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Home » Op-Ed » What Would Ground Combat and U.S. Involvement in Mali Look Like?

What Would Ground Combat and U.S. Involvement in Mali Look Like?

by Iassen Donov · January 16, 2013 · Posted In: Op-Ed
17.09_desert-du-Mali-bordure-Sahara-Forgho-photo-prise-en-2003-REUTERS-630x420.jpg_scalewidth_630
The subject of this post was brought on by something I read this morning on a news article. To quote the article:

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  • Battle for Mali: Coming Soon, 2013
  • American- *cough* *cough* French Troops Arrive in Mali

By fighting alongside Malian forces, “France is signing a death warrant for French people around the world, opening the gates of hell,” Hamaha said. “This will be a long war…more dangerous than Afghanistan and Iraq.”

I couldn’t help but chuckle at the bold statement. How exactly are you going to back this threat up, Mr. Omar Hamaha, commander of Ansar Dine (an Islamist movement allied with al-Qaeda). So I began thinking about and researching what ground combat would actually look like in Mali, how would it compare to our experiences in Iraq and Afghanistan, and what are French forces on the ground most likely expected to face.

Terrain

Map: Mali compared to Texas

Map: Mali compared to Texas

Mali is a large country, almost twice the size of Texas. I’ve attached a comparison map for all of you visual learners out there. The nation is shaped sort of like a butterfly. The Northern wing (or the portion on the right for all of you hopeless humans out there) is Northern Mali (also known as Azawad) – where all the fighting is. Northern Mali in its entirety is located in the Sahara desert. while the Southern portion is more fertile and “green.”

In terms of elevation, Northern Mali consists of rolling hills and high plateaus that range anywhere from 600 to 1600 feet. The highest point is located far to the Northeast near the Algerian border: Adrar des Ifoghas, about 3200 feet, which is more of series of rock formations rather than mountains. This compares little to Afghanistan, in which soldiers are commonly operating in the rugged mountains at elevations easily above 7,000 feet. I’m simply saying there will be no “mountain hideaways” in Northern Mali for Islamists to operate out of.

Mobility in Northern Mali would be of little issue for the majority of military vehicles, foot patrols are very do-able, and helicopters should be able to get anywhere in the region without too much of a problem. There are certain environmental hazards such as severe sandstorms, one of which claimed the life of a U.S. Special Forces soldier a few years ago during training operations with Malian forces.

Population

Mali has a population of roughly 14.5 million people – 90% of which lives in the South. Roughly 1.3 million people live in the North, spread throughout the large deserts in small communes or living the nomadic lifestyle. The two biggest cities in Northern Mali are Timbuktu (30,000 people) and Gao (50,000 people) – both controlled by the Islamists.

Let’s compare the populations of the areas throughout Iraq (total 31 million) and Afghanistan (total 35 million) that were typical hotbed of insurgent activity:

  • Baghdad – 7 million +
  • Mosul, Iraq – 1.8 million
  • Kirkuk, Iraq – 850,000
  • Fallujah, Iraq – 330,000
  • Helmand Province, Afgh – 1.4 million
  • Kabul, Afghanistan – 3.2 million
  • Kandahar, Afghanistan – 500,000

The huge populations of Afghanistan and especially Iraq made counter-insurgency incredibly difficult.

In Mali, there just isn’t the same ability for Islamists to blend in with local populations. Many of the different Islamist groups operate out of training camps and small bases spread throughout the region. It doesn’t seem as if they operate out of their mother’s basements in secret.

Intelligence

Timbuktu

Timbuktu

It’s not a national secret that nabbing terrorists and insurgents is done through telecommunications. The communications infrastructure in Mali is sub-par, and in Northern Mali it is virtually nonexistent. Roughly 900,000 cellular lines exist in the nation and maybe another 100,000 landlines. Roughly 30% of Iraq’s population has a cell phone and almost 50% of Afghanistan’s population use mobile phones.

In Mali it’s about 6% of the total population, the majority of these cell phone users would most likely live in the Southern half of the country. The lack of a telecommunications infrastructure would make signals intelligence (SIGINT) very difficult for our intelligence agencies and special operations units.

In terms of human intelligence, the official language in Mali is French, and almost 2 million people speak it, with many more who have a basic grasp of the language. With French troops on the ground, the ability to communicate with the host nation’s own troops in their mother tongue is an operational dream come true! Imagine if Afghans spoke English? Talking to the local populations and reaching out to people who want to help against the Islamists wouldn’t garner the same difficulties we faced in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The Enemy

Timbuktu outskirts

Timbuktu outskirts

There are quite a few groups operating in Northern Mali that are causing a ruckus. The Islamist groups which include al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb (AQIM), Ansar Dine, and Movement for Oneness and Jihad in West Africa (MOJWA). These three organizations are allied with each other and have been the main targets by the French and Mali government troops.

There is another major player that I feel is prudent to mention: National Movement for the Liberation of Azawad (MNLA). They are a movement for independence led by the Tuareg, a nomadic people who inhabit the Sahara, and who seek to make Azawad (Northern Mali) independent from Mali.

In 2012, the Tuareg managed to drive the Mali government out of the North. It was because of this defeat (and not because of any problems with the Islamists) that the Mali military ousted the president in a coup d’etat in March of 2012, because they felt his handling of the situation is costing the people their country. And it is because of this coup that the U.S. State Department no longer maintains ties with the current government. The military did what was right and I back them 100% but there is also a soft spot in my heart for certain independence movements.

After taking over the North, the MNLA began an armed struggle against the Islamists and lost their hold of Northern Mali. I don’t know what policies the French currently have on the ground in dealing with the MNLA and their remnants, but in my opinion they should take take the phrase “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” to heart. While the MNLA seek only independence of Azawad from the government, the Islamists seek dominant control over Mali to implement Sharia law.

  • Ansar Dine – 500 to 1000 members
  • AQIM – 800 members
  • MOJWA – no good estimations

From all the news reports I’ve been following it seems as if the Islamists are more guerrilla insurgents then they are your typical terrorists and suicide bombers. The force of 1,200 Islamists that left Konna to assault the Mali military garrison in Mopti traveled by mass convoys. Ballsy, in my opinion.

Possible U.S. Combat Involvement

Saharan Desert

What the vast majority of Mali’s northern region looks like – the Sahara portion

The environment that soldiers will find themselves engaging in will include small urban centers with tiny population densities, as well as training camps throughout the Sahara desert. Light infantry units with ground mobility vehicles (not Strykers or tanks) would do well in this type of environment. So what would U.S. involvement in Mali look like?

A smart combat package of U.S. troops would consist of a battalion from the 75th, which has a sizable fleet of GMVs (a Humvee variant meant for this environment); a fleet of MH-60s and MH-47s from the 160th SOAR; AC-130 gunships; and a contingent of Special Forces ODAs to embed with Mali forces.

JSOC as always would have a role to play in most combat zones, and in Mali it would be no different as there will always be a need to track down and capture the Islamist leadership. The reality is, U.S. combat involvement in the deserts of Northern Mali would consist of a bunch of light infantry units (75th falls under this) driving around the desert engaging Islamists with the help of AC-130 gunships. The need for precise special operations by Delta and Six would be minimal. When your two biggest cities consist of 50,000 and 30,000 people, complicated urban warfare is almost nonexistent.

The current U.S. State Department policy is that we can’t guarantee support to Mali because the government is “illegitimate” due to the coup that took place last year. So my understanding is that we won’t help a country fighting Islamist anti-Western terror groups because they are illegitimate – yet we can support a rebel movement (illegitimate) fighting Qaddafi in Libya by dropping bombs on the Libyan military.

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RedWanderer
RedWanderer 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

For anyone keeping up with Islamist Militant leadership in Africa, here's a recent unconfirmed report:

 

......believed to be among the 32 dead militants in Algeria was their leader, Abdul Rahman al-Nigeri, a Nigerien close to al Qaeda-linked commander Mokhtar Belmokhtar, presumed mastermind of the raid.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/20/algeria-hostages-death-toll_n_2514834.html?utm_hp_ref=world

 

JackMurphyRGR
JackMurphyRGR moderator 5pts

I agree with Iassen but would add that where the enemy masses their forces it could prove useful to conduct Platoon and Company static line insertions, basically fire force tactics as practiced by the RLI.

JHR
JHR 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

This is a great article and the information provided is outstanding. However, I feel as if Mali would not be a cake walk to take. You mentioned comms and terrain, but we need to consider weather. Driving through a sandstorm in that area of the Sahara is horrific. Yet, the natives know how to navigate such soil and they do it weel, same with the fighters. I don't think our equipment can withstand the sandstorms. We know it affects air, comms and ground supports. The winds can come and go at will for 4 or months there. The temps can be HIGH, the rains can be torrential. Thetorential  downpours would make ground support impossible. I've heard rumors from no g-no way - to "a certain unit going in". CIA has a stronghoold next door, they know the turf well. I am sure they will give their 2 cents on conditions. I felt like the statement "that France will pay"...may mean more than "Pay on Mali soil". France will now be a target for all Global Jihadists: "Offend one Group- Offend All" as they say. But, so slose to Cameroon, the French must fight.

dickftr
dickftr 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

Hang in there Iassen, good report. I agree Red Spec it's gonna drag and a donkey can can carry more than one note they will eat stuff a goat won't.

RedSpecnaz
RedSpecnaz 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

likely conflict could drag because of the very low intensity for a long time, possible activization of of Islamists in Europe, but the blow will be dealt a sudden, not now, a little later, and in any country - it is in their style

JHR
JHR 5pts

 @RedSpecnaz Hey A....this is AQ and Global Jihadi  2.0. ...to Attack at least 70 countries at once. Hang On.

 

RedSpecnaz
RedSpecnaz 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

on intelligence reports in the North Caucasus are about 1,000 Islamists, however, these jihadists, supported by part of the population (relatives, sympathy wishing to join the jihad) bring a lot of trouble to the federal forces. The fact that in Mali, only 6% of the population use mobile communication can play into the hands of the jihadists (because they can not be traced by means of radio coverage) they will communicate or share information with hidden notes for example, in the ass with a donkey :-) joke, or in any similar way

JHR
JHR 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @RedSpecnaz Thats just it. It looks easy to fight there, but can we check every Donkey? We don't fight like them. We Need To, in a sense.

 

RedWanderer
RedWanderer 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

U.S. Defense Secretary Leon Panetta, speaking in London, said, "Terrorists should be on notice that they will find no refuge, not in Algeria, not in North Africa, not anywhere. Those who attack our country or our people will have no refuge."

 

 

I'm pretty sure they pay a lot more attention to your actions than your words, Mr. Panetta.

majrod
majrod 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

As we wait (and wait and wait) for any American action...

 

I stumbled across this story which tells a stroy of a "mutiny" (more like whistleblowing on incompetence) at the embassy in Afghanistan .  Incredible working hours, shabby security bomb searching procedures, weapons not zeroed and more...

 

Benghazi unpreparedness on steroids and the kicker is nothing is getting fixed.  Afghanistan wasn't part of the recent review because it had been "upgraded".

 

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/01/17/mutiny_in_kabul?page=0,3

 

Just when you thought it couldn't get worse...

 

BTW, Hillary testifies Wed and Kerry won't be heading the committee or present, doesn't want to be connected (cough) I mean wants to avoid a biased appearance to the hearings.

 

 

Coriolis effect
Coriolis effect 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @majrod

 you think those embassy conditions are bad, in 2000, before USS Cole, on Us Navy warships, only 30% of the crew were Qualed to fire a weapon, and the m14s that the guards of the ship carried...werent loaded

majrod
majrod 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Coriolis effect  True, absolutely stupid but that was BEFORE 911 and Benghazi respectively.

 

Surf375
Surf375 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDVOP0lEECk and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC4PsrOeOqE and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ct4CXZcXR4 (this goes on to like six videos...)

 

While it's fun to play fantasy baseball, we're not committing troops, maybe special units that need to learn by way of these wars, but this administration isn't sending troops in, period. Containment, Core countries handle their Gap countries. 

 

 

 

majrod
majrod 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

Just a thought that I've heard lightly kicked around.  You know the bad guys probably didn't plan and resource this in the 2-3 days the French went into Mali right?

 

Food for thought... 

RedWanderer
RedWanderer 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

Roger that mrod.  From a logistical standpoint it would be hard to argue otherwise.  I also think it wasn't hard for them to anticipate Mali being a good excuse. 

oldSquid
oldSquid 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 7 Like

Don't know where to stick this. May be old news to y'asll...  I was surfing Fox news earlier and they had a map of north Africa with Egypt, Libya, Algeria and Mali highlighted in yellow. They were talking about the situationin Algeria and Mali, but a light came on for me. A few days ago while laid up with this damn flu thing, I saw a program that was discussing some aspect of history (one of the cable hysterical {history} channels), concerning the spread of Islam in the 700's or so - when it was at its high water mark. The map of Africa looked amazingly similar to what I saw on Fox - with the exception that Morocco wasn't colored in. This is where the light went on -  there's been talk of the Muslim Brotherhood/AQ -worldwide etc... wanting to re-establish the caliphate... looks like that's what's going on - been going on and they're gettin' it done.

Logan F Crooks
Logan F Crooks 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

Interesting article Lassen, with all of the DA Raids the 75th has been doing in Afghanistan, I completely overlooked their conventional  function as Light-Infantry. I think it goes without saying that for the strike package, you'd want either conventional Air Force fighters or Naval Aviation parked offshore as well. It wouldn't be popular, but I'm in full-support of SOCOM deployments in this country, with maybe a Marine MEU as a QRF.

Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 11 Like

Iassen, man your killin' it!  I for one truly appreciate your straight forward commentary and I truly am grateful for your imagery!  We need to see about a raise for you!  All the guys out of the office running amok at the SHOT show while poor Iassen holds down the fort.  Taking one for the team!

Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 6 Like

I thought we all might enjoy reading this from Alex Thurston's Sahel Blog, it speaks of the shaky nature of the Bamako Government as well as the special relationship they have with France:



On Intervention, Popularity, and Colonialism in Mali by Alex Thurston

This post has two arguments to make. First, I urge observers of the unfolding conflict in Mali to be cautious about how they interpret reports of Malian enthusiasm for the French intervention. Second, just because the intervention is not "neo-colonial" does not mean that colonialism is not relevant to an understanding of the situation.

On the first point, there have been numerous reports (see one example) of Malians waving French flags, taking up collections for a French helicopter pilot who was killed in action, and performing other symbolic interactions. Anecdotally, many observers report a large, even unanimous degree of expressed support for the French intervention. The enthusiasm seems undeniable. But I think it is important not to assume that this feeling will have staying power or depth; those waving flags may attract more attention now than those who remain silent, and further bloodshed and chaos in the north could turn cheers to boos. I also think it is important not to argue that momentary popularity confers legitimacy on violence or on certain policy decisions; those who say that the intervention is justified because it is popular may soon find they need to make a different argument.

Related to this is the debate about colonialism. Professor Gregory Mann has, in a must-read piece that addresses multiple issues related to the intervention, argued that the French intervention "is not a neo-colonial offensive." I agree with this in the sense that I do not believe the French are primarily motivated by a desire to establish direct, long-term political control over Mali. But I think it is important to underscore that many of the frameworks and infrastructures that are shaping the situation in Mali and the French intervention there have at least some roots in the colonial era: language, boundaries, policies, conflicts, etc. Colonial legacies also haunt us in the way international media and Western policymakers categorize and construct Muslims in Africa. Colonial legacies help structure current politics and policies in profound ways. Surely no one will argue that it is coincidental that France is taking the lead on a Western military intervention in one of its former African colonies, moving troops and equipment through other former African colonies like Chad. That the Malian government asked for French intervention* may mean that France did not impose its will on Mali in the same manner that colonialism occurred, but it does not mean that relationships of power between Mali and France are clear, or equal, or straightforward. I stress this point because I think there is a tendency in some policy conversations to ignore the colonial period, to view it as distant and irrelevant, to suspect those who bring it up of being radicals stuck in the past and allergic to any possibility of Western involvement in Africa. But the legacies of colonialism remain with us in important ways, and it is possible and necessary to discuss them in a responsible manner.

*More accurate would be Al Jazeera's phrasing: "Mali's [interim civilian] President Dioncounda Traore sent a letter to Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, which he transmitted to the Security Council, and a similar letter to French President Francois Hollande seeking assistance from France, the country's former colonial power, against the offensive." To say that the Malian government asked France for help is to simplify power dynamics in Bamako and to project more coherence and authority onto the officially constituted interim government than it possesses, at least in my view.

VermontPT
VermontPT 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

I am trying to recall my history here, so please correct me if I'm wrong: Wasn't the end result of the last US military support of French military action to stop the spread of something (then communism, now jihadists/terrorists) the Vietnam War? I'm all for stopping the plague of terrorism/jihadists, but not under another government's terms.

lecoug
lecoug 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

@VermontPT so because US don't take the lead you're not happy? It's a global war on terror, we should be commending the French for taking the initiative here and offering support where we can (which I'm sure we're doing)

VermontPT
VermontPT 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @lecoug  We've worked collectively with many governments to fight GWOT. My issue is specifically with the French taking point. I don't like their track record dating back to Vietnam. They weren't so inclined to get involved when we went into A-stan or Iraq (probably because their weapons were ending up there). Now, they have skin in the game and they're looking for a partner. I'm reluctant to say the least.  

 

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @VermontPT  @lecoug

 I think the French have the 4th highest KIA in OEF-A, they were reluctant on OIF

They had a decent prescence around Kabul, I believe they are still in with ISAF

shooten
shooten 5pts

Thanks for the background.  Hopefully, it won't get too messy there.  I can see the tier 1 guys being very busy there for a while.

Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

The AQIM Islamists are ethnically different to the Tuareg, and they from most reports do not abide the Tuareg anamist blend of Sufi Islam that permits music and dance, among other heresy.  The failure of the southern portion of the country is an interesting bit of research.  From what I can tell the Taureg have been better armed than the government troops since the late 80's, but they don't have the numbers necessary to hold the vast region.  The Bamako Government has the numbers to hold onto the south but does not have the resources to venture much beyond the green strip following the Niger river.  The impass led to the rapprochement of the 90's and early 2000's.

 

Neither side can prevail without outside help, so they were forced to come together, until AQIM came on the scene.   

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

BBC Breaking News✔@BBCBreaking

Military operation under way at Algerian gas installation where multiple hostages held, UK Foreign Office says

vpi
vpi 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

Iassen, you've done a solid job with your recent posts on this crisis.  However, I'm going to disagree with some of your points here.  

First, your point about the Islamists being able to blend in is somewhat right.  I think you're definitely right about them not being able to blend into the areas in the south, especially areas that they have begun to occupy in the past several months; the locals don't exactly support them.  Nevertheless, I think the human terrain in the north (north of Timbuktu) is very different and much more favorable to the Islamists; that's where they are originated.  who wouldn't underestimate their ability to blend into the population in the northern areas as 1)they originated there, 2)held it longer, 3)got rid of everyone who rebelled against them (last summer, the flood of refugees from north to south was huge), and 4)they are coercing everyone else (likely).  In my opinion, one of the big challenges for the intervening forces is--as I mentioned in a different comment--adapting to the new geography (physical and human) north of Timbuktu.  

 

My second point is less defensible as I lack the real world experience that you and many others have, but it is a point nevertheless.  I don't have a problem with sending in one battalion, but when you look at a country as large as Mali, going after 2000+ guys can be a challenge logistically, and in terms of manpower, especially if the Islamists decentralize and stop massing.  Thus, I think that if the US goes in, they'll need more than one battalion, and likely additional logistics units as they keep pushing north.  Plus, I think logistics and rotary-aviation operations are going to be difficult in this southern Saharan environment.  One idea that could possibly mitigate some of these problems would involve a exerting pressure from the north from either the Algerian or Mauritanian borders (unlikely to happen as these countries want to limit their involvement); hitting the Islamists from north and south could shorten the logistics and limit Islamist movement.

 

My last point actually involves the GMVs you suggest.  It's not that they wouldn't be sufficient, but I think there's a better choice:  MRAPs.  Before I begin explaining the MRAPs, I want to say that the Rangers could complete the task with the GMVs.  However, since its more vulnerable due to its lighter nature, I think that we would see more casualties with the GMVs than MRAPs.  Remember, the Islamists aren't all resorting to farm guns; after months of victories over Mali's military (partially trained and financed by the West), they've been able to likely loot some heavier weapons that could punch through the GMVs.  Why the MRAPs then?  Well first, they're much more powerful in terms of defense; it'll be a lot harder for the Islamists to knock an MRAP out than a GMV.  In this environment,  these guys will essentially view these MRAPs as tanks and have a "holy s**t" moment.  Although they lack the speed of Humvees, they have the ability to get around almost everywhere with maximum protection.  Plus, the terrain is more "tip-friendly" when compared to Afghanistan.  Nevertheless, the way the MRAPs are utilized is critical to success.  Once the Islamists are broken down into more of an insurgency and guerrilla movement (which the French will do), these MRAPs need to be conducting operations at a rapid tempo; they literally need to quickly follow up on attacks and keep tracking the small groups (or individual) of Islamists until they get them.  Although MRAPs mean a bigger logistics system, I think it's worth it.  So where's a guy with no experience drawing this conclusion from?  IMO, this is really similar to the "Koevoet"'s operations during the Nambian conflict.  These guys would track individual enemies from MRAPs for  days until they got them.  The physical geography is quite similar in terms of it being a flat desert at all (just not as sandy).  The Koevoet were very successful on the tactical and operational levels.  Yet, who knows....maybe if we have enough info, we could just try going after their leadership and see what effect that has.  

 

And that's my speel.  I look forward to your next post on the conflict and will try to shorten my next comment.  

Riceball
Riceball 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 6 Like

 @vpi I'm not sure that MRAPS would be ideal for the situtaion even if they are better armored than a GMV. The prime reason being that they lack mobility, off road mobility in particular, due to their weight. That's probably why Iassen said, no tank, MRAPs, or Strykers, I'm guessing no tanks because they're not particularly well suited for patrolling large swaths of desert looking for a bunch of guys on foot and Strykers and MRAPS are probably too heavy for what's probably soft sand.

StormR
StormR 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 8 Like

Another great article that lays out a complex situation in a manner that we laywomen can easily understood.  The phrase 'political expediency' comes to mind, so I imagine there is high-level discussions going on to 'recognize' the government of Mali as legitimate.  Once that occurs, all kinds of things can go into play, and most likely will.  Somebody, this is probably a dumb question, but why wouldn't satellite phones work in areas where there is no cell service?   And lastly, gosh...I didn't know there was a real place called Timbuktu. 

RedWanderer
RedWanderer 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @StormR Actually, I'm thinking this Administration won't change their mind about recognizing Mali that easily.  I have no proof.  It's 100% gut based on their past.

StormR
StormR 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @RedWanderer  It goes back to the 'enemy of my enemy is my friend' thing....US government has always followed that policy and it frequently backfires, so it would not surprise me.

RedWanderer
RedWanderer 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

LOL, Storm, I didn't know Timbuktu was real either!

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 10 Like

 @RedWanderer

 The legendary ancient markets of Timbuktu, probably hasnt changed in a thousand years

 

http://globewallpapers.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Women-at-Tombouctou-Market-Mali-Donne-al-Mercato-di-Tombouctou-Timbuktu-Mali.jpg

oldSquid
oldSquid 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer  @Recon6

 After you've been to sea for a while, you can actually smell land. And every Country has it's own peculiar odor. For instance, you could tell a couple days out when we were nearing Hong Kong - or our Homeport in Yokosuka. Hell, we could even tell a difference when we were near Danang or up on Yankee Station in the North. And the memory of the smell stays with you. My Dad took us to Japan when I was a kid and he was stationed there in 56-60. When I landed at Yokota for my own tour of duty, as soon as they opened the door of the plane and I got a whiff of the air, I KNEW I was back in Japan. I remembered that smell.

dmalert
dmalert 5pts

 @RedWanderer  @LauraKinCA  @ArcticWarrior  @Recon6 Why not go to CAR then.  I believe Txazz has been talking it up.

Txazz
Txazz 5pts

 @LauraKinCA  @StormR  @ArcticWarrior  @RedWanderer yes, I did the same.

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @StormR  @ArcticWarrior  @RedWanderer

 I had to copy the whole thing and paste into new browser window then it worked.

StormR
StormR 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @RedWanderer AW...the link doesn't work for me..it's my bad technological mojo..

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @StormR  @ArcticWarrior  @RedWanderer  @Recon6

 I wouldn't have minded if one of those sat phones mysteriously fell off a truck near me!

StormR
StormR 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @LauraKinCA  @ArcticWarrior  @RedWanderer  @Recon6   Laura, maybe the guy driving the truck that will accidentlly have things fall off could do some shopping for us..it would be a handy excuse for them to be in the neighborhood.

Txazz
Txazz 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @LauraKinCA  @ArcticWarrior  @RedWanderer  @Recon6 I was sure willing to try but, my hubby had other ideas.  lol

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Txazz  @ArcticWarrior  @RedWanderer  @Recon6

 I imagine, it is impossible to get the smell out of skin with fur/hair like that.

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @RedWanderer  @ArcticWarrior  @Recon6

 Cool! I love blue and gold - the Wolverine in me :)

Txazz
Txazz 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 7 Like

 @LauraKinCA  @ArcticWarrior  @RedWanderer  @Recon6 When I lived and skiid in Garmisch, Larua, there was the Rod and Gun Club - they had the neatest hairy coat - kinda Sherpa style I desperately wanted - but, oh the smell.

RedWanderer
RedWanderer 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 6 Like

 @LauraKinCA  @ArcticWarrior  @Recon6 I'll go.  I love exploring shitholes. 

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 7 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @RedWanderer  @Recon6

 Well, I was considering the sanitized version... you know, send one of you all over there to do my shopping then bring it back to me :)

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 8 Like

 @LauraKinCA  @RedWanderer

 Im sure, but the smell, I see that picture and the smell of the place, its always the same. @Recon6 told me in SE Asia it was the same, the smell was always the same

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @RedWanderer

 Gorgeous textile fabrics.

Txazz
Txazz 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @RedWanderer I don't believe you gals . . . . .

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 11 Like

 @StormR

 Sat phones do work, in fact in that terrain they would work great, in fact us and the UK gave a whole bunch of them to the ummm Syrian Freedom Fighters just a few months back....

StormR
StormR 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 9 Like

 @ArcticWarrior I have a number of friends who are Bering Sea fishermen, and all the boats have Sat phones.  Expensive as heck to use, but they can & do call from just about anywhere  - well, not when they are sneaking into the Russian fishing grounds :).   So, would Sat phones solve the communication problems Iassen was talking about?   Oh, UK gave the errrr freedom fighters sat phones?  Gee, I thought maybe the phones just fell off a truck and nobody noticed....

RedWanderer
RedWanderer 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

I have a great impression of Sat phones.  When I was in Iraq the first time, they gave me four cell phones to carry at the same time....none of which worked more than 30% of the time.  The only thing I could rely on all the time was the Sat phone.  But it was not mobile so that may have something to do with it.  And my data points were a lot smaller than yours, I'm sure.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 7 Like

 @StormR

 Sat phones work until you really need them.....

 

The SIGINT intercepts on SATCOM Constellations are very possible, encryption algorithms can be cracked for all but the highest end JSOC type equipment nowadays

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