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Home » Black Ops & Intel » Military Cyber Assault Testing Reveals Data Leaks

Military Cyber Assault Testing Reveals Data Leaks

by Uri · January 18, 2013 · Posted In: Black Ops & Intel
Military Cyber Assault Testing Reveals Data Leaks
During multiple military cybersecurity assessments last year of both simulated and real-world missions — three of which involved units deployed to U.S. Central Command’s area of operations, which includes the Middle East and Afghanistan — personnel leaked the positions and activities of allies to adversaries, Defense Department officials told Congress this week.

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The incidents were disclosed as part of an annual report by J. Michael Gilmore, director of operational test and evaluation for Defense. The report assesses the operational effectiveness of systems being developed for combat.

This example and other lapses in information security indicate Defense “has not yet developed sufficiently advanced cyber defensive tactics to counter advanced adversary tactics,” he said.

Testers rarely let drills run their full course to avoid severe disruptions, but “in those exercises where operational effects were permitted,” the results were “disclosure of friendly force locations and activities to the opposition force,” among other setbacks, Gilmore wrote.

This specific error meant fewer enemy casualties, he added. Other outcomes included the loss of critical network capabilities during active campaigns and delays in transmitting operational data.

The report covered system assessments between October 2011 and October 2012. During the year, red teams consisting of service members posing as adversaries regularly succeeded in penetrating and exploiting networks.

When confronted with test-scenario high-level threats, in some instances, personnel mistook the cyberattacks for “maintenance issues, poor system performance, or anomalies” and did not bother to inform cyber defenders or Pentagon leaders, Gilmore wrote. Meanwhile low-to-moderate level threats undermined the quality and security of critical information to an extent “that could (and where permitted did) degrade mission accomplishment significantly,” he added.

In several cases, personnel ignored “attribution” procedures to confirm that red teams caused the compromises because they felt the process was cumbersome, Gilmore reported.

Read the whole article at Nextgov.

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Uri

Former recon and sniper turned red teams and disruptive digital warfare expert.

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Sonnys Mom
Sonnys Mom 5pts

'Bout time!

Txazz
Txazz 5pts

Majrod I hope you especially see this one - comments please from any and all.

 

Terrorism Center at West Point Warns Against Danger of American Limited-Government Activists and ‘Far Right’ Jan. 18, 2013 11:30am

The Combating Terrorism Center (CTC) at the U.S. Military Academy at West Point released a study Tuesday warning against American “far right” groups including the “anti-federalist” movement and strong limited government activists.

The report, titled “Challengers from the Sidelines: Understanding America’s Violent Far-Right,” posits that in recent years, and especially since 2007, “there has been a dramatic rise in the number of attacks and violent plots originating from individuals and groups who self-identify with the far-right of American politics.”

The analysis, conducted by West Point professor and CTC director of terrorism studies Arie Perliger, noted that his study “concentrates on those individuals and groups who have actually perpetuated violence and is not a comprehensive analysis of the political causes with which some far-right extremists identify.” He added that an in-depth look at the data provided addresses three crucial questions: 

(1) What are the main current characteristics of the violence produced by the far right?

(2) What type of far-right groups are more prone than others to engage in violence? How are characteristics of particular far-right groups correlated with their tendency to engage in violence?

(3) What are the social and political factors associated with the level of far-right violence? Are there political or social conditions that foster or discourage violence?

The West Point professor said anti-federalists “espouse strong convictions regarding the federal government, believing it to be corrupt and tyrannical, with a natural tendency to intrude on individuals’ civil and constitutional rights. Finally, they support civil activism, individual freedoms, and self government. Extremists in the anti-federalist movement direct most their violence against the federal government and its proxies in law enforcement.”

Perliger also identified limited government activists as belonging to one of three categories: “a racist/white supremacy movement, an anti-federalist movement and a fundamentalist movement.”

According to the Washington Times, the report also draws correlation between mainstream conservatism and what it dubs the violent “far right.” The study then goes on to laud liberals as forward-thinking while maintaining that conservatives harbor a more archaic mindset.

“While liberal worldviews are future- or progressive -oriented, conservative perspectives are more past-oriented, and in general, are interested in preserving the status quo,” the report states.

“The far right represents a more extreme version of conservatism, as its political vision is usually justified by the aspiration to restore or preserve values and practices that are part of the idealized historical heritage of the nation or ethnic community.”

Citing a reported 350 “attacks initiated by far-right groups/individuals” in 2011, the analysis characterizes the liberal-democratic system as inclusive and “designed to emphasize civil rights” while far-right ideology inherently “excludes” minorities.  

Perlinger’s study, however, has not gone without meeting a degree of criticism. Speaking to the Times, a Republican congressional staffer slammed: “If [the Defense Department] is looking for places to cut spending, this junk study is ground zero.”

He added that the Combating Terrorism Center should be focused on radical Islam and, at the least, publish a companion report underlying the dangers of left-wing terror groups like “the Animal Liberation Front, Earth Liberation Front, and the Weather Underground.”

The CTC describes itself as “one of the leading academic institutions devoted to the study of terrorism” whose research is informed by three core components including” studying emerging threats, challenging conventional logic and offering counter intuitive insights.”

ufridman
ufridman 5pts

 @Txazz essentially they want anarchy. Everyone on its own. I can see a Mad Max world descending on this if this ever happens...

I don't get it. 

shagstar
shagstar 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

just came out!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xn_R5_FXT_0&feature=share&list=UUEL5PzZ2y3ob-Ap6ondbSmg

ufridman
ufridman 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @shagstar too much to handle! Another fantastic video.

 

People, remember, ZDT is fantasy, not real, holliwood. It does NOT portrait real people. Respect the hard working OGA people and NSW operators.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @shagstar

 Sealy has limited camera time but he tends to steal the show....that was awesome

majrod
majrod 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 6 Like

 @shagstar  Heck with the buckets, I'm lazy. Just get me a hose.

 

iceviking
iceviking 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @shagstar (note to self; don't ever owe him money)

Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @shagstar OOOOOH, Shit!  That's Funny! 

Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

Cyber assault and Porn, kinda goes together right?

http://www.allspammedup.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/cyber-warrior.jpg

 

iceviking
iceviking 5pts

//**thread jack: I came across this Larry the lounge lizard (god that dates me!) it's hilarious for all the intel nerds out there. Has to do with Bush coming into office as a Larry the Lounge Lizard scenario. http://tny.cz/e71596e8 (pwrd= lowercase name of this site). Sorry, didn't know where to post this :( end threadjack*/

Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @iceviking Dude, I haven't played Larry in years.  One hint for those who don't know, Old school 70's porn will help with the answers.

iceviking
iceviking 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Old PH2 ahhh... 70's porn... when razors hadn't been invented*

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

 @iceviking  @shooten  @Old PH2

 Well, if I had any illusions left about how guys can be.... that pretty much destroyed the last of them.

shooten
shooten 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @TKW406 That gate is open and you don't want to go in there.

 

 

 @iceviking Great story.  I've got people walking by my office wanting to know why i'm cracking up.  NSFW.

 

 @LauraKinCA  @Old PH2 

TKW406
TKW406 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @iceviking  @LauraKinCA  @shooten  @Old PH2 

 

Somebody wanna go check the gate please?

iceviking
iceviking 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @LauraKinCA  @shooten  @Old PH2 Ok true story time. "A friend" is on an undisclosed "camping ground" on the Eastern Shore in VA. He'd recently started dating Magdela (names changed for OPSEC). They get separated during the evening, my friend, being the charming handsome devil he is, rendezvous with another unsuspecting target and proceeds to head back to extract location. While they are debriefing (pun intended), target says "I think there's someone else in this tent", my friend looks around and manages to angrily mumble out "no, we're alone." (bc mezcal is a mutha) ) and continues operation DeBrief (sorry, still classified). Ten minutes later, while the interrogation is ongoing, a sleeping bag 2 ft away moves at which point he realizes the tent has been infiltrated by Magdela. Immediately  he smoothly says "honey, I work for the government and I think our location has been jepordized"  (I don't know, I wasn't there) and escorts her out like a boss and returns to tent without awakening Magdelga. Men are pigs in my opinion.

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @shooten  @Old PH2  @iceviking

 Heck yeah I want in :) I like the user option idea. Allows for certain periods of desparation - user defined. Good idea.

shooten
shooten 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @LauraKinCA  @Old PH2  @iceviking Interesting take on that Laura.  You could make the app make someone look how they really are in spite of the beer or you could make someone look better as if you had already been drinking.  User configurable.  I suppose you want 10%.

shagstar
shagstar 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @Old PH2  @shooten  @iceviking 

c'mon PH,,,yer not spoken for,,you are owned!!  lol

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts

 @Old PH2  @shooten  @iceviking

 That would just be cruel!! Why would anyone (M or F) buy an app that results in having to gnaw off an arm the next day?? Isn't that what drinking buddies are for?

iceviking
iceviking 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @LauraKinCA  @shooten  @Old PH2 Mrs Laura, that's the difference between women friends and men friends. Women will talk their friends out of it. Guys, will just call you the next day to make fun of you. Not that it ever happened to me of course. I'm too handsome.

iceviking
iceviking 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @shooten  @Old PH2 We can read between the lines. Your wife is sitting next to you, isn't she? ;P

Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

 @LauraKinCA  @shooten  @iceviking Or into one?

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @shooten  @Old PH2  @iceviking

 Is that like the navigation units that talk you through directions but only in this case it talks you out of a Coyote Ugly episode??

shooten
shooten 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Old PH2  @iceviking I keep trying to get my software geek buddies to develop it.  I only want 20% for the idea.

Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @shooten  @iceviking I'd buy that if I wasn't previously spoken for!

shooten
shooten 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Old PH2  @iceviking I see you guys are using the beer goggle app for the iPhone.

Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @iceviking It ain't you, yup still HOT!  Some things just get better with age!

iceviking
iceviking 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Old PH2 Tony Montana style right there. I think I hit that after a night of being a "rush hour cone operator on Coronado bridge". Good times... is it me or is she still hot?

shagstar
shagstar 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 6 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @Old PH2  @iceviking 

when i ETS'D my first time in 78,,i stayed in Auroa,Co with my brother and went total disco duck for a couple of months with my polyester angle flights,,silk shirt and dingo boots!  used to troll the Bogart's disco in Denver and the Lady and the dove in Cherry Creek above Aurora!  lot's of boobs and ass but,,those people were so tweaked out i re-enlisted!!  lol  good times 

iceviking
iceviking 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @TKW406  @ArcticWarrior  @Old PH2 BOOM! Mutha 33f3rz

 

TKW406
TKW406 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @Old PH2  @iceviking 

Haven't even opened the vid yet and can answer, "YES!!"

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @Old PH2  @iceviking

 Hot tub Johnny!!!

Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @iceviking Does this bring back memories?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqXpWJhsuaI

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Old PH2  @iceviking

 Lol..thats twisted

iceviking
iceviking 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @Old PH2 that's why I'm here! 

RedSpecnaz
RedSpecnaz 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @iceviking Victor, what a secret website? there that the secrets of the state?

RedSpecnaz
RedSpecnaz 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

so can begin Terminator 2 Judgment Day))) joke

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

 @RedSpecnaz

 no joke dude, bad enough the technological singularity is coming

RedSpecnaz
RedSpecnaz 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @ArcticWarrior that's for sure, if the jihadists will go to the allies to "green" us lid

RedSpecnaz
RedSpecnaz 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 6 Like

By the way, about who climbs over networks. Once had a case in the 80's over the silos with a ballistic missile hovering UFO, electronic starting system themselves began to prepare the rocket for launch. The only thing that saved the situation is the fact that at the end of the algorithm, it was necessary to mechanically (by hand) to insert two keys at the same time them to turn ... ((like this here

Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 6 Like

So our vaunted technological superiority might be rendered null and void?  Way back when this was part of our regular FleetEX's we practiced the eventuality that all comms would fail.  As cool as all this information sharing is, and believe me after seeing the fratricide of a number of our people during Gulf War 1; I like the concept, but constantly wonder about the security of it.

TKW406
TKW406 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Old PH2  Can you guys tell me if, in your opinion, our guys still receive adequate training in the "old school" methods OR are we going to heavy with the high tech?

RedSpecnaz
RedSpecnaz 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

 @TKW406  @Old PH2 just imagine for a moment that the infiltration of the rebels shot down a helicopter or plane in which you fly a mission, you are on the ground (in the desert, the jungle, the forest, tundra) without means of high technology, what then? just good old survival techniques in the wild) and no internet does not help if you're Internet technology in the Amazon jungle then the you "zero"

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 7 Like

 @TKW406  @Old PH2

 Never enough in my opinion, Land Nav ( and Urban Nav) need to be better taught no matter what era

Txazz
Txazz 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @TKW406  @majrod  @LauraKinCA 6 told the story of he and his wife sitting on their porch watching the Golden Knights jump.  One guy streamed and landed in a tree.  They had jumped in their car and driven to the spot and he was ok except the the owner of the tree who was giving him hell.  They gave him a ride back to the DZ.

majrod
majrod 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @ArcticWarrior #1 is great if you are in the groove.  Not the same after a 10 year break and an afternoon spent doing PLFs the day before.  (the Blackhat loved it.  Major comes up to him over at the jump school and ask him to give  some refresher after ten years.  Spent an hour in the woodchips. I appreciated him taking the time out of his schedule though and he got a story.)

 

@TKW406  @Txazz  @LauraKinCA

 

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @majrod  @TKW406  @Txazz  @LauraKinCA

 Pride can be stronger than fear :)  -   amen to that

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @TKW406  @majrod  @Txazz  @LauraKinCA

 I liked it, let me the fuck out sooner rather then later. Too many jokers ahead of you and that same guy will always suck your air....

majrod
majrod 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @TKW406 Yes, they open the door and you are looking out or standing in the door waiting if you're the #1 jumper.  There's a chance if you go early you'll go in the trees but the big thing for me was after a ten year break looking out the door was a bit stressing.  They usually put veteran jumpers in front of school students for that reason exactly.  You get less hesitation.

 

No problem though, he tapped, I went.  Pride can be stronger than fear :)

 

 @Txazz  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA

 

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @majrod  @TKW406  @Txazz  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA

 I loved #1 !!!!

 

The pysche out is a very good point, it can be contagious and that is a very bad thing with Privates around

 

Then there are helos....pine trees scrapping the bottom while NOE at night...or the feeling when you know he has bad air when flaring in and you swear that impact is coming and pucker up...

TKW406
TKW406 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @majrod Is #1 position bad because of the psychological factor or something else?

 

 @Txazz  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA 

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @majrod  @Txazz  @LauraKinCA  @TKW406

 We werent jumping but were security for a Pathfinder DS team, while watching one guy didnt get a good opening, was a cig roll right away, we kept waiting, and waiting, guys are yelling at him ( as if he could hear ) what looked like 100 AGL guys reserve popped open and somehow he only got a sprained ankle. I thought he was pancaking in and we were going to see it.

So many ways it can go bad...Mae Wests, Cigarettes, sucked air.......

majrod
majrod 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @TKW406  I had a ten year break in jump status.  My first jump after ten years was the #1 position (AWESOME!!! Not.).  Got into a discussion with the jumpmaster who had six years. (Yeah, he was in grammer school when i made my last jump).

 

Anyway emergency procedures have become MUCH more complicated in the last decade and he starts explaining throwing my reserve in the opposite direction of spin etc. and my eyes glazed over.  I put my hand up, "Jumpmaster, just get me out the door, gravity and God will do the rest." 

 

It was a good chuckle.  He was starting to psyche me out.  The plane was full of first time jumpers mostly privates and I would have had to shoot myself if I froze :)

 

@Txazz  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA

 

Txazz
Txazz 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @TKW406  @majrod  @LauraKinCA Only once did I jump without packing my own - never forget that one - never again.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @TKW406  @majrod  @Txazz  @LauraKinCA

 Guys will do stupid things also, like unhook and rehook without asking a JM. Riggers usually arent the cause, stupid people cause a lot of there own misery.

Txazz
Txazz 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @majrod  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @TKW406 Yes, had that drummed into our heads and we always jumped out of small aircraft for the most part.  The Caribou, helicopter and whatever it was in Germany were only military craft for me.  The week before my first jump there was a girl and a guy doing first jumps.  They were nervous about the girl and put the auto reserve opener on hers and the guy was the one who went all the way in.  They were nervous about me, too as I never said much (I was soaking it in), until I got to know them. LOL 

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @majrod  @TKW406  @Txazz  @LauraKinCA

 Tree'd into the reserve, yes it does happen, and everyone laughs at the guy, and if he is low enough he is like a pineta....but I have only HEARD about such thing

 

 "RANGER WITH THE MALFUNCTION, PULL YOUR RESERVE, PULL YOUR RESERVE"   as I was reading that I knew where that would end ...LOL

 

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @majrod  @Txazz  @LauraKinCA  @TKW406

 ....always make sure your jumpers line isnt misrouted under his harness. Scary stuff.

My fav was guys who double inflated

TKW406
TKW406 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

 @majrod  Shit, I thought the dangerous part was having to go to battle!  Guess not.

 

 @Txazz  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA 

majrod
majrod 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @Txazz There's tons of bad stories out there.  The  worst involve a reserve being deployed in the aircraft.  In that case everyone is taught to jump on it because if it makes it to the door everyone in front of that jumper is likely dead.

 

 @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @TKW406

 

Txazz
Txazz 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @majrod  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @TKW406 OMG these are awful stories.  tough tough  In between stories I am searching the house for my log book and that's driving me nuts.  I will find it!

majrod
majrod 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @ArcticWarrior Most towed jumpers are killed (static line around the neck, suds on the airfield don't help being dragged down the tarmac at over 100mph but they hide the gore).  Not sure about the 90's.  Had one in the early 80's.  Static line was misrouted.  Stripped the arm from the shoulder to the wrist. 

 

 @Txazz  @LauraKinCA  @TKW406

 

majrod
majrod 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

 @ArcticWarrior Be thankful they don't have pictures.  Then there are the stories of the treed jumper who pops his reeserve to climb down and in the process climbs down INTO his reserve.  Yes, Its happened (NOT to me).

 

During Ranger School I remember a mass  tac where one jumper had a mae west.  RI starts yelling through a megaphone, "RANGER WITH THE MALFUNCTION, PULL YOUR RESERVE, PULL YOUR RESERVE"

 

A dozen guys pulled their reserves.  Looked like a bunch marshmellows suddenly appeared.  HILARIOUS!!! Unless you were one of the 11 :( 

 

 

 @TKW406  @Txazz  @LauraKinCA

 

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @majrod  @Txazz  @LauraKinCA  @TKW406

 Didnt a guy get killed at Bragg in the late 90s getting towed, he kept getting smashed against the side real violently???

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @TKW406  @majrod  @Txazz  @LauraKinCA

 Being tree'd is only funny if its not you ......

majrod
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 @ArcticWarrior Any DZ can be unfriendly.  Depends on how you land or who's there.

 

 @Txazz  @LauraKinCA  @TKW406

 

ArcticWarrior
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 @majrod  @Txazz  @LauraKinCA  @TKW406

 Lol..no that was funny, great answer as well.

 

Fryar is at Airborne School, on the Alabama side, with drainage ditches a plenty for all you legs.

 

 I have seen bad ones, rebar on them, coral under the sand,....

 

Holland DZ not friendly to me, but everyone usually says the worst was the very last one...

 

I landed in a snow drift at Husky that I couldnt climb out of...it was a disaster

 

In fact thinking about it there are a lot of unfriendly DZs

majrod
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@ArcticWarrior  Did you ever hear the “Towed Jumper” shtick?

 

For those that haven’t …

Towed Jumper – Static line malfunction where a jumper does not separate from the aircraft and is “towed” by the aircraft by his static line.

 

Before a jump, jumpmaster conducts a safety brief here’s a portion of one I got back in the day…

 

Fit, tough, immaculate Jumpmaster (yeah, I’m being redundant) “Should you find yourself to be a towed jumper place your hands upon your head demonstrating you are conscious and I will cut you loose from the aircraft.  You will employ your reserve chute and conduct a flawless PLF on the drop zone.  In the event you are unconscious or cannot be cut away we will soak the field in flame retardant suds and land the aircraft upon which time I will cut you away.  You will immediately run around the aircraft three times jump up on the nose, look that nasty leg pilot in the eye and yell “AIRBORNE”! “

 

 @Txazz  @LauraKinCA  @TKW406

 

TKW406
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 @ArcticWarrior "...and preserved the intactness of my wrinkle star."

               -That's funny AW!

 

 @majrod  @Txazz  @LauraKinCA 

ArcticWarrior
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 @majrod  @Txazz  @LauraKinCA  @TKW406

 With bloody knees, a tooth loose and a taste of blood on those apples....

ArcticWarrior
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 @majrod  @LauraKinCA  @TKW406

And people think the Airborne Infantry isnt fun........... what do they know

majrod
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 @ArcticWarrior LOL, man you keep reminding me

Floating down into Fryer DZ we're trying to slip as close to the trucks as possible.  I float safely past the stream running down the center when I have to slip into the wind.  Land right in the middle of waist deep water.  Come out spurting and spitting.  Softest landing I ever had.

 

But invariably my luck always returns.  Blackhat looks down on me starts yelling,

"WTF Airborne! You think you're a SEAL!?!?"  Recover my chute and do some pushups. 

 

After dropping off the gear I'm the only soaked guy in the stands waiting for the trucks.  "What happened to you?" I'm asked.  "Perspiration problem Dude."

 

It was funny, you had to be there.

 

 @Txazz  @LauraKinCA  @TKW406

 

majrod
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 @ArcticWarrior  I was pretty proud of myself.  Wish someone had seen it.

 

Why do we do stupid stuff like that?  Some say it's "madness",   I say...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZeYVIWz99I

 

;)

 

@LauraKinCA  @TKW406

 

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Txazz  @majrod  @LauraKinCA  @TKW406

 No waterborne will kill you, screw that.

ArcticWarrior
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 @majrod  @LauraKinCA  @TKW406

 

If your going to do a 47 jump ala Normandy like these boys count  me in !

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_Army_Pathfinders_June_1944.jpg

 

I was the opposite, caught inversions seems like every other jump, which of  course meant I wasnt carrying enough weight ; ) I could be first out last  down.

 

Saw a guy get dragged very similar, he caught a ground gust and  inflated, dragged about 30 yards, we ran like hell to get to him, he was cut up  pretty bad, thats so dangerous when you have a brain bruise and arent out of  harness.

Not to belittle your injury but you NEVER admit your hurt that bad, you pack  up and run and take a tylenol later - wtf do we do that????

 

I tree'd once, did it right and preserved the intactness of my wrinkle  star

 

Lol thats style points for sure putting your pot on like that !!!!!

Txazz
Txazz 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @majrod  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @TKW406 Ouch ouch

majrod
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 @Txazz BTW, if you REALLY want to sense getting drug across that newly graveled road you have to bob for apples in a tub filled with rocks and be sure to lick some dust off them...   YEAH!!!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsqJFIJ5lLs

 

We haven't evolved too much :)

 

 @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @TKW406

 

majrod
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 @Txazz Nah, i'm saving that one for an audience and the right moment.  Has to be a rapelling/fastrope story with an opening for extremely hilarious self humiliation.

 

It's up there with how a kid from Brooklyn learned to swim...

 

 @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @TKW406

 

Txazz
Txazz 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @TKW406 AW is that question for me?  If it is, I don't remember.  As you can see I don't tell stories worth a hoot.  In fact, I went digging in my closet looking for my log book so I could check out the location.  That meet was Ft. Sill, I think and Fort Carson was jumping at a rodeo.  lol  I do remember Germany, Green Berets though.

Txazz
Txazz 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @majrod  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @TKW406 well then, go for it!  We're listening

majrod
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 @Txazz  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @TKW406  Other people's pain is typically hilarious!  I have a rapelling story that's a doozy.  My wife cries when I tell it.

 

Txazz
Txazz 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @TKW406  @majrod  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA My training was doing PLF's off the tailgate of a truck and safety stuff, of course.

TKW406
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 @majrod  I could picture every bit of that story Major!  Good stuff.

 

@ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA @Txazz 

Txazz
Txazz 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @majrod  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @TKW406 I don't do Airborne - that stuff mightl kill ya.

Txazz
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 @majrod  @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @TKW406 I am really laughing now envisioning it.  LOL  ROFLBO

majrod
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 @ArcticWarrior  I just never liked jumping from jets that much.  "Did they have jets at Normandy!" (in my best Belushi voice)  Yeah, I admit I fantasized a bit before a C130 jump...

 

Oh, before I forget.  The last jumper can land before the rest of the stick depending on his weight and load...   I always hit hard personally.  Like a sack of potatoes out a second story window.  On a particularly personally insulting and painful jump I landed on the only just graveled single lane hard pack road in the middle of a newly plowed field.  3 point landing (feet, butt, head).  As I laid there stunned, air knocked out of me and waiting for the pain to fill the void my chute inflated and drug me face first across the road I had just rolled off of.  Rolling on my back in pain and looking up at the sky/flashing multicolored stars I heard in the distance,  "Hey, you OK Sir?"  I jumped up yelled Huah or something equally stupid and mumbled to myself.  Did the whole run off the field dump chutes thing to later find out I compressed my spine and blew out some vertabrae.  WONDEFUL!   

 

On a lighter note.  On one of my last jumps the chute came out of the pack tray and knocked my helmet off.  I caught it, one handed, in the air!  Slammed it back on my head and everything went dark!

 

Then I turned my helmet around (had it on backwards) and struggled to snap it before I hit the ground so I didn't look like a newbie.  :)

 

 

 @LauraKinCA  @TKW406

 

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Txazz  @majrod  @LauraKinCA  @TKW406

 I flew in Beavers a lot, especially out to Finger Lake area, one time it was so bad with turbulence I was going to open the door and go for it and take my chances. The little guys bob around like corks in the ocean too much for my taste. Smallest I want is a 130.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts

 @Txazz  @LauraKinCA  @TKW406

 Thats a really cool story, was it with 10th Gp ?

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @majrod  @LauraKinCA  @TKW406

 141s I never liked. 1st they leaked fluids of every kind, they smelled bad, and porposed too much. 17s are nice comparitively like they were built with jumping in mind. 130s were, well 130s  ; )

I prefered to be on terra firma the sooner the better...especially on a night mass tac

Txazz
Txazz 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @TKW406 Yes, Maj I was a civi but, the Col let me jump Army at the meet at Ft. Carson, CO.  How great is that - I was an Army nurse for the day.  Yes, it's a slow baby.  No static lines though.  LOL

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Txazz  @majrod  @LauraKinCA  @TKW406

 Thats Hollywood to us dopes on a rope....   : )

Txazz
Txazz 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @majrod  @LauraKinCA  @TKW406 errr I mean exited - LOL LOL   excited remembering.

majrod
majrod 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  Never jumped a C17 but sounds a lot like a C141.  I'm a traditionalist.  I like to work a little bit for that high :) 

 

 @LauraKinCA  @TKW406

 

Txazz
Txazz 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @majrod  @LauraKinCA  @TKW406 AW, largest aircraft I excited was a Caribou - really lovely.

ArcticWarrior
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 @majrod  @LauraKinCA  @TKW406

 I was honestly surprised them letting out the footage of the student getting assistance leaving.....

I saw the Spades but I also thought I saw Diamonds, 1/501, not sure why 506th on some of those guys, good question.

 I agree the spread is much better 800-900 AGL on tighter DZs and has neglible impact on injuries.

 

At 3:48 on your first vid I was LMAO

 

True 130 require some self help but the blast was easier then a 140 which I really did not like one bit. The 17s are like Cadillacs, just step on out.

 AT 1:02 of your second vid is a good example of a 130 exit gone bad, 1:57 in slo mo Nothing beats a Chinook John Wayne for the fun of it. Never did a C5 jump, can only imagine....

majrod
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@ArcticWarrior@LauraKinCA@TKW406  ArcticWarrior.  As you likely know, "technically" you aren't supposed to "help" troops leave the aircraft unless it's combat or a safety issue.  I have seen much more "energetic" assistance rendered involving kicks and prying fingers from the door.  Always "disconcerting" to other jumpers.

 

Reminds me of a hilarious shtick 've heard various jumpmasters use in pre jump briefs,  e.g. "Gentlemen, we will be exiting the aircraft at 800 feet unless you hesitate in my door.  In that case you will be jumping from 900 feet after I kick you in the ass."

 

(Always good for a chuckle)

 

As an aside I've heard it's rare for 800' jumps these days but that was the mass tac jump in "jump school" back in '83 and common in Ranger school.  Lower jumps were actually desired because the "spread" was a little less so you had a shorter distance to hump your gear to the trucks. 

 

Did you notice on your video that the first couple of jumpers have Spades on their helmets? That the 506th which is not on jump status...  Interesting.

 

Anyway, here's a personal favorite that gets some bellylaughs for the airborne infantry types...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMC7sHA8Iso

 

Then there's this one (which is a mass tac out of a C130) which really does an awesome job of documenting the action from different perspectives and speeds.  Note when jumping from jets it's not necessary to "jump" the jet wash will pull you out of the aircraft iwhen you get close enough to the door.  A C130 requires you to jump away from the aircraft otherwise you'll spin (which will cause you to rotate on the way down as the twists come out of your lines) or you'll "bump" against the aircraft on the way out.  Cool trivia to some.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fsm2HQE7EE

 

Reposted because I like the soundtrack better in the second one :)

 

Txazz
Txazz 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @majrod  @TKW406  @Old PH2  @shagstar AW, Jumpmaster vid - no no not for me - I just jump out by myself, thank you.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Old PH2  @LauraKinCA  @majrod  @TKW406  @shagstar

 Flinched evertime those pallets went flying past

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @majrod  @TKW406  @Old PH2  @shagstar

 Those vids are totally fun to watch, but I'm sure a bit nerve wracking in the C17 making sure you really are out of the way. No stopping that process once the drogue chute goes.

Old PH2
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 @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @majrod  @TKW406  @shagstar 

Memories of deployments to Puerto Rico, Christ I hated those pallets full of gear.  I guess I knew too much about physics.

ArcticWarrior
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 @LauraKinCA  @majrod  @TKW406  @Old PH2  @shagstar

 Nothing like sharing with cargo, at night. Keep your feet tucked in away from the line!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_tflYu0bfE

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @majrod  @TKW406  @Old PH2  @shagstar

 If someone ever managed to get me up in an airplane with the expressed intent of jumping out of it, that would have been me or worse!

ArcticWarrior
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 @LauraKinCA  @majrod  @TKW406  @Old PH2  @shagstar

 not always that smooth check this one from school, dude dont want to go at the door at 00:43 but he is going either way

http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_958596&feature=iv&src_vid=HumN8FbtUCI&v=IeWVshynShA

 

 

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @majrod  @TKW406  @Old PH2  @shagstar

 Gotcha. This is why I'm not jump master :)

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @LauraKinCA  @majrod  @TKW406  @Old PH2  @shagstar

 No he went last and looked like he was near last on the ground with a reverse PLF. The others you see are the other sticks on the way down.

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @majrod  @TKW406  @Old PH2  @shagstar

 So.... he went out last and was one of the first down?? Pretty cool vid though.

ArcticWarrior
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 @LauraKinCA  @majrod  @TKW406  @Old PH2  @shagstar

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faRX4D3bA_I

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @TKW406  @Old PH2  @LauraKinCA  @shagstar  @majrod

 You just need an RI to show up at 0200 take away the map and ask you where the squad is......

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @majrod  @TKW406  @ArcticWarrior  @Old PH2  @shagstar

 Gravity yes.... and a good shove or boot in the ass out the plane door!

ArcticWarrior
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 @LauraKinCA  @TKW406  @Old PH2  @shagstar  @majrod

 http://www.thehauntedbookshop.com/shop/haunted/035013.html

 

Its a self help book with tests etc so most I would imagine are filled out inside. Mine has in highlighter " Do not measure meters with the yard marker and vice versa"  Must of had an issue with that one !

 

Amazon probably has a ton of good stuff on LandNav

majrod
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 @TKW406  Gravity does a lot of the work ;)

 

@ArcticWarrior  @Old PH2  @LauraKinCA  @shagstar

 

TKW406
TKW406 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @Old PH2 FM 3-25.26: Downloaded    

LANDNAV Tutorial: Saved & Bookmarked    SH21-21: Searching

 

  Shit, by next weekend I should be able to HALO into the Bob Marshall Wilderness and have no problem finding my way out!  Now, if I only knew how to HALO.....

 

@LauraKinCA  @shagstar  @majrod 

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @TKW406  @Old PH2  @shagstar  @majrod

 No go on Amazon. That might be a used book store hunt and better tried in the SE probably. I downloaded the LandNav tutorials PH2 posted, so will start with that.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @LauraKinCA  @TKW406  @Old PH2  @shagstar@majrod 

 I rooted around in my closet and found my SH 21-21 on map reading, still had my Benning Map in it with my notes! It is so designed for the beginner. If you can find one you can proably get one cheap with the map and Protractor for a dollar

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @TKW406  @Old PH2

 Uh, oh... now there should be a @shagstar alert! Boobs has been said out loud.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @TKW406  @LauraKinCA  @Old PH2

 I see vaginas and boobs everywhere, clouds, ink blots, bowl of rice krispies,  the bakery etc- so those tricks worked on me and now I can read a map!

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @TKW406  @LauraKinCA  @Old PH2

 Lol...not that I am aware of

ArcticWarrior
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 @LauraKinCA  @Old PH2  @TKW406

 Drills have a hard job, You have to take raw guys in OSUT and get them up to task in a little more then 3 months, so they break it down to the lowest - it works for most

TKW406
TKW406 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  Does that work with Middle Eastern history as well?

 

@LauraKinCA  @Old PH2 

LauraKinCA
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 @ArcticWarrior  @Old PH2  @TKW406

 Still laughing, but my philosophy is whatever works isn't dumb... it works!

ArcticWarrior
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 @LauraKinCA  @Old PH2  @TKW406

 A kid wasnt getting land nav, Sr Drill cut in " If it was your gf's naked body you would get it right?" and then he explained it and we all got it. Infantry, we arent the brightest in the Army

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @Old PH2  @TKW406

 LOL, I've never thought of it that way when doing my engineering geology thing, but I get your meaning. Some have a lot of trouble translating the contours to 3D. That's why I want to test myself :)

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @TKW406  @LauraKinCA  @Old PH2

 Ha thats Benning Infantry 101 right there!

TKW406
TKW406 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  Now that I understand!  Could have used more analogies like that in high school!

 

 @LauraKinCA  @Old PH2 

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @Old PH2  @LauraKinCA  @TKW406

 thats awesome Ph!   And here we were baggin on high tech!

ArcticWarrior
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 @LauraKinCA  @Old PH2  @TKW406

 When looking at the grid contours/terrain features etc remember its like a womans body, it gives you a 3d visual. Hills, plains, deltas etc -

Old PH2
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 @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @TKW406 A while back I stumbled across a really nice power point with tests and everything, see if I can find it.  Here you go, a full instruction course on land navigation:

http://www.landnavigation.org/Pages/FourParts.aspx

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @Old PH2  @TKW406

 That is a totally cool compass/scale. I geek out a bit on that kind of thing. use engineer's scales constantly.

ArcticWarrior
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 @RedSpecnaz  @LauraKinCA  @Old PH2  @TKW406

 very important - just dont print one out unless it matches the scale. Buy them they are cheap enough !!!!

RedSpecnaz
RedSpecnaz 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @LauraKinCA  @Old PH2  @TKW406 good thing brother

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @LauraKinCA  @Old PH2  @TKW406

 Here is one for you TK courtesy of the ANA, this is what they look like

 

http://www.miltemptech.com.au/product_images/n/041/ana600-v1-large__74616_zoom.jpg

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Old PH2  @TKW406  @ArcticWarrior

 Thanks PH2! I look at maps quite a bit and will check it out to see how much I really don't know.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @TKW406  @Old PH2

  Get either a Military Protractor or Compass with a scale, it will help immensely

Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 6 Like

 @TKW406  @ArcticWarrior Here's a link to the PDF

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-25-26/index_2006.html

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

 @Old PH2  @TKW406

 I RI the kids. Stop on trail. Where are we? What way back to the truck if we have to cut through? 9 out of 10 times they are able to orient the questions

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @TKW406  @Old PH2

 ooops yes, Field Manual

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @Old PH2  @TKW406

 We do it with some Geocaching thrown in, they pick it up quick

TKW406
TKW406 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @ArcticWarrior FM = Field Manual??

 

 @Old PH2 

Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 6 Like

 @TKW406  @ArcticWarrior We began playing at the Orienteering thing when my oldest was 6 and she could understand how to hold a course.  You can do it and make a family project out of it.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

 @TKW406  @Old PH2

 Pick up FM 3-25.26 and learn it inside and backwards as a good start, its not that hard just be patient and thorough

TKW406
TKW406 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 6 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @Old PH2   I tend to say this a lot here, "That's another skill set that I wish I had."  Maybe it's time I start doing something about that, eh?

Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 7 Like

 @TKW406 I recently was working with a young USMC reservist who just participated in a land nav exercise, old school paper, grid UTM, and compass.  I swear I was sporting wood.  Made me proud on so many levels!

RedSpecnaz
RedSpecnaz 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 6 Like

 @TKW406  @Old PH2 old school still alive brother, where without it

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 6 Like

 @Old PH2  @RedSpecnaz  @TKW406

 Compass, beads and paper

 

At night include stars and terrain

Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

 @RedSpecnaz  @TKW406 Time to give them a flash light and another set of hands so they can find their asses?  Andrew is right you just can't live on the battle field without those map and compass skills.

RedSpecnaz
RedSpecnaz 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

 @Old PH2 enter your network and learn different things quiet this is cumbersome and expensive, it is easier to find a man with a long tongue, although experts are working at all levels

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 7 Like

 @Old PH2

 Still need LandNav with a paper map and compass and still need iron sight shooting as part of training.... call me old school

But yeah youre right the tech is great, its a multiplier, its just the "what if" portion of it

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