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Home » Op-Ed » A Green Beret’s In-Depth Analysis of ‘Benghazi: The Definitive Report’

A Green Beret’s In-Depth Analysis of ‘Benghazi: The Definitive Report’

by Blake Miles · February 14, 2013 · Posted In: Op-Ed
benghazi
Below are some key points, personal analysis, and further questions I gathered from reading The Benghazi Report. I hope this will generate some more detailed analysis, conjecture, deductions, and questions. Kudos to Brandon and Jack for putting this together. It was definitely a learning experience. [Quotes from the book are in bold.]

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  • PREVIEW – Benghazi: The Definitive Report
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“The contract with February 17 was allowed to lapse prior to the 9/ 11/ 12 attack because the militia no longer wished to be seen protecting Americans in Benghazi.“
-This should have been a major indicator. When did the contract lapse? How high on the priority list was correcting this situation?

“All told, the handful of Americans would kill just under a hundred enemy attackers.“
-Didn’t hear much about these numbers in the news. Important note: the assaulters gave up the rough equivalent of a bunch of pawns to take out a rook, bishop, and two knights. Painful loss, simply put.

“Did Ansar Al-Sharia get inspired after seeing the Egyptians storming the US embassy in Cairo the day before? Did they get offended by an internet video? Did they choose 9/ 11 as the date for the attack because of the obvious symbolism? Maybe. But another contributing factor was JSOC operations in Libya, which kicked the hornets’ nest and pissed off the militia.“
-Logical deduction. Makes sense to me.

“With the left hand not talking to the right, it was impossible for Stevens to see or predict the JSOC expedition into Libya in late summer of 2012, which ultimately led to the attack on the consulate.”
-Main explanation within this report as to the “why” behind the attacks. This seems logical, though the weapon transfers variable would have to play a role to some degree. Whether it played a major role or minor is a very serious question which I doubt we will have answers to in the near future.

“In total, seven Americans with four local militia guards were left to promote diplomacy in one of the most hostile and unstable places on earth.”
-”We had the correct number of assets in Benghazi on the night of 9/11,”-State Department official Charlene Lamb. Her testimony made my blood boil.

“It’s worth noting that the local guards hired by the State Department were armed only with bats, not with firearms of any sort; it’s no surprise they fled.“Hillary Clinton
-Assets also apply not only to personnel, but equipment as well; yet another Dept. of State failure. I suppose it ‘doesn’t make a difference‘ in the eyes of some.

“With tacit support from Michael Vickers and James Clapper, Brennan works to exploit a number of loopholes and utilize the Obama administration’s creative interpretations of Title 10 and Title 50 powers to launch operations across North Africa and the Middle East, with Admiral McRaven no doubt happy to be along for the ride.”
-Here begins the accountability portion of the report. John Brennan receives a healthy amount, and it seems well deserved.

“Because John Brennan is running his own private war, he is not going through the normal chain of command, and operations are not deconflicted. Ambassador Stevens, for instance, was not read on to the JSOC operations in Libya. He was kept in the dark and ultimately killed in a retaliation that he never could have seen coming. “
-If the CIA is not gathering intelligence on potential attacks via HUMINT or SIGINT, who the hell is? Was there any of that going on? There had to have been a catalyst, even if the bulk of the assault didn’t take place until hours after the initial breach. There is always a thread running somewhere. Our intelligence assets were either kept completely in the dark by the coordinators of this assault, or someone dropped the ball.

“In a Senate hearing after the attack, the director of the National Counterterrorism Center, Matthew Olsen, stated that there was no evidence of “significant advanced planning or coordination for this attack.” This is a viewpoint shared by Matthew VanDyke, who told Business Insider, “This was not a commando style raid, that’s ridiculous…” The problem with this thesis is that further investigation has clearly shown that there was no protest outside the consulate prior to or during the attack.“
-Again, if they were gathering any HUMINT or SIGINT of any measurable value, or there should have been SOME sort of a blip on the radar that something was in the works. My estimation: this was pure spin from the administration.

“As the Global War on Terror enters the next phase in North Africa and elsewhere, we can only hold our breath and wonder which of our friends will be killed in the next debacle.“
-The next chapter looks to be a disturbing one. I do not look forward to it growing.

“The last thing the White House wanted was journalists digging into what was really going on in Libya, namely, secret weapons transfers from Libya to Syria, a program that remains a peripheral issue in the story of the Benghazi attack. More importantly, they did not want the press investigating the true motivations behind the assault.”
-This stood out as the most valuable piece of the puzzle I gathered from this report. This picture cleared up the majority of questions I had about this entire debacle.

“His willingness to stand up to his CIA boss and do what was right is an example of true American heroism. Glen Doherty ran toward the sound of gunfire, and his CIA and JSOC comrades could have waited it out in Tripoli. Instead, they practically commandeered a local plane and forced their way into the fight. Their presence and the JSOC element’s access to the Predator drone ultimately drove the decision to evacuate the Americans.”
-One of the more sobering elements of the report, but definitely a bright light amid a backdrop of blackness.

Standing Questions:

  • Is the CIA or JSOC capable/willing to run operations without knowledge or consent of the Dept. of State?
  • What quantifiable actions has the Department of State done to fix their operations abroad?
  • What was the original intelligence source that referenced the YouTube video? How did that become the assumed reason for the attack in the State Department?
  • Did the absence of executive authority hamper the speed at which assets could have provided support?

My bottom line: The continued lie about the video was intended to be discovered as a blatant lie in order to distract anyone with the power to hold the administration accountable from the darker activities being conducted. The real important question is how far up the chain these ‘darker activities’ go. Fortunately for the White House, the majority of the media is too prostrated to actually go through the process of ‘journalism’ and discover questions like these. I have little to no confidence that anyone will be held accountable for what occurred on this dark day.

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FrankJohnson
FrankJohnson 5pts

Agreed, no one will be held accountable for what happened.  With both obama and Clinton AWOL during the crises time it is no wonder no attempts were made to rescue the doomed men.  Who would risk the wrath of either?

southpaw11
southpaw11 5pts

After completing Benghazi: The Definitive Report... I realized my resentful political rants about the Administration, more or less murdering Ambassador Stevens, S. Smith, T. Woods, & G. Doherty were not only media stained... They were flat out incorrect. This operation rippled all the way to the top and stemmed far beyond Obama. The Editors at sofrep.com, B. Webb & J. Murphy, give the reader a timeline that begins years before the Benghazi massacre. Leaving the audience to ponder... Is the Benghazi massacre the tip of iceberg and what devastations will unfold in Our Nations future? The nobility and courage Our SEALs embody is what Our Nation is forged on. Brandon and Jack did a phenomenal job without exposing sacred military detail. While leaving the audience to ponder... “The lesson to Americans is clear in this case: take what you hear with a grain of salt and always question the narratives, and the backgrounds of the authors whose stories are being sold to you. Even if it is coming from your favorite source of trusted news. None of these outlets constitutes a paragon of truthfulness.” Excerpt From: Brandon Webb & Jack Murphy. “Benghazi.” HarperCollins, 2013-02-01. iBooks. This material may be protected by copyright. Check out this book on the iBookstore: https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/benghazi/id596503720?mt=11

majrod
majrod 5pts

Interview tonight on Hannity

majrod
majrod 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

Saw the clip.  Fox could have done a better job of sequencing the model action with what Jack and Brandon were saying.  Otherwise it was good.

 

Glad they were able to highlight Ty's role in rescuing the folks at the consulate.

AUNITEDPEOPLE
AUNITEDPEOPLE 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @majrod Yeah, I made the same observation. I also was hoping that the segment would have been twice as long as it was, so they could have given a more detailed explanation of what transpired and more in depth analysis about the reasons behind the attack.

 

I'm glad Hannity gave them some air time, I just wish it would have been more...

AUNITEDPEOPLE
AUNITEDPEOPLE 5pts

 @RVN SF VET  @majrod  I understand all of those things and I realize that any opportunity for Islamic extremist to launch an attack on a fairly soft target, especially on 9/11, is always beneficial to the enemy. If this is really all there is to it, the the DOS should be ultimately responsible. However, the book points to the actions of Brennan being more of the reason, unless I am reading too much into it. I know that Brennan is in charge of the drone program, so there is that, but it just seemed to me that the book alluded to something underneath all of what we know involving Brennan. Am I wrong on this?

RVN SF VET
RVN SF VET 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

@majrod @AUNITEDPEOPLE I had thought it was several things that we've talked about. First, our pursuit of AQIM and AQ HVTs by drone and bullet. Foreigners are not welcome in Benghazi. And it was 9/11 and Cairo set an example - the riot, not the cause of the riot.

RVN SF VET
RVN SF VET 5pts

@majrod @AUNITEDPEOPLE

majrod
majrod 5pts

 @AUNITEDPEOPLE  Radical islamists are going to attack us whenever and wherever there is an opportunity.

 

911 is an important day in the struggle.  it wasn't an accident that the attack happened on that day.  AQ would absolutely love to have Benghazi just as well as any other location.  Does McDonald's ever say no to a new location?

 

The central struggle is against Radical islam.  AQ is a big player.  It's not the only one.

 

Muslim outreach, open hands, apologizing for past offenses real or imagined don't help our case if that's the majority or external image of our response.  There has to be a stick or spine and clear explanation of where, when and why we'll use that stick and how it's in Islam's interest to work with us. 

 

AUNITEDPEOPLE
AUNITEDPEOPLE 5pts

 @majrod True enough. I don't believe I claimed that it was the sole factor, but just a piece of the puzzle. If I did claim that somewhere in these many threads, then I was probably drunk! lol

 

Also, if they were just running guns to Syria, you'd think AQ would be OK with that, since AQ has a lot of personnel on the ground there, or so I have heard.

 

So, what do you postulate was the primary factor in this attack? Symbolic? A purge of all Western influences of the region so AQ could take over? All of the above? None of the above? Or was there more 'shadow war' stuff going on there that has not been revealed?

majrod
majrod 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @AUNITEDPEOPLE  I'm not a fan of portraying gun running as THE reason behind the attack.  Doesn't make sense.

 

Gun running doesn't explain the long record of attacks against american interests.  Gun running doesn't explain why the attack happened on 911.  It doesn't addres the involvement of AQ in the attack.  If gun running was the cause wouldn't an attack against the annex or a simultaneous attack make more sense?  Then there are the attacks against the Brits and the Red Cross that drove them from benghazi.  Where they gun running also?

 

Jack in another thread stated he felt gun running was one of several factors.

 

Gun running is sexy for the conspiracy theorists.  I don't doubt it was an aggravating factor but it was nowhere near the primary one and pursuing guns as the cause is as distracting as blaming the video for causing the attack.

 

 

 

RVN SF VET
RVN SF VET 5pts

 @majrod Who will be interviewed? You?

 

majrod
majrod 5pts

 @RVN SF VET  Oh heck no.  They aren't that desparate  :)

 

Jack and maybe Brandon I think

hjw1dr
hjw1dr 5pts

 @RVN SF VET  @majrod  Thanks for the info.  both

RVN SF VET
RVN SF VET 5pts

 @hjw1dr  @majrod A text preview is at http://tinyurl.com/bz9fqmm

majrod
majrod 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @hjw1dr  @RVN SF VET

 

yes Hannity of Fox News

hjw1dr
hjw1dr 5pts

 @RVN SF VET  @majrod  It's on Hannity on Fox News? If so, I can get it off of XM radio. (I don't watch Cable TV anymore) but can listen to the radio if needed.

 

 

RVN SF VET
RVN SF VET 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @majrod Thanks, I'll have to get it off the Internet.

Txazz
Txazz 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

Kerry Took More Security on Trip to Arlington, Va., Than State Dept. Posted in Benghazi 

The State Department ARB report revealed that the department rotated junior DS agents with “relatively little or no” overseas experience through its Benghazi mission.

“For a time, more experienced RSOs were sent out on longer term TDYs, but even that appeared to diminish after June 2012, exactly at the time the security environment in Benghazi was deteriorating further," said the report. "It bears emphasizing, however, that the Board found the work done by these often junior DS agents to be exemplary. But given the threat environment and with very little operational oversight from more experienced, senior colleagues, combined with an under-resourced security platform, these agents were not well served by their leadership in Washington.”

The ARB report noted that at the time of the Sept. 11, 2012 attacks “Benghazi remained a lawless town.”

All five of the DS agents who were in Benghazi on Sept. 11 survived. However, one was severely wounded by the same mortar attack that killed former Navy SEAL Tyrone Woods and Glen Doherty, who worked for the CIA, and another suffered a severe laceration of his arm when trying to rescue Amb. Stevens and State Department Information Management Officer Sean Smith from a burning building at the State Department compound.

As CNSNews.com previously reported, as of Jan. 30, the State Department had not given the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee access to these DS agents.

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/kerry-took-more-security-trip-arlington-va-state-dept-posted-benghazi

marbito11
marbito11 5pts

so, what kind of JSOC operations were being conducted? who exatcly was involved? devgru? delta? what about that rumor that delta was on stanby in italy?

AUNITEDPEOPLE
AUNITEDPEOPLE 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

Good article and great questions that need to be answered (God willing, we will get some).

 

I have an additional question that no one seems to have addressed so far (although I could be wrong). No one, not even the members of Congress have yet to question or see the debriefs of the survivors of this attack. I believe they were taken to a base in Germany and I also believe that I heard that the FBI did the debriefings, but nothing has been released.

 

So, to me, this is a major issue that needs to be addressed. Who are the survivors, who debriefed them and where are the transcripts of these debriefs?

Txazz
Txazz 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @AUNITEDPEOPLE Yes, L. Graham even commented on Bret Baiers Special Report last evening about that very thing.  It has been addressed already.  Keep in mind they are all 'three letter' survivors.

AUNITEDPEOPLE
AUNITEDPEOPLE 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @Txazz Yeah, I saw his scathing remarks last night. It's good he's on the warpath, so hopefully that will lead to something. I was just attempting to add to the dialogue here...

 

I understand that fact, and I understand that we the people might never know how they are or ever here what they have to say, but I do believe that the intelligence commitee's of the Congress should, at the minimum, have some insight into their debriefings.

AUNITEDPEOPLE
AUNITEDPEOPLE 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Txazz Yeah, I'm pretty tired of a hand full of people asking serious questions and the MSM and DC just seems to ignore them, hoping they will go away. Thankfully we have people like Brandon, Jack and Sen. Graham staying on their ass, stoking the fires of truth.

Txazz
Txazz 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @AUNITEDPEOPLE We are all ready to rip walls out.

wannabearmyteen
wannabearmyteen 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

What happen to executing individuals for espionage-related activities? 

Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts

 @wannabearmyteen We don't have the millions it would take to fund the defense, feed and house, and pay the court system workers for all the work a death penalty would generate.  Better off letting the convicts take care of him. 

ajkmidget96
ajkmidget96 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

So a JSOC rescue team was sent from Tripoli?

RVN SF VET
RVN SF VET 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @ajkmidget96 No, read.

ajkmidget96
ajkmidget96 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @RVN SF VET I did.

"CIA and JSOC comrades could have waited it out in Tripoli. Instead, they practically commandeered a local plane and forced their way into the fight. Their presence and the JSOC element’s access to the Predator drone ultimately drove the decision to evacuate the Americans.”

RVN SF VET
RVN SF VET 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @JackMurphyRGR You may recall that the Libyan "Captain" (Militia) who was the initial source of all information about the attack on the Annex and the arrival of the "8 Marines." He is the one who described the impact of the first 6 and then possibly 2 more mortar impacts. He described one man being blown off the roof of the Annex. He also said that the compound attackers had set up road blocks at key intersections. He said that he was responding to a request from Tripoli for Libyan government assistance - allegedly. He is the one who said that he had been provided with a lower number of paks to transport and then didn't have enough trucks. His comments suggested that a 3rd man was killed at the Annex, but he could have been referring to Smith.

JackMurphyRGR
JackMurphyRGR moderator 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @RVN SF VET Those are some very interesting questions.  I have some answers but need confirmation first.

RVN SF VET
RVN SF VET 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

Jackmurphyrgr. ajkmidget96 .  Man, I believe it. We can't have our case officers carrying heavy things. Nonetheless, he went too. I sure would like to know what held them up at the Benghazi airport. You mention nothing about the militia which allegedly supplied vehicles to get everybody back to the airport. If the ambassador's body had to be ransomed, how did the money get to the hospital or was it cash on delivery?  Probably  COD.

 

JackMurphyRGR
JackMurphyRGR moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @RVN SF VET  @ajkmidget96 And as I understand it, a Case Officer who had Glen carrying a rucksack with high six figures in US currency to pay their way.

RVN SF VET
RVN SF VET 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @ajkmidget96 "JSOC rescue team" The Tripoli CIA GRS folks plus 2 JSOC personnel who volunteered to join them does not a JSOC team make. It makes a bunch of courageous volunteers.

StormR
StormR 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

Blake, what about the role of the career bureaucrats in this tragedy?  It sounds as if more silo building than cooperation was going and that all top management were culpable.  Agree?

JRMayII
JRMayII 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

Excellent article about a sad event in American history.

MR151
MR151 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 

“'All told, the handful of Americans would kill just under a hundred  enemy attackers.“ -Didn’t hear much about these numbers in the  news. Important note: the assaulters gave up the rough equivalent of a bunch of  pawns to take out a rook, bishop, and two knights. Painful loss, simply put."

 

Doesn't matter to them Blake. Don't you know they're perfectly happy to be cannon fodder since they're all going to "Paradise" and getting laid by 72 virgins? 

 

 

 

“'In total, seven Americans with four local militia guards were left  to promote diplomacy in one of the most hostile and unstable places on  earth.” -”We had the correct number of assets in Benghazi on the  night of 9/11,”-State Department official Charlene Lamb. Her testimony made my blood  boil."

 

Agreed. Charlene Lamb and 4-5 other bureaucratic pinheads who as I like to put it just sat in their DC offices and played their fiddles while Benghazi burned.

 

Would love to airdrop them & Hillary over Libya or Somalia somewhere and then use some drones to see how long they last against the local savages. When Hillary screams for help, I'd just say "What difference does it make?"  

 

hjw1dr
hjw1dr 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

"Is the CIA or JSOC capable/willing to run operations without knowledge or consent of the Dept. of State? What quantifiable actions has the Department of State done to fix their operations abroad?"

 

Yes, and furthermore, if the Dept of State has no knowledge or consent to the operations by CIA or JSOC, then how long will it be before our allies too are caught in crossfire or blowback on one of these operations? I can see a great deal of difficulties on this as far as our reputation with our allies, if that happens.  

RedWanderer
RedWanderer 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

For anyone really interested in this subject, turn on Fox right now....you can see a media shit storm starting on Bret Baer's show "Special Report"......he just spent 13 minutes hammering the issue from several angles....and at about 6:35 EST I expect to see more.....

shooten
shooten 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

@RedWanderer I hope it gets traction outside of Fox. As much as I admire Bret Baer and his coverage of this, unless the MSM starts covering, it won't get the attention of the American people that it deserves.

ProudNannyof3
ProudNannyof3 5pts

@wardog6actual Will read this! God help us! This is an impeachable offense!!

usapatriotonthemove
usapatriotonthemove 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

Good stuff....gotta make time to read the full report.  Thanks for the overview, you guys rock.

Tango9
Tango9 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 15 Like

"In the beginning hours of this whole thing I recall feeling that these folks had been offered as a sacrificial lamb.  I still get that feeling, the background deals and pursuit of both information and targets outside of the normal channels reads like a Hollywood b-movie."

 

brother, it smells the same to me.  Ty and Glen (and not excluding the ambassador or Sean)... that loss is still an open wound.  Brandon said not to feel sorry for Glen, and I don't.... I'm just fucking livid at those on our side as well as the enemy that he was taken before I could really get to know the man.  Call it selfish, but when you meet someone who is better that you are at this or that, you gravitate toward them, and that was Glen.  And all those fuckers stole him from us.  It's pure selfishness, because I know that if there'd been time, he'd have made me better, and I'm pissed.

 

I view the congressional testimony as a joke.  Everyone is just covering their ass, there is no moral courage, there is no integrity.  Our nation is led by cowards.

-BLACK-
-BLACK- 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Tango9  PUSH  BROTHER!!

Kendoist4162
Kendoist4162 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @Tango9 Amen brother. I'm so glad I found SOFREP. Living in Cali had made me doubt humanity for a while. Then I found y'all. I am home. Rock on.

-BLACK-
-BLACK- 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @Kendoist4162  I just got into a pissing match with a former Marine over the book. I asked if he was going to buy it and I was met with "what are their sources and why should I believe them" ...All I heard after that was blah, blah. snort , snort, suckle suckle.  I love my fellow vets but tnot all of them are worth saving.  I guess his fakebook page and the image of himself that he wants us to believe are more important thant the cold hard truth.   Fuckin douche bag.  Cali is filled with fuckin douche bags and many of them think so highly of themselves that they need to get permits from the FAA.    Funny thing is, none of the know it all fuckers will spend a day with me in the sun running in plates with a gun. 

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @BLACK ACTUAL   @Kendoist4162

 So you are talking about REMFs? What do you expect. If those guys are also in Cali, even worse attitudes.

Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 17 Like

Blake, I greatly appreciate your reasoned post.  In the beginning hours of this whole thing I recall feeling that these folks had been offered as a sacrificial lamb.  I still get that feeling, the background deals and pursuit of both information and targets outside of the normal channels reads like a Hollywood b-movie.  When our clandestine service appears to be "amateur  hour" not only do we lose credibility we loose American lives.  FUCK YOU VERY MUCH for that, whoever made this mess happen.  You and those who have covered your tracks have preformed a disservice to all those who have served and who currently serve our nation with honor.  Now our intelligence community lives in this miasma of "it's so secret we can't tell the president."  I'm not an adolescent fanboy, I have no posters of JASON F'n BOURNE in my room that I have wet dreams over.  I am righteously PISSED THE FUCK OFF.

 

I will not join the idiocracy that is the "Occupy/Annonymous" movement I think Julian Assange should be extradited and held for espionage against the US.  The guys in Gitmo, send them to Algeria and see what kinda info they can get out of them.  Transparency is this current virus that eats it's young.  Some things must be secret, but there must be accountability.  We DO NOT NEED TO KNOW OF EVERY SECRET MISSION, WE DO NEED ACCOUNTABILITY!

 

Rant over, sorry about that....     

TheArgent
TheArgent 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @Old PH2 Not to be flippant, OP, but Assange is not the one who should be extradited. He is not an American citizen, was not on American soil and the sensitive data was not stored on US-based systems. He is not beholden to American law in any way and could not in any legally meaningful way be labeled a spy.

 

What I find so strange is that Assange is scapegoated, while there were FIVE major newspapers involved in distributing the majority of the sensitive data to the global public, one of which is the New York Times.  This IS an American organization, on American soil and probably be prosecuted. Why they are not, is anyone's guess. My guess would be that it has something to do with their political clout. Assange, with his narcissistic tendencies, made a better villain. The truth of the matter is that his SUPPLIER was the only person who is rightfully locked up right now, the infamous Bradley Manning.

 

Sorry. Had to say that. Apologies if I went off-topic too far.

 

May I also say that this report is intriguing. Thanks Jack and Brandon!

TheArgent
TheArgent 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Old PH2 "probably CAN be prosecuted" - typo, my bad.

TheArgent
TheArgent 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @shooten As far as I can tell, thats exactly what they did. I doubt he'll get out anytime soon. He was a very emotionally and mentally disturbed individual though. How he got where he did, and how he stayed there without any warning signs going off somewhere, is beyond me.

shooten
shooten 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @TheArgent Good point.  I also believe that it's telling that we haven't charged him with anything in absentia.  I hope they throw the book at Bradley Manning.  You have a good point about the NYT as well.

TheArgent
TheArgent 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @shooten  There could be several reasons why the two cases are not relatable. The most critical two reasons I can imagine is that firstly smuggling drugs is illegal in BOTH countries (Assange didnt break any laws in the country where he was residing, I believe Sweden). Secondly both nations are willing to prosecute and apparently extradite people over these crimes. Theres a big difference over being able to prosecute someone, and WANTING to. But your thoughts do seem to be in line with at least SOME of Assange's own thinking, because he specifically went to a country that didnt have an extradition agreement with the US (Peru, if memory serves).

shooten
shooten 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

@TheArgent if he conspired with Bradley Manning to bring secrets out of the US, how can that not be an extraditable offense. I'm not a lawyer but I would hope that our laws have that one covered. It happens with South and Central American and drug smugglers all of the time. The smugglers are not in the US but are using telephones and the Internet to communicate. Again I'm not a lawyer...

TheArgent
TheArgent 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @shooten   The simple fact of jurisdiction remains. American law does not apply to non-American citizens not on American soil. Old PH2 made some very good arguments and even those arguments are of limited use. You'd have to be a little more elaborate in describing what kind of conspiracy you believe the US can arrest Assange for...

shooten
shooten 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

@TheArgent @Old PH2 I'm pretty sure they can charge Assange with conspiracy to start.

TheArgent
TheArgent 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Old PH2 Hehe very recognisable. Im a sponge for little facts and tidbits as well.

Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @TheArgent I'm just a fast read, and a research junkie.  Maybe a little OCD and ADD in there too.  Ask my wife sometime, "Why do you know that?"  Is a regular phrase in our home. 

TheArgent
TheArgent 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Old PH2 I figured you for a paralegal maybe, having those applicable legal codes as fast as you did. I just dabble, myself. Purely out of personal interest.

Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @TheArgent Sit though court probably four times a year as a witness, prepared many image treatments for Article 32 hearings but no, just a run of the mill Security contractor.  Although I was a military photographer in my past life. 

TheArgent
TheArgent 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @Old PH2 "wasn't on the terror list <at that time> " (sorry, missed that)

TheArgent
TheArgent 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @Old PH2 Ah! That explains why I heard someone make the argument to declare Wikileaks a terrorist organization! They were, however, not on the international list of terrorist organizations at that time. I dont believe they ever made it onto that list either. To put, what is essentially a news organization, on the list of terrorist organizations is a really REALLY big step and requires quite a bit of supporting evidence such as suspicious funding and spending, et cetera. The point is moot though, because Wikileaks wasnt on the terror list and you can't do backsies.

 

Regardless, the formation of that law has a few holes that Assange would slip through. For one, he is not a national of the US or an alien lawfully admitted (he wasnt on US soil). He is also not a stateless person remaining on US soil.

 

Then it speaks on where the purported crime was committed and thats sketchy: it didnt occur whole or in part in the US (well, the NY Times did, but thats a different defendant altogether). You COULD say that he aided and abetted Manning, who DOES fall under this law, but that requires intent from Manning's side and that is not the case. Manning gave Assange the data and said "Do whatever you like". The distribution was all Assange's idea so there is only limited collusion. But it doesnt really matter because Assange doesnt meet the requirements as to whom the law applies to.

 

Your argumentation is as solid as it gets though. I've seen all these arguments before on the CSFI - Law & Policy group on Linkedin. There's some great Cyber legal experts there and they said the same thing. Do you have a legal background, Old?

 

Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @TheArgent Arguably the last part of that section that talks about (a) or conspires with any person over whom jurisdiction exists under this paragraph to commit an offense under subsection (a).  Applies to 'anyone involved' in the conspiracy to disseminate information or render aid to a terror organization. 

Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @TheArgent

 

But ultimately I think Mr. Assange falls into the legislation that defines material support of a tertorist organization specifically the part that speaks about extraterritorial jurisdiction:

 

This covers US Citizens who may have secret materials.

18 USC § 798 - Disclosure of classified information

 

18 USC § 2339B - Providing material support or resources to designated foreign terrorist organizations

(d) Extraterritorial Jurisdiction.— (1) In general.— There is jurisdiction over an offense under subsection (a) if— (A) an offender is a national of the United States (as defined in section 101(a)(22) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101 (a)(22))) or an alien lawfully admitted for permanent residence in the United States (as defined in section 101(a)(20) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101 (a)(20))); (B) an offender is a stateless person whose habitual residence is in the United States; (C) after the conduct required for the offense occurs an offender is brought into or found in the United States, even if the conduct required for the offense occurs outside the United States; (D) the offense occurs in whole or in part within the United States; (E) the offense occurs in or affects interstate or foreign commerce; or (F) an offender aids or abets any person over whom jurisdiction exists under this paragraph in committing an offense under subsection (a) or conspires with any person over whom jurisdiction exists under this paragraph to commit an offense under subsection (a). (2) Extraterritorial jurisdiction.— There is extraterritorial Federal jurisdiction over an offense under this section.

TheArgent
TheArgent 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Old PH2 Ah that is indeed an interesting argument to make. However I do believe that jurisdiction still applies and this is part of US, not international law (as far as I know). It is of course well within anyone's rights to Expect or even Require someone to reciprocate, but I dont think thats a legal method. You could probably make this case if you can enforce it (i.e. if he would be on US soil at the time of the 'act', shall we call it). As it stands though, for allied nations (in this case I think Australia) to enforce such a foreign law upon one of their own citizens would cause an uproar as well. The US could probably lash out diplomatically to any allied nation that was hosting Assange at the time, and they probably did, but still failed.

Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @TheArgent Sorry, that was from the wrong site.  Give me a minute.

Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @TheArgent I felt that the outline of the State secrets act would have allowed a prosecution due to the fact of reciprocity, we are charged with maintaining the state secrets of our allies and require the same of them.

Protection of State Secrets

§ 12. Organisation of protection of state secrets

(1) The protection of state secrets shall be ensured by the following:

1) compliance with the procedure for access to state secrets, and ensuring INFOSEC;

(12.02.2003 entered into force 01.04.2003 - RT I 2003, 23, 147)

2) compliance with and ensurance of the requirements established for the processing of state secrets and classified media;

3) protection of state secrets against unlawful disclosure;

4) imposition of criminal or disciplinary liability for violations of the procedure for access to state secrets or the requirements for processing state secrets and classified media, and for the unlawful disclosure of state secrets.

(2) The procedure for the protection of state secrets shall be established by a regulation of the Government of the Republic. The procedure for the protection of state secrets shall provide:

1) requirements for agencies, institutions and legal persons which possess state secrets in order to organise protection of such state secrets and for INFOSEC;

(12.02.2003 entered into force 01.04.2003 - RT I 2003, 23, 147)

2) the specific procedure for the processing of state secrets and classified media;

3) requirements for the storage spaces, delivery, transporters and transportation of classified media;

4) requirements for the organisation of the work of the security authorities and the General Staff of the Defence Forces (§§ 16 and 161) upon exercise of supervision imposed thereon by this Act;

(12.02.2003 entered into force 01.04.2003 - RT I 2003, 23, 147)

5) the specific order for the protection of classified information of foreign states, and the specific order for the issue of certificates of access to classified information of foreign states.

(06.05.2004 entered into force 20.05.2004 - RT I 2004, 43, 300)

(3) The Minister of Internal Affairs shall approve the work schedule for supervision over state secret protection exercised by the Security Police Board and the rules of procedure of the committee formed in order to exercise supervision.

(05.12.2001 entered into force 06.01.2002 - RT I 2001, 100, 643)

§ 121. Protection of classified information of foreign states

Classified information of foreign states shall be protected and processed on the same basis and pursuant to the same procedure as state secrets with the corresponding level of classification, unless otherwise provided by an international agreement or this Act.

(06.05.2004 entered into force 20.05.2004 - RT I 2004, 43, 300)

 

Mr. Assange had the duty to keep those secrets as spelled out here:

§ 14. Duties of persons with right of access to state secrets

(1) A person with the right of access to state secrets is required to:

1) maintain the confidentiality of state secrets which become known to him or her;

2) protect classified media in his or her possession from disclosure and access by unauthorised persons;

3) notify immediately the head of an agency or legal person or a person authorised by the head to organise the protection of state secrets, and the corresponding agency which performs security checks of any person attempting in any way to obtain unlawful access to state secrets;

4) notify immediately the head of an agency or legal person or a person authorised by the head to organise the protection of state secrets, and the corresponding agency which performs security checks of each violation of the requirements of this Act or legislation issued on the basis thereof which becomes known to him or her;

5) notify immediately the corresponding agency which performs security checks of any change in his or her name, residence, seat or postal address.

(2) In addition to the provisions of subsection (1) of this section, a legal person is required to immediately notify an agency which performs security checks of the following changes:

1) merger, division or transformation;

2) changes in the membership of the management board or the supervisory board;

3) bankruptcy or liquidation proceedings commenced with respect to the legal person;

4) changes in the ownership if the holding of a new owner forms at least 5 per cent;

5) proprietary obligations which have arisen and which exceed the average one month's turnover during the preceding financial year.

(05.12.2001 entered into force 06.01.2002 - RT I 2001, 100, 643)

§ 15. Duties of agencies, institutions and legal persons which possess state secrets

(1) The head of an agency, institution or legal person which possesses state secrets is required to appoint a person and, if necessary, the deputy of the person who shall organise the protection of state secrets and be responsible for compliance with the requirements established by this Act and legislation issued on the basis thereof, and determine positions where access to state secrets is a prerequisite for employment.

(2) The responsible person specified in subsection (1) of this section shall be directly subordinate to the head of the agency, institution or legal person in issues concerning organisation of the protection of state secrets. If necessary, a structural unit organising the protection of state secrets shall be formed.

(3) In addition to other duties provided for in this Act, agencies, institutions or legal persons which possess state secrets are required, within their competence provided by law and in agreement with the Security Police Board and the General Staff of the Defence Forces, to establish instructions arising from this Act and legislation issued on the basis thereof to regulate access to state secrets and the processing and protection of state secrets.

TheArgent
TheArgent 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Old PH2 Oh no, you're probably quite correct on the extradition agreements, but as far as I am aware, non-US citizens are not beholden to US law, even when they are citizens of allied states. He did not break any laws, in fact I believe he did not even technically break any US laws. Therefore he cannot be arrested and subsequently extradited. Nor can he be labeled as an enemy combatant because he is a private citizen and did not actively engage in, or assist with, any physical violence against US troops. (I know you didnt make that particular argument but I have seen it before.)

 

Im not a lawyer, and certainly not a member of any US bar association but im fairly confident that all the above stated is correct. This is also what makes Cyber Warfare so interesting; how can you determine an enemy combatant when he is sitting behind a computerscreen half a world away? He could be sitting in a completely different physical location than the nation he is fighting for, thus pulling an innocent third party (nation) into the fight when you retaliate.

 

Of course, you can't really say Assange got away with it. He got framed for rape (I mean come on, the timing of that was at least auspicious AND the story was full of holes) and is probably the most politically hated person in the world. He will never be safe and he knows it. I wouldnt trade places with him in a million years.

Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @TheArgent I was working under the assumption that we had extradition agreements with England, Australia, New Zealand and most of the European union therefore rendering his act of dispersal a defacto act of espionage.  I agree Brad Manning should be making Big rocks into little rocks in Ft. Leavenworth until he's too old to fart.  The media outlets are equally accountable, agree with you entirely. 

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