the head if they stop too fast. 

 

 

@oldSquid  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer 

majrod
majrod 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @dmalert I would not rely on Hezbollah "discipline" to ensure they wouldn't use chem.

 

Even if they were, Chem would just make Hezbollah more bold in other ways because they would have a sense of security in responding to Israeli retaliation.

 

 

 

 @hjw1dr  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer

 

Recon6
Recon6 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

@ArcticWarrior @dmalert @oldSquid @LauraKinCA @RedWanderer Yeah AW, and you're a fuckin Grunt, so I'm gonna axe, "where did you go to school"??...6

TKW406
TKW406 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

 @oldSquid  I've always had a problem with non-property owners having a vote on higher property taxes or new levies.  Just doesn't seem right.

 

@majrod  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer 

oldSquid
oldSquid 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @dmalert  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer

 I agree - didn't mean to lump ALL of us into it. I am a product of those times and don't think too highly of a bunch of my generation for not wising up as they got older... I did and I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer...

What was it Churchill said about if you're under 30 and are not liberal you do not have a heart, if you're over 30 and not conservative you do not have a brain - or some such?

oldSquid
oldSquid 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @majrod  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer

 Yes, Sir Majrod. Thought that was a given... can't put any more skin in the game than that. Also so think the families of those vets qualify as well - homefront can be tough as well.

dmalert
dmalert 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @majrod  @hjw1dr  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer Never mentioned Hezbollah or Hamas as per chem weapons - my concern was jihadis.  I think Hezbollah is pretty disciplined and would not launch chem weapons unless someone was wiping them out.

 

Agreed a lot of stuff happened at a high level.

oldSquid
oldSquid 5pts

 @LauraKinCA  @CK5150  @majrod  @ArcticWarrior  @hjw1dr  @RedWanderer  @ked

 I think the first couple days are 'industry restricted', and the weekend is open to the public - I think I saw that on the website.Believe a couple hunting buddies went about 5-6 years ago (they can afford trips like that on spur of the moment...). Neither one was a dealer or had firearms industry backgrounds.

dmalert
dmalert 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @oldSquid  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer I would say certain people are blowing it.  Just cause some people my age are fully complicit - I refuse to be lumped in with them.

dmalert
dmalert 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @oldSquid  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer Unfortunately I agree with you.  It's going to be very bad.  Nothing written in stone, but the closer one gets to an event the more inevitable it is.  We don't have leadership that can handle what's coming.

dmalert
dmalert 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @oldSquid  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer We're going to have to be the generation that fixes it.

majrod
majrod 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @oldSquid add vets to your list especially those that spent decades in uniform or those that have lost a limb etc...

 

 @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer

 

majrod
majrod 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @TheAtrium "democracy building was also famously touted by the right (that's why we went  into Iraq, the WMDs was elaborate justification)."

 

Just to be clear, putting Democracy into Iraq was not the reason we went into Iraq though it became the reason we stayed.  If we had a plan to install Democracy in Iraq we would have had a plan.  We did not.  Regime change and building democracy are two different things.

 

It's important to cite history as it was as opposed tohow we want it to be to support a narrative.  It's a pet peeve of mine just like when folks cite the "two wars" canard like WWII was actually two wars.

 

  @ArcticWarrior  @dmalert

 

dickftr
dickftr 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @oldSquid  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer That is the exact same way I feel OldSquid!!!

majrod
majrod 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

@dmalert  Yes Syria’s chem program was for deterrence.  I never said different.  What it can be used for or it’s role in the future are entirely unknown.  Remember you said VX in Hezbollah’s hands was not good for Israel.

 

Israel cannot rely on always “swatting” nuke programs for its security.  Pakistan is a source of nukes.  Iran may be as well in the future.

 

Morsi?  Yes, our problem and not only for abandoning Mubarek but for promoting the MB as a solution and “secular” organization which wasn’t the do-gooders ignorance.  That happened at a much higher and official level. 

@hjw1dr@ArcticWarrior@LauraKinCA@RedWanderer

 

oldSquid
oldSquid 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

   @dmalert  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer

 I pray it can be fixed in one generation, but it's looking more and more like we are the ones that are gonna blow  it. I do hold hope out though. I listen to my nephew and some of his friends and am pleasantly surprised that they seem to have seen beyond the bs they've been shovelfed in school and have a grasp on reality and what our Country was and stood for - and needs to be again. 

oldSquid
oldSquid 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @dmalert  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer

 I agree dm. I can see a replay of the Weimar Republic after WWi where it takes a wheelbarrow full of money to buy a loaf of bread....

I'm afarid there's gonna be awhole lot of darkness and hurt and a huge pile of ashes before we're reborn out of those ashes. Hope it ain't so, but that's what I fear.

TKW406
TKW406 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @ArcticWarrior 

Founding Fathers = Constitution & Declaration of Independence

Today's Congress = Can't even balance the countries checkbook

 

 @dmalert  @oldSquid  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer 

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

 @dmalert  @oldSquid  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer

 The Federalist Papers are a tedious but good read no doubt. You can tell who wrote what just by the style of writing. The private letters these guys wrote also have some compelling stuff, as all was not what it seemed in public. We were blessed to have a group that large, with that much foresight to draft the papers that shaped us. Right group, right place, right time. America was dealt a great hand by fate and made the most of that, we cant be the generation that blows it.

dmalert
dmalert 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 7 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @oldSquid  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer I been rereading the Federalist Papers.  The richness of our country never ceases to amaze me.  As for Congress now - it's simply a reflection of how tawdry our society has become.

dmalert
dmalert 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 6 Like

 @oldSquid  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer OS - I think what happens is the bond market blows up and our currency gets hammered and then enter bad inflation.  As it stands now bond auctions are already failing at current rates, which is why the Fed is buying 75% of Treasury debt.  Spending needs to be cut across the board and as you say current pols don't have the fortitude or will to do what' necessary so the coming pain will force it via a new generation of pols. 

 

Almost like the phoenix.  We will have to be reborn out of the ashes. 

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 6 Like

 @dmalert  @oldSquid  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer

  Madison,Hamilton, Jay, Washington, Adams and Franklin were Federalists who had varying thoughts on what the Constitution meant, hence the Federalist Papers, with Madison, Jay and Hamilton often contradicting one another but sticking to a central theme.

Jefferson was out of the show being in France but wanted the BoR.

Samuel Adams and Patrick Henry were staunch Anti-Fed.

Notice the top group the Feds were more educated, owned more land and were in a different social class then the Anti-Feds thus there want for a BoR.

The whole point of the Federalist Papers was to argue for the Constitutiion and a balanced Central Govt - and John Jay wrote some brilliant stuff pointing out that liberty and rights needed to be balanced by a central govt, Madison pointed out that the govt was already limited by vesting of the Constitution, in the end the Feds outnumbered the anti -Feds and with New Hampshire as the 9th and necessary State,  ratification was on its way, the hold out States fell in line and led to work on the BoR in '91.

By returning the power to the states and the people, Madison hoped to tamp down fears that the federal government would be too powerful and oppressive and it worked. The Bill of Rights, which went into effect on December 15, 1791, assured liberties for all free white men.

In private letters Madison often contradicted himself from his public beliefs, but he knew how to negotiate and be a Statesman and they got the deal done, something sorely lacking in our present Congress.

 

oldSquid
oldSquid 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

 @dmalert  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer

 dm, BANG! Hammer meets nail! There is going to be a lot of pain. We've kicked the can down the road as far as it can go and have hit that 1000 foot drop at the end. Spending on 'entitlement' programs and handing out money to foreign powers to 'be our friend' is going to have to stop or be cut back severely. We cannot support it anymore and the current batch of politicians don't have the balls to suck it up and make tough decisions to get us turned around.

I think Bloomberg's problem is the same problem Hilter had - megalomania. And the fact that "he knows better than the low lifes that are not as 'good' as he is".

dmalert
dmalert 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @oldSquid  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer I lot of it is just arrogance and unbridled ego - social engineering if you will and you're seeing in now with Bloomberg.  The guy makes a ton of money so ego wise how much more business success can he have?  He's already worth over 20 billion.  So politics is the next logical step ego wise.

 

So it's not sufficient enough to just be mayor.  His ego is so out of control he's going to improve humanity.  No soda or trans fat.  No guns and it goes on and on.  How about doing your job Mr. Mayor?  Lots of unemployed people in NYC.  Why not put your energy there?

 

All gets back to balance of power - and why you need it to keep power from consuming someone's soul. 

dmalert
dmalert 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

 @oldSquid  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer The thing with very big govt. is that it doesn't work in the long run economically and we are bumping into this right now.  So I have a lot of faith in the US and our Constitution.  I think we will weather the storm.  We are going to have to take a lot of pain, but we need this pain to put things in perspective. 

 

Self indulgent behavior is not good for the human soul.  It's a very insidious thing to keep an able bodied person on the dole their entire life solely for political power.

oldSquid
oldSquid 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @dmalert  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer

 That's it. I knew TR started it but couldn't remember the name of the Party - brain fart or senior moment...

dmalert
dmalert 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @oldSquid  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer Yup - Bull Moose was original progressive party,

oldSquid
oldSquid 5pts

 @dmalert  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer

 agreed.

dmalert
dmalert 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @oldSquid  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer BoR had to be put in or the anti Federalists wouldn't have ratified it. And I would say Madison was much more of a Federalist than not.

oldSquid
oldSquid 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @dmalert  @hjw1dr  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer

 yep. Another symptom of political correctness and the dumbing down of our Culture/society....

dmalert
dmalert 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @oldSquid  @hjw1dr  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer Parents used not delegate such responsibility.  It has been pushed over the years - it takes a village right.

oldSquid
oldSquid 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer

 I believe it by purpose. It started with the 'progressive' movement - if I remember right Teddy R. was an instigator, but it got a toehold with Wilson, I believe and then took off with FDR. The progressives wanted to change the Constitution because it goes against their stated purpose - government (benevolent in their eyes) is the end all - be all for the betterment of mankind. My history is a bit fuzzy here, but that's the gist of what I remember

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 7 Like

 @oldSquid  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer

 The dicey thing is the Constitution was considered flawed by its creators at the outset, which is why you have ammendments, the first 10 being put forth by Madison in the 1st Congress as the BoR ( think about it the BoR only applied to white men, not blacks, not women, not natives) but they did there best to put up a framework, flawed but better then anything else, and it has served us well.

How and when we got to "Begging hands and bleeding hearts" I cant really nail down, maybe the 30s???? But I agree with you the present sysytem is out of kilter. Politicians as elected are only in it for themselves and only concentrate on getting re-elected. The Constitution is dying a slow death, whether by ignorance, purpose, or apathy...

oldSquid
oldSquid 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @hjw1dr  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer

 BUT. Too many parents abdicate their parental responsibility to the school system - expecting the system to raise their kids while they pursue their 'goals' to get ahead. The public school system has become a surrogate parent - and the N.E.A./Teacher's union is more than happy to indocrinate your kids into the socialist program

dmalert
dmalert 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @oldSquid  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer I see your point here, but good luck with that one.  System will have to collapse first. 

oldSquid
oldSquid 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

 @majrod  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer

 Didn't the House just read the whole thing 'out loud' from the floor before thay began their new session? And they STILL don't understand it?!?!?!?

WTF!

oldSquid
oldSquid 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer

 What I would like to see, is the original intent of the Constitution being returned to. That is, the only citizens allowed to vote under the original intent were 'landowners' - I'd stretchit a bit to say you have to have a 'vested interest' in the Country - skin in the game. Land owner, business owner, taxpayer. If you are a 'taker' - long time welfare recipient, chronically unemployed, moocher etc... no vote for you. The problem we have is that almost 50% of the Country are 'takers' that do not contribute -expecting the productive part of society to carry their weight. They should not be allowed to vote, because their interest is in gaining more 'goodies' from politicians that pander to them. THAT's my fantasy

dmalert
dmalert 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @TheAtrium As per terrorism being more an act of the middle class...Ustinov would disagree with you...

 

"Terrorism is the war of the poor, and war is the terrorism of the rich"

dmalert
dmalert 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @TheAtrium Another great quote!

dmalert
dmalert 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @TheAtrium LOL didn't see it.  Keep in mind when you been attending a Madrassah since age 5 you might be a bit far gone to just pick up a job and live the good life given the chance.

dmalert
dmalert 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @TheAtrium Great quote!  As for terrorism, it's not the middle class fighting us in Afghan or strapping explosives to their chests.  Generally the poor, who if they had enough wouldn't really be into this.  So without the poor to manipulate middle class extremists would still exist, but there would be a lot less bite to their bark.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

 @TheAtrium  @dmalert

 My parents dragged me to all the big places in the ethos of the War of Independence - Saratoga, Lex-Conc, Breeds/Bunker Hill, Continental Congress, ( for Christmas other kids got spider man jammies I got Alexander Hamiltons Bio, all 700 pages worth ) not to mention all those school trips to Sagamore Hill so in theory while I love the women of the Green Party Im more of a Bull Moose Party kinda guy....

 

 “Who are the militia? Are they not  ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man  against his own bosom. Congress have no power to disarm the militia.  Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the  birthright of an American… The unlimited power of the sword is not in  the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust  in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people.” Tenche Coxe,  The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788.

dmalert
dmalert 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @TheAtrium  @ArcticWarrior Not a green party guy.  Moderate Libertarian I suppose. 

theAtrium (banned)
theAtrium (banned) 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @dmalert 

 

You and I are Libertarians then, unless you're from the Green party like @ArcticWarrior .

 

 

dmalert
dmalert 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @TheAtrium  @ArcticWarrior Atrium - couldn't agree with you more on the right and nation building and of course Iraq was our creation to boot.  I don't see strong FP from either party in the US - I want a third moderate party to provide the most American of things - competition.

theAtrium (banned)
theAtrium (banned) 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

That was my issue with "Act of Valor" and much of these how terrorism springs theories. Those 16 terrorists crossing the border in the story (assuming here that they were out of poverty) realistically would've ditched their bomb vests and hooked up with relatives in country and have gotten two jobs.

 

 

theAtrium (banned)
theAtrium (banned) 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @dmalert 

 

" And jihadism is strongly tied into lousy economics.  Poverty provides fodder for extremists and if you wish to deal with terrorism (the cause not the symptom) then you have to address poverty. "

 

I don't buy this wholesale. Yeah, poverty sucks and should be curtailed, but terrorism is more the act of the middle class than it is by those in the lower. Poverty provides pawns, but if you list those we've killed or those that need to be killed in GWOT, they're for the most part educated middle class types. Remember this quote? Your boy Orwell couldn't have said it better:

 

"Throughout recorded time, and probably since the end of the Neolithic Age, there have been three kinds of people in the world, the High, the Middle, and the Low. They have been subdivided in many ways, they have borne countless different names, and their relative numbers, as well as their attitude towards one another, have varied from age to age: but the essential structure of society has never altered.

 

Even after enormous upheavals and seemingly irrevocable changes, the same pattern has always reasserted itself, just as a gyroscope will always return to equilibrium, however far it is pushed one way or the other. The aims of these three groups are entirely irreconcilable. The aim of the High is to remain where they are. The aim of the Middle is to change places with the High.

 

The aim of the Low, when they have an aim -- for it is an abiding characteristic of the Low that they are too much crushed by drudgery to be more than intermittently conscious of anything outside their daily lives -- is to abolish all distinctions and create a society in which all men shall be equal. "

 

theAtrium (banned)
theAtrium (banned) 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  And Latakia is Iran's, not only their official Navy recently, but seedy Iranian cargo vessels since the 80s: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaWrCQMSlaE .

 

" Sometimes change isnt in our best interests, even in a Iranian/Russian vassal state. "

 

Before the Arab Spring Bashar al-Assad was very popular in Syria. Just solely on that criteria (as good as it gets to democracy and order over there) should've been the basis of our support for the Assad regime.

 

Mubarak was going out soon, that guy was just widely hated, and think he was ready to put his son up for this reason. I think the bulk of the calculus with Mubarak was that their military was practically ours, hence a more decisive role in his ousting.

 

But don't forget, @dmalert , democracy building was also famously touted by the right (that's why we went into Iraq, the WMDs was elaborate justification). There are two different underlying views on democracy over there from our perspective, that the masses is easier to control than a cult of personality and that the masses if given the choice will decide with wisdom and for their own interest, without taking into account the severity of this Salafi tide.

 

 

 

 

 

 

dmalert
dmalert 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @majrod  @hjw1dr  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer And jihadism is strongly tied into lousy economics.  Poverty provides fodder for extremists and if you wish to deal with terrorism (the cause not the symptom) then you have to address poverty.  Problem is addressing the symptom is more profitable, well at least in the short run.  Long term not addressing the cause will exact a very high price globally.  Again we are short-term thinkers.

 

How many terrorists do you think quantitative easing created? You know - food inflation.  How many terrorists do you think the Clinton/Cuomo/Frank everyone's gotta have a home plan created?  A fucking lot.  Clinton is probably the worst president we've had and history will show this.

 

This is why being president or even a member of Congress are such important positions not to be taken lightly.  What occurs in the US reverberates globally.

dmalert
dmalert 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @majrod  @hjw1dr  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer The whole purpose of their chemical weapons program was deterrence to counter Israel.  Any efforts towards nukes would have been the same.  As AW mentioned recently Pak is the real problem state ala nukes, but I agree proliferation is not a good thing.  Israel would have regularly culled any Syrian efforts towards nukes anyway like in 07.

 

As for Morsi - our fault as well for not supporting Mubarak.  Then we had all these dumbed down do-gooders in the US screaming how great this "grass roots" Arab Spring was and how great it was democracy was coming to Egypt and the region. Like that little pawn at Google.  Since when are private citizens supposed to be taking over US FP?  Clearly state/admin liked what the guy was doing or we even working with him.

 

And what does Egypt get after this dog and pony show - another pharaoh.  The greatest irony on the whole bit was the Arab Spring was triggered by our own financial excesses rather than some epiphany the masses had as we enter in the age of Aquarius.  And this is precisely where economics can't be separated from geopolitics.  Great job Bernanke!

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 6 Like

 @hjw1dr  @dmalert  @majrod  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer

 Tartus is the Med home of the Russian Navies Black Sea fleet, its important to them to hold Tartus for its strategic value, its economic value-they dumped a bunch of cash to make it modern and Syria was a good paying customer over the years, lots of Russian citizens working in Syria and Russia is slowly seeing all its old school vassal states going away, to them it has to be unsettling. Think how we would react if say Turkey turned to the Russians. Im certain the Russian Govt has a plan in place to blame us. But Assad has said from day one, he isnt going out the way the others have gone out, he is willing to push the envelope. And when he is gone, what do you get? Jihaddis who are more fanatical about Israel and causing havoc in Iraq, Lebabnon etc? Just like Egypt - we sold Hosni out and now what do we have? Sometimes change isnt in our best interests, even in a Iranian/Russian vassal state.

majrod
majrod 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @dmalertAssad was biding his time.  He never qwent too far because he couldn't win.  He tried to get nukes.  I don't doubt he would have tried againand Iran as a friend makes things much simpler.  Toss a Morsi Egypt into the mix and Syria can not be emphatically be considered a stibilizing force.

 

Agree on economics but rising jihadism also comes into play. 

 

  @hjw1dr  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer

 

dmalert
dmalert 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @majrod  @hjw1dr  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer Agreed, but never would go too far over the line even if the proxies annoyed Israel.  So if you get Russian/Iran - no change so nothing accomplished.  As for Jihadi, pro Turk or other - time will tell.

 

The nuke specter exists outside of Syria and with or without Assad.  So we have uncertainty in the entire region and I think with bad economic the whole thing's going to catch on fire.  And I think these bad economics are coming.

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @dmalert    @majrod    

 OK, night you two. Catch you tomorrow.

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @dmalert  @hjw1dr  @majrod  @ArcticWarrior  @RedWanderer

 Agreed

dmalert
dmalert 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @LauraKinCA  @hjw1dr  @majrod  @ArcticWarrior  @RedWanderer economy

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @dmalert 

OK, I'll bite. Who or what is damaged?

 

 @hjw1dr  @majrod  @ArcticWarrior  @RedWanderer

 

majrod
majrod 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @dmalert I don't necessarily buy into Assad being a stable force in the region.  He was Iran's patsy and all too willing to upset things in Lebanon to threaten Israel or distract Sryrians.

 

Syria will go one of three directions, a pro Iran/Russia regime - the status quo without Assad, a pro jihadi tilt or and maybe the most unlikely something interested in Syria maybe with a Turkish lean.

 

VX in terrorist hands is bad for everyone.  There's no guarantee that an Assad Syria heavily indebted to Iran would have been good for anyone.  Instead of loose VX there's a future nuclear spectre.

 

 @hjw1dr  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer

 

dmalert
dmalert 5pts

 @LauraKinCA  @hjw1dr  @majrod  @ArcticWarrior  @RedWanderer Damage is done

dmalert
dmalert 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @CK5150  @LauraKinCA  @majrod  @ArcticWarrior  @hjw1dr  @RedWanderer  @ked Emperor is going to be bogged down in economic problems in the near future.  Any gains now on guns will be pyrrhic in nature

CK5150
CK5150 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @dmalert  @hjw1dr  @LauraKinCA  @majrod 

What's the difference between a mosquito and a lawyer?

One is a blood-sucking parasite, the other is an insect.

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @hjw1dr  @dmalert  @CK5150  @majrod

 Nite HJ. I should probably hit the hay too.

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @dmalert  @majrod  @ArcticWarrior  @hjw1dr  @RedWanderer

 Just a little storm cloud in my mind. I try to stay away from CT, but sometimes...

hjw1dr
hjw1dr 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @dmalert  @CK5150  @LauraKinCA  @majrod 

 

Hate to say this... but past midnight! turning into a pumkin. Hope you all have a great night! 

Figure out the world's problems tonight... and tomorrow we can implement the solutions! :) 

dmalert
dmalert 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @LauraKinCA  @majrod  @ArcticWarrior  @hjw1dr  @RedWanderer Not big into CT, but this does seem to be the end result.

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @dmalert  @hjw1dr  @majrod  @ArcticWarrior  @RedWanderer

 Agreed, which is why I feel like we are tinkering with things that will have a cascade effect that we will not be happy with the outcome.

dmalert
dmalert 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

 @LauraKinCA  @hjw1dr  @majrod  @ArcticWarrior  @RedWanderer We'll see what happens.  We've made some very unwise moves over the past 10 years and continue to do so.  Keep in mind geopolitics and economics go hand in hand so one can never look at things in a isolated fashion.

CK5150
CK5150 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @LauraKinCA  @majrod  @ArcticWarrior  @hjw1dr  @RedWanderer  @ked That's what I thought, too.  It would just depress me, all the cool stuff I can't buy.  We'll have to see what the Emperor tries to do tomorrow to our Constitution.  Guessing he'll try a lot of stuff not within his legal scope of powers, but that's never stopped him before. 

hjw1dr
hjw1dr 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @dmalert  @CK5150  @LauraKinCA  @majrod DM, lol

dmalert
dmalert 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @CK5150  @hjw1dr  @LauraKinCA  @majrod I don't even think a bath of WP could get a lawyer's slime off of you.

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @dmalert  

... lead to more instability.... sometimes I feel like that is the behind the scenes goal.

 

@majrod  @ArcticWarrior  @hjw1dr  @RedWanderer

 

dmalert
dmalert 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @majrod  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @hjw1dr  @RedWanderer Haven't read Friedman's Secret Wars.  But I strongly disagree with you on Stratfor.  I knew what was going on and they weren't even close.  My take - they wrote positions that benefited primes not US FP or stability in AF/Pak, Iraq, GCC, etc.

 

In fact a lot of what they wrote if followed would lead to more instability. 

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @CK5150 

When I looked up SHOT on line it indicated it wasn't open to the public. Someone said it was, but I don't think so. You have to have dealer creds or some other standing.

 

 @majrod  @ArcticWarrior  @hjw1dr  @RedWanderer  @ked

 

CK5150
CK5150 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @LauraKinCA  @majrod  @ArcticWarrior  @hjw1dr  @RedWanderer  @ked Not sure about TV.  It's all there on youtube.   I always thought you had to be in the firearms industry to get credentials for SHOT.  My bro in law is a dealer (guns not drugs) but he moved back to OK and we never went.  

hjw1dr
hjw1dr 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @LauraKinCA  @majrod  @dmalert  @ArcticWarrior  @RedWanderer 

Not to mention Russia's interests in Syria. 

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @hjw1dr 

I can see that, especially based on DM's comment above. Our sticky fingers in all these ME conflicts will end up with a major affect on our relations with Iran.

 

 @majrod  @dmalert  @ArcticWarrior  @RedWanderer

 

CK5150
CK5150 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @hjw1dr  @LauraKinCA  @majrod The Mrs. and I are marathoning "Suits" on USA before the new season starts.  Watching those slimy lawyers makes me feel better about myself while at the same time wish I had gone to law school. 

dmalert
dmalert 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @LauraKinCA  @majrod  @hjw1dr  @ArcticWarrior  @RedWanderer Playing big time and this is unwise.

hjw1dr
hjw1dr 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @LauraKinCA  

I was referring the proxy war tendencies that the US get engaged in when playing in front of a critical audience.  

 

 

@majrod  @dmalert  @ArcticWarrior  @RedWanderer  

majrod
majrod 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @dmalert  I wouldn't hold STRATFOR responsible for analysts trying to ingratiate themselves with you.  In general I like STRATFORs perspective recognizing they focus a lot on geopolitics which is a strong model to predict a nation's general tendencies.

 

Have you read Friedman's Americas Secret Wars? 

 

@ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @hjw1dr  @RedWanderer

 

dmalert
dmalert 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @majrod  @hjw1dr  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer I'm quite certain we are playing and it's not a question of right or wrong guys.  There are too many variables so even if you pick the right guys this doesn't guarantee the desired outcome.  If it goes well it stabilizes and Iran's more isolated.  Goes wrong (way better chance)  bad guys get weapons or control.  Things can light up with Israel, Turkey, etc.   Imagine a radical group getting their hands on some VX and launching a scud at Tel Aviv.

 

Not saying this happens, but with Assad you had a known stable entity.  With all the stuff going on now would not have been the time that I would have picked to put another country in the region in play.  It's very risky.

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts

 @hjw1dr  

We were kind of talking about similar the other day in that it seems like we can't get out of the cold war mindset about opponents. So I have a bit of a hard time relating Iran to that superpower standoff.

 

@majrod  @dmalert  @ArcticWarrior  @RedWanderer

 

hjw1dr
hjw1dr 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @majrod  It's like the cold war but with Iran opposite-- seems to me. 

 

 

@dmalert  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer  

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @majrod 

Do you really think we aren't playing? It seems like we can't keep our fingers out of anything that has been evolving in the last 5 years or so.

 

 @dmalert  @hjw1dr  @ArcticWarrior  @RedWanderer

 

majrod
majrod 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @dmalert I don't think we're gambling at all.  We either aren't playing or betting on the wrong guys.

 

 @hjw1dr  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer

 

dmalert
dmalert 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @majrod  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @hjw1dr  @RedWanderer I read all sorts of pubs.  And FP does have good articles.  I used to read the AF/PAK portion a lot.  So I was overly hasty in my comments.  What I really disliked was Stratfor.  For some reason contacts would always e-mail me their analyses, which were awful.

hjw1dr
hjw1dr 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @LauraKinCA  @dmalert  @majrod  @ArcticWarrior  @RedWanderer Well, Assad has been giving multiple speeches from different locations (from what I gather). A University bombed today in Allepo-- with 80 students dead.  

More cannon fodder.

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @hjw1dr  @dmalert  @majrod  @ArcticWarrior  @RedWanderer

 The terror tactic is part of my point.

dmalert
dmalert 5pts

 @majrod  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer I saw this today - don't remember if it was FP or not.

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @dmalert  @hjw1dr  @majrod  @ArcticWarrior  @RedWanderer

 The unknown groups to come to power if Assad goes are a big worry.

majrod
majrod 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

 @dmalert Did you read in FP where Assad is living on a Russian warship because he's lost confidence in his own folks and security?

 

 @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer

 

dmalert
dmalert 5pts

 @majrod  @hjw1dr  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer Sure and if you drop a few JDAMs into some area and half your family is killed and then others have limbs blown off, faces, paralyzed, etc.  What would you say this does to someone's state of mind that survives.

hjw1dr
hjw1dr 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @LauraKinCA   Chem weapons are a tactic of terror. IMO

 

@dmalert  @majrod  @ArcticWarrior  @RedWanderer 

dmalert
dmalert 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @hjw1dr  @majrod  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer I'm sure Assad doesn't see it that way.  My thought though is we shouldn't be willy nilly trying to collapse Syria.  Because when Assad is gone - what do you get?  Lot's of chemical weapons that need securing and as for who runs the country, it's heavily fragmented rule, etc.  Given all the crap going on geo-politically and economically we really didn't need to turn Egypt, Syria and Libya upside down.

 

I think we've gambled heavily here the results of which we are yet to see.

majrod
majrod 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @dmalert Chem weapons have a psychological effect.

 

 @hjw1dr  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer

 

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @dmalert  @hjw1dr  @majrod  @ArcticWarrior  @RedWanderer

 I don't get the sense that there is the same stigma in the ME for using chem weapons. We have that I think as a major holdover from WWI and WWII and the last of the wars of that type or maybe I should say with the participants.

hjw1dr
hjw1dr 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @dmalert  @majrod  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer  I can't find the link... dam. 

It was in an article in Pravda- on Syria (Assad speech?)  I was browsing and stumbled on it. Oh, well...  sorry. 

majrod
majrod 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

 @dmalert  Absolutely agree but on occasion they do stumble across a diamond (e.g. the Syria chem use coukld become a big story tomorrow).  So they are a source of good info.  Heck, I read al jazeera on occasion.

 

Then there's the positive of exposing youir views to those that are diametrically opposed to it.  Iron sharpens iron though I admit the other side is really more akin to cardboard most of the time. 

 

Finally one still has to listen and expose yourself to opppsing views if you want to be honestly informed.  If I avoided FP because 80-90% of their positions came from the left I'd be as guilty as they are of being myopic.

 

 

  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @hjw1dr  @RedWanderer

 

hjw1dr
hjw1dr 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @dmalert  @majrod  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer 

Oh, not saying it's not useful to kill lots of people when your regime is running on terror. And if foreign powers are interfering ...

 

I read in Pravda 3 days ago that the Russian government was laying the ground work for anticipating  a severe catastrophe in Syria. My impression was that they were setting the state to blame the US for involvement that would escalate. I'll search for the article. Was over the weekend...

 

dmalert
dmalert 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @hjw1dr  @majrod  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer There's no reason not to use the chemical weapons.  The whole point of them is a deterrent against foreign malfeasance, which is occurring.  Furthermore, killing a lot of people is killing a lot of people. 

 

We've killed an awful lot of civilians in Iraq.  Imagine a bomb hitting a target.  Innocents get killed immediately and then a bunch of others get hit by shrapnel and die from their wounds.  Say it takes an hour to several metal in your spine, eyes, legs, etc.  You die very painfully.  Maybe you die from internal bleeding off of a blast.  Die painfully.  So not getting on a high horse and not advocating chemical weapons just think our hands aren't all that clean.

hjw1dr
hjw1dr 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @dmalert  @majrod  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer  I was just browsing FP... not sure what to think. The syrian chemical weapon Agent 15 used... interesting. 

dmalert
dmalert 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @majrod  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @hjw1dr  @RedWanderer Maj - FP is so so.  A lot of what they wrote about wasn't close to what was happening on the ground.  Lots of dummies, but they are also trying to shape opinion based on what they right.  Don't care for these types.

hjw1dr
hjw1dr 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @dmalert  @ArcticWarrior  @RedWanderer  I would vote for the neville question being the final on the test. If it's answered correctly,,, then maybe someone went to school and took notes? : )

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

 @dmalert  @ArcticWarrior  @RedWanderer

 Well, as the idiots we are talking about think history happened last week, any questions about Neville would be way over their heads. But I still think it goes to gullibility and listening to what opponents say instead of paying attention to their actions.

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts

 @CK5150  @majrod  @ArcticWarrior  @hjw1dr  @RedWanderer  @ked

 CK, does SHR still air on tv or can you only find it on youtube?

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts

 @hjw1dr  @CK5150  @majrod

 Tango is at SHOT, so he isn't around. PH2 has limited time with his work schedule, HF same deal, not sure about Storm. Brad is also overworked. Shag is MIA for a couple days.

dmalert
dmalert 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @RedWanderer No the Neville bit is fair game.  Just unclear how you would apply it.

hjw1dr
hjw1dr 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @CK5150  @LauraKinCA  @majrod 

Anyway, where is everybody? are they all at SHOT?  Sure seems quiet... but maybe I've just been around at the wrong time?

hjw1dr
hjw1dr 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @CK5150  @LauraKinCA  @majrod  

Sad, isn't it. SHR is some of the best entertainment learning in the past 30 years.... stuff stick with you too. Nice ditties. :)

CK5150
CK5150 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @LauraKinCA  @majrod  @ArcticWarrior  @hjw1dr  @RedWanderer That's fu@ked up!  Even my kids know "conjunction junction" "I'm just a bill" 'interjection" and lots of others.  Maybe those kids were too busy polishing their "participation" trophies to watch schoolhouse rock. 

hjw1dr
hjw1dr 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @LauraKinCA  @majrod  The trolls are usually one note songs anyway. no real thinking going on... just talking points shrouded in with white noise of big words. :)

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @majrod

Thanks, I will check a few out. I don't have any plans on posting comments there. As you say, so many other sites are un-moderated and I don't care to engage the trolls.

majrod
majrod 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

   @LauraKinCA    The folks that matter know.  The ones who don't and worth a crap will educate themselves.  Those that don't know and don't find out are making your point as everyone else chuckles at them.

 

If you check my profile you can find some of the better discussions based on my posts.  I think the one on leadership and how officer personnel management often hurts the Army with retention. 

 

Just watch "scheibiester" (sp?) he's a troll of the worst degree. FP doesn't have moderators (which really makes SOFREP the place it is) and livefyre could care less.

 

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @majrod  @ArcticWarrior  @hjw1dr  @RedWanderer

 Do you think the latest generation of adults even knows what School House Rock is? I'd be afraid you would get the blank stare of the culturally uninformed, even if you got them to watch the vids.

majrod
majrod 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 7 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @hjw1dr  @RedWanderer Y'all flatter me and make me nervous holding me in such high regard.  That's pressure to perform. ;)

 

 @LauraKinCA Stating it's School House Rock makes the point to everyone that someone needs some juvenile education.  The video then becomes shits and grins.

 

 @ArcticWarrior  There are some that know there stuff at FP.  There are more  that only know big words.  They try and intimidate you with their vocabulary.  None the less, common sense beats book smart 9 of 10 times.   The key is to stick to your core point as they try and make it sound like you're saying something different.

 

Oh, and the Fri safety briefs did sound a lot like that and German beer isn't Budweiser and don't make me or the 1SGT come pick you up at the MPs. 

 

majrod
majrod 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @ArcticWarrior 

 

 "Lol.....good one and no doubt you will soon find enough of them"

 

True, I feel like velcro for freaks sometimes :)

 

 @LauraKinCA  @hjw1dr  @RedWanderer

 

hjw1dr
hjw1dr 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @majrod  @RedWanderer 

Yeah, he's a laugh a minute!   Very Dry wit...  very.  :)  

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @majrod  @hjw1dr  @RedWanderer

 His sly jokes are some funny shit :)

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

 @LauraKinCA  @majrod  @hjw1dr  @RedWanderer

 Yeah he is pretty calm here..... he even cracks jokes

hjw1dr
hjw1dr 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @majrod  @RedWanderer 

AW,

Serious quote on that?  LOL

hjw1dr
hjw1dr 5pts

 @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @majrod  @RedWanderer 

moderated... I mean

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 7 Like

 @hjw1dr  @LauraKinCA  @majrod  @RedWanderer

 As Major Rod would say at Friday formation at 16:58

 

"Four hit rule gentleman: Do not hit your wife, do not hit the kids, do not hit your dog. And if someone else's wife says hit it, do not. Dismissed."

hjw1dr
hjw1dr 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @majrod  @RedWanderer  So that's what Majrod was referring to when he said he had to get used posting to a site that was actually well monitored.  ah-ha...

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @majrod  @hjw1dr  @RedWanderer

 The heavyweight convos must be fascinating. The eviscerating of the POGeys just has to be fun.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @hjw1dr  @LauraKinCA  @majrod  @RedWanderer

 ForeignPolicy.Com you will see a lot of the same cast over there

hjw1dr
hjw1dr 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @majrod  @RedWanderer  

Okay... I know I'll sound clueless... but FP is?  

hjw1dr
hjw1dr 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @majrod   I was going to say SHR would probably go over their heads today... but Laura beat me to it!  

@LauraKinCA  @ArcticWarrior  @RedWanderer 

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @LauraKinCA  @majrod  @hjw1dr  @RedWanderer

 I can tell immediately when he snares some POGey , Airsofter or Gamer trying to school him. Sometimes though there are some heavyweights at FP who can tangle

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @majrod  @hjw1dr  @RedWanderer

 You're right. I should mosey over there for additional entertainment. I'm usually so caught up here that I forget to go there.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @LauraKinCA  @majrod  @hjw1dr  @RedWanderer

 Just head on to any of the Mil.com offshoots or FP he is usually engaged in a Low to MIC with some unsuspecting fool, its actually funny to read through the last gasp retorts when they realize its over....the one about Soviet weapon superiority is a recent classic

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 6 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @majrod  @hjw1dr  @RedWanderer

 I'd love to be a fly on the wall watching the Major take apart their dumbass arguments with cartoon logic though :)

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @majrod  @LauraKinCA  @hjw1dr  @RedWanderer

 Lol.....good one and no doubt you will soon find enough of them

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @majrod  @ArcticWarrior  @hjw1dr  @RedWanderer

 Just don't include SHR as the series name.... they ones you are tallking about won't get the cultural reference either and then your convo will degenerate into cartoons :)

majrod
majrod 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 6 Like

 @LauraKinCA  @ArcticWarrior  @hjw1dr  @RedWanderer

 

I'm going to have to go through them.  They will come in handy when I need a pithy retort to a low information voter.

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @hjw1dr  @RedWanderer

 Adverb was a great one too. I was just looking at your link to "Bill". I didn't realize that this set of cartoons was from Disney. I shouldn't be I guess. They did other things during WWII. Interesting though.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

 @LauraKinCA  @hjw1dr  @RedWanderer

 I always liked Bill and the Adverb one, Congress can learn something in just a few minutes on YT

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @hjw1dr  @RedWanderer

 "Bill" was always my favorite.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @LauraKinCA  @hjw1dr  @RedWanderer

 They are catchy little ditties arent they?

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @hjw1dr  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFroMQlKiag

 

You're very right about that....

hjw1dr
hjw1dr 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @ArcticWarrior   Hey, I liked SHR too. "The bill" The bill! "  LOL

 

 at least parents should try to stay ahead of the school... and know what the teachers are doing/ teaching. But some schools actually disincentive the parents... then later the schools complain because parents aren't involved. 

Boggles the mind

@LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer 

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @hjw1dr  @RedWanderer

 What's great is that they were well put together that many years ago to still be appropriate and fun to watch now.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @LauraKinCA  @hjw1dr  @RedWanderer

 Lol...Im watching them for my amusement, I amuse easily

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @hjw1dr  @RedWanderer

 What's also sad is that SHR hasn't been aired in what 20 to 30 years regularly, so a good portion of the applicable parents today never watched those shows either to even get excited about showing their kids.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @LauraKinCA  @hjw1dr  @RedWanderer

 Plus its parents responsibilty to know these things and teach them regardless of what they are being taught in school.

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @hjw1dr  @RedWanderer

 Are you pulling out these vids for your kids? At least they are on youtube so you can watch them with your kids.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @LauraKinCA  @hjw1dr  @RedWanderer

 Sad but true.....SHR at least gave kids something.....

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6ikO6LMxF4

 

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

 @hjw1dr  @RedWanderer

 That's why I say at least go back to the good cartoons and bring back Schoolhouse Rock. Then kids would get at least 5 to 10 minutes of real education per week!

hjw1dr
hjw1dr 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer Well, they are the product of our sterling public education... <cough>

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

 @hjw1dr  @RedWanderer

 Yeah, that is really sad. It is painful to watch some of those voter-on-the-street interviews. Incredible how illinformed the voting public is.

hjw1dr
hjw1dr 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 7 Like

 @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer  What gets me is the :man on the street who doesn't know who Joe Biden is or who their own governor is.  Really... if possible there should be a test for voting literacy.

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

 @RedWanderer

 Sorry Red. You'll have to get in line behind the rest of us steamed, informed voters. We're still a fun group though :)

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @majrod  @RedWanderer

 That's another one that boggles - Uncle Joe really thinking that brushstash would actually abide by any treaty. Eastern front was hellish. Still in the middle of Mike Perry's book about the Kursk tank battles - wow!

RedWanderer
RedWanderer 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

LOL @ AW, LauraKin, and mrod.  Now you're making me laugh.  Seriously, I was actually steamed when I wrote that post.....I am so sick of idiot voters.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

 @LauraKinCA  @majrod  @RedWanderer

The prelude to Barbarossa is very good study, each side trying to out jockey and con each other, the dude with the Chaplin 'stache mentioned the necessity of invading Mother Russia in Mein Kampf back in the 20's, so Uncle Joe had to know it was coming, and soon.

 The Eastern Front battles are of epic proportion, the largest commital of troops in history. Everything from all on tank battles at Kursk to house to house, room to room battles at Stalingrad.

 

The frozen dead at Stalingrad

 

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_YYMeAu4i7gA/SsG_SVVX3gI/AAAAAAAAFnc/Ey6zvyYgLDg/s400/german-dead-stalingrad-amazing-second-world-war-01.jpeg

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

 @majrod  @ArcticWarrior  @RedWanderer

 I knew in my gut that most of congress were idiots and didn't know the Constitution, or apparently even use it for proper cheat sheets for pork bills they want passed, but that article pretty much lays it out. Depressing.

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @majrod  @RedWanderer

 I miss Schoolhouse Rock! And you are right about several snow job treaties in the late 30s.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 7 Like

 @majrod  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer

 I saw that...sad isnt it?  But what can we expect, they cant even balance the checkbook

Didnt we all learn about the Constitution in 3rd grade???

 

I'll make it easy for them

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30OyU4O80i4

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer

 The snowjob, The Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, Unternehmen Barbarossa!!!

majrod
majrod 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer

 

 

Well You brought it up...

 

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/jan/14/defenders-of-constitution-dont-always-use-it-for-l/

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 6 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @RedWanderer

 What's stallin' gotta do wid it??

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

 @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer

 Who Stalin????      ; )

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @RedWanderer

 But I don't want to know how many dumbasses know the answer to that one :)

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 7 Like

 @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer

 maybe best to ask " Which Kardashian is pregnant, and by whom? " probably get more correct answers

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 6 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @RedWanderer

 I dunno AW, I kinda like that question. If you know the answer, shows you know who bought into the biggest snow job of the 20th Cen, right??

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