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Home » Op-Ed » Problems: SOF Out Of Maidan Wardak?

Problems: SOF Out Of Maidan Wardak?

by Isaiah Burkhart · February 26, 2013 · Posted In: Op-Ed
SOF Out Of Maidan Wardak?
The allegations of beheadings and kidnappings by US Forces has caused Hamid Karzai, the Afghan president, to order a withdrawal of US special operations forces from the “key” Afghani province of Maidan Wardak. These allegations bring up a myriad of questions about the future of SOF in Wardak.

Related Posts
  • SOF Running Amok in Wardak? No, Not Really
  • Wardak: ANSF Turn on SOF?
  • ST6 Rescues Hostage Held by Taliban, One Friendly KIA

What is the potential blowback of losing SOF in Wardak?

What advantages do insurgents have if SOF does leave the province?

What potential advantage could this bring to SOF in the future?

There is the real possibility that extremist forces are behind the allegations and have been the ones kidnapping and killing the local populace over the last couple of months. This is not the first set of allegations to come out of Wardak. Back on 14 January 2013 a video surfaced claiming that a NATO airstrike had killed 16 local men, women, and children of the province.

Wardak Video

Screenshot of alleged airstrike video

Due to its proximity to the capital city of Kabul, Wardak (the capital of Maiden Wardak, Maidan Shahr, is 35km from Kabul) has been a strategic stronghold for anti-coalition forces throughout the last decade. The timing of the allegations coupled with the withdraw of coalition forces could further reinstate Taliban and al-Qaeda forces back into Kabul.

One of the main goals of US Special Forces in the Wardak province has been to train the Afghan Local Police. Without the guidance and instruction that these forces need, they could potentially be outsmarted and outgunned by the enemy. The work and infrastructure that has taken many years to build could be for nothing if SOF are removed from the resistive province.

As most of NATO and US Forces withdraw from the country over the next two years, SOF will stay and continue raids against HVTs throughout the country for the foreseeable future. If SOF was removed from the province it “could” offer an advantage in the long-term outlook of capturing high value targets in Afghanistan.

If it was Taliban/al-Qaeda/Haqqani forces who created the allegations, then they could believe that their plan of removing SOF from the province had worked. This might cause extremist leaders throughout the country to lower their guard and seek refuge within the province. If this were to happen it could play into the hands of SOF units in Afghanistan. Instead of the constant “cat and mouse” game that has been played over the last 12 years, the potential for large multi-branch SOF raids to sweep the province clean could be a future possibility.

As it stands, SOF is still in Wardak and will remain until official word comes down to “exit the premises.”

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About The Author

Isaiah Burkhart

I served in 3rd Battalion 75th Ranger Regiment from 2003-2008. Almost four years of the time spent in 3/75 was spent in the sniper section. I am a graduate of US Army Airborne School, US Army Ranger School, US Army Sniper School, Special Forces Sniper Course, and the US Marine Corps Summer Mountain Scout Sniper Course. I have competed in the US Army International Sniper Competition as well as the US Army Small Arms Championships on three separate occasions. I currently live in Corvallis, Oregon and hold a Bachelors of Science in Biology from Oregon State University.

Related Posts

  • SOF Running Amok in Wardak? No, not really.

    SOF Running Amok in Wardak? No, Not Really

  • ANSF

    Wardak: ANSF Turn on SOF?

  • Doctor

    ST6 Rescues Hostage Held by Taliban, One Friendly KIA

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Txazz
Txazz 5pts

Kerry Defends Karzai’s 'Legitimate Evaluations' of ISAF After Karzai Kicks Out U.S. Special Forces

OMG!  So it begins . .

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/kerry-defends-karzai-s-legitimate-evaluations-isaf-after-karzai-kicks-out-us-special

Kim l
Kim l 5pts

@Txazz PATHETIC !

AUNITEDPEOPLE
AUNITEDPEOPLE 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

From an Foreign Policy website article titled "19 things generals can't say about the Afghan war"

http://ricks.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/08/29/19_true_things_generals_cant_say_in_public_about_the_afghan_war_a_helpful_primer?wpisrc=obnetwork

 

Interesting how a lot of these things have been talked about here in these very forums!

 

Pakistan is now an enemy of the United States.

 

We don't know why we are here, what we are fighting for, or how to know if we are winning.

 

The strategy is to fight, talk, and build. But we're withdrawing the fighters, the Taliban won't talk, and the builders are corrupt.

 

Karzai's family is especially corrupt.

 

We want President Karzai gone but we don't have a Pushtun successor handy.

 

But the problem isn't corruption, it is which corrupt people are getting the dollars. We have to help corruption be more fair.

 

Another thing we'll never stop here is the drug traffic, so the counternarcotics mission is probably a waste of time and resources that just alienates a swath of Afghans.

 

Making this a NATO mission hurt, not helped. Most NATO countries are just going through the motions in Afghanistan as the price necessary to keep the US in Europe

 

Yes, the exit deadline is killing us.

 

Even if you got a deal with the Taliban, it wouldn't end the fighting.

 

The Taliban may be willing to fight forever. We are not.

 

Yes, we are funding the Taliban, but hey, there's no way to stop it, because the truck companies bringing goods from Pakistan and up the highway across Afghanistan have to pay off the Taliban. So yeah, your tax dollars are helping Mullah Omar and his buddies. Welcome to the neighborhood.

 

Even non-Taliban Afghans don't much like us.

 

Afghans didn't get the memo about all our successes, so they are positioning themselves for the post-American civil war .

 

And they're not the only ones getting ready. The future of Afghanistan is probably evolving up north now as the Indians, Russians and Pakistanis jockey with old Northern Alliance types. Interestingly, we're paying more and getting less than any other player.

 

Speaking of positioning for the post-American civil war, why would the Pakistanis sell out their best proxy shock troops now?

 

The ANA and ANP could break the day after we leave the country.

 

We are ignoring the advisory effort and fighting the "big war" with American troops, just as we did in Vietnam. And the U.S. military won't act any differently until and work with the Afghan forces seriously until when American politicians significantly draw down U.S. forces in country-when it may be too damn late.

 

The situation American faces in Afghanistan is similar to the one it faced in Vietnam during the Nixon presidency: A desire a leave and turn over the war to our local allies, combined with the realization that our allies may still lose, and the loss will be viewed as a U.S. defeat anyway.

 

Kim l
Kim l 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

@AUNITEDPEOPLE Great info.Sad statement.

AUNITEDPEOPLE
AUNITEDPEOPLE 5pts

 @Kim l  Yeah, it is sad news, but really predictable, so no real surprises here, just confirmation of what we all knew to be true.

Kim l
Kim l 5pts

@AUNITEDPEOPLE I agree, so why is my question

Tango9
Tango9 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

I swear to God if I find the person that coded Livefyre I'm going to...

...make a scene.

 

this is ridiculous.

shooten
shooten 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Tango9 It's obviously misnamed.  Deadfyre?  Crapfyre?  Maaatttt Daaaamon??

 

Oh, I'm impressed with the revolving bird avatars the last couple of days.

Tango9
Tango9 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @shooten  @Tango9 heh... welp, I'm determined to code up a replacement for LF.  I've circled the squirrels.  We are running through the requirements phase right now.

 

We need (not a complete list) PM, post editing, useful searches etc etc.  On it.

 

And thanks! those are my gremlins.  That's Leo, a 5 year old African Grey (who is currently sittin on my laptop screen falling asleep)

SEAN SPOONTS(MAFIA)
SEAN SPOONTS(MAFIA) 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 6 Like

Skeptical of the 16 killed in NATO airstrike.  The Palestinians and arabs in general love to fake this stuff for the media.  Remember Qadaffis daughter that was supposedly killed by Reagans airstrike against his compound back in the 1980s?  Yeah, well she grew up and became a doctor.  The guys pictured above look like they are asleep rather than blasted by a JDAM.  No blood, no missing pieces, no bloated faces from over pressure and burst blood vessels, both looking at the camera with their "dead" eyes closed, cause you know when people die the eyelids just snap shut automatically don't they?  Kharzi is playing "Kill me last please" with the insurgents. He'll be on a plane to an arranged but comfortable exile in France within five years.

Tango9
Tango9 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @SEAN SPOONTS THANK YOU!  You don't get that close to a JDAM and not have your eyeballs pop out of your head from the overpressure.  I thought the same thing the moment I saw the picture "this shit is staged..."

 

We've all seen dead people and sure as crap none of them look like they just fell asleep after you read them Pooh's Latest Honey Bee Adventure.

majrod
majrod 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Tango9  @SEAN SPOONTS  If it was video you could watch their chests rising as they breathe.

 

During the last flareup over in Israel they actually filmed a {"casualty" that had to be carried by four men to an ambulance.  Less than five minutes later he was part of a crowd spontaneously protesting.

 

oldSquid(Mafia)
oldSquid(Mafia) 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @majrod  @Tango9  @SEAN SPOONTS also saw a vid of a 'jihadi' funeral. the guys carrying the corpse dropped him.... corpse got up, got back on the stretcher and they proceeded on.... amazing! resurrection miracle or fraudulent death?

 

Tango9
Tango9 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @majrod  @SEAN SPOONTS The sad part is:  they don't even have to try and the low info voters just fall for it hook line and sinker every time.

 

Humans:  I'm not a fan.

shooten
shooten 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

Here's an interesting article from the NY Post.  They say, as many of us suspect, this is an attempt by Krazi to save his ass.

 

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/treachery_at_the_top_in_afghanistan_u80n1gY6YsQGQraKDUGTfI

Tango9
Tango9 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @shooten am I the only one who will laugh his ass of when this idiot gets shanked?

shooten
shooten 5pts

 @Tango9 Won't be surprised at all.  We're all going, I just think his time is pre-ordained.

SEAN SPOONTS(MAFIA)
SEAN SPOONTS(MAFIA) 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @shootenGood find there.

 

 

HugeFan
HugeFan 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

Okay... Isaiah, I'm still trying to wrap my head around this whole thing. Is this Karzai hedging to bolster his power base? I mean it really just doesn't make any sense. It makes me think that he and Pakistan are actually in bed together, like a "the enemy of my enemy" type thing. AFG is a nice buffer for any possible conflict with India if you're PAK.

isaiahzb
isaiahzb 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @HugeFan I don't think that anyone really knows at this point except Karzai and the ones that are in bed with him (I believe that we will find out who short enough). After speaking further with a friend who was operating in Wardak prior to the allegations, I believe that it is the Taliban who were/are conducting these killings or at-least manufacturing these rumors and Karzai knows it. He is playing along to get the heat off of his ass. I believe this because the only Afghan soldiers that have been operating in that area are ANP and they are too scared to go out of the wire without us. That really only leaves insurgents or a possible rogue outfit of ANASF, which Karzai would know about. Hopefully we will find out more in the coming weeks. I hope to get more information and push out an update on the site as soon as anything is discovered. If you want to watch that video that I speak of you can find it on facebook at this address: https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=4757947224746. I hope that helps.

HugeFan
HugeFan 5pts

@isaiahzb Thanks Isaiah, I like to get the informed opinions of you and the other SOFREP staff. I don't want to become conspiratorial but it would really bad PR if it turns out that there was some rogue ANASF outfit going bat shit in Wardak. "Sticky" is about the nicest word that I can think of if that we're to be the case. Thanks again and Happy Friday SOFREP!!!

This comment has been deleted

SEAN SPOONTS(MAFIA)
SEAN SPOONTS(MAFIA) 5pts

 @Kim l

  Nice job totally derailing the comments from the subject at hand

Tango9
Tango9 5pts

 @SEAN SPOONTS  @Kim l it was a group effort.

Tango9
Tango9 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @SEAN SPOONTS there is an offline fight club.  but no one talks about it.

Tango9
Tango9 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @SEAN SPOONTS FALL IN  /command voice

 

 

/crickets

 

fuck.

SEAN SPOONTS(MAFIA)
SEAN SPOONTS(MAFIA) 5pts

 @Tango9  Yee-aah, noticed that as I tried to scroll down through all the ground clutter looking for something(anything) that related to SOF being kicked out of Wardak. Lol.  Try to keep all these junior Airmen in some kind of formation willya? 

Kim l
Kim l 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

@Tango9 @SEAN SPOONTS it seemed pertinent to the earlier conversation. Hanging my head going to my room now . Thanks Tango

Tango9
Tango9 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Kim l I saw that.  This Ain't Hell breaks it down in a common sense fashion.  After 12 years of war, we've all run across or know someone who's "not quite right... in the head" as a direct result of the wars.  I'm not a big fan of giving them loaded weapons either.

 

Vet or not, mentally unstable is mentally unstable.

 

http://thisainthell.us/blog/?p=34265

This comment has been deleted

TKW406
TKW406 5pts

 @majrod  Don't apologize for being a stickler.  The devil is in the details, right?  There was more that I wanted to say to you in my last response but family duties called and I had to shut it down early.  I'm glad as it looks like you were still able to see what I was trying to say.   

 

Some of my pet peeves:  Emotional over reactions, Arrogance, Using 20 words when only 10 is needed & "bling".  We have become a nation of individuals playing king of the hill.  There is value gained from being part of a quality group or unit.  "United we stand, divided we fall."

 

 

 @Tango9  @HugeFan 

oldSquid(Mafia)
oldSquid(Mafia) 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Tango9  @Kim l

 yeah, but on the upside... nobody crowds you inline if youd o...

Tango9
Tango9 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @oldSquid  @Kim l It's when you do it out loud while waiting in line at security at the airport that things get interesting.

oldSquid(Mafia)
oldSquid(Mafia) 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Tango9  @Kim l

 I disagree, 9... it's ok to talk toyourself, it's ok to even disagree with yourself when you're talking to yourself.

However, when you're talking to yourself and you sya, "Huh?!?!?"

THAT'S when you stasrt worrying...

 

majrod
majrod 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @TKW406  I guess that's where I was trying to go.

 

Sorry to be a stickler.  I run into very educated and/or intelligent people all the time online and in life and my eyes start to bleed when opinions fly and we should respect all opinions and I have an x,y, z degree. 

 

I've got a pet peeve about supporting one's position with fact vs. sticking one's wet finger in the air and rendering a definitive position.

 

My other pet peeve is when some one tries to impress me with degrees or where they live.

 

I'm a regular guy and try to relate to everyone and don't use the king's English all the time but I have a "pedigree' if necessary.  Pisses the heck out of me when elitists try and strong arm the common folk.

 

 @Tango9  @HugeFan

 

TKW406
TKW406 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @majrod  Ah, there's the key Major:  Common Sense

Please don't mistake my using the term "intelligent" to mean educated.  If that were true then I'm fucked.  Anyone can become educated.  Teaching common sense is next to impossible.

I'll listen to someone with common sense any day & all day.

 

 

 

@Tango9  @HugeFan 

majrod
majrod 5pts

 @Kim l No Kim, I was talking with Tango and now with TK but I'm happy to chat with you too.

 

 @majrod  @HugeFan  @Tango9

 

majrod
majrod 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

@TKW406

I continue to disagree.

 

There are many intelligent people that think emotionally.  I don't base  my beliefs on emotion and that's hard because I'm a passionate guy.

 

I'll listen all day to a common sense HS drop out over an extremely  intelligent doctorate whose argument starts with, "I feel..."

 

 

@Tango9@HugeFan

 

 

TKW406
TKW406 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @majrod   Filtering the information and judging the source is all part of determining the value of what is being said.  To me, a person that I find to be intelligent but has a different opinion than me is still worth listening to.  Those that talk in order to fill time & space have no value.  In either case it is going to take some amount of time & effort to figure out which one is standing in front of you.

 

You're correct that not all opinions are equal and it's takes work to find people with solid opinions.  It's even harder to find facts.  This blog is a good example.

 

 @Tango9  @HugeFan 

majrod
majrod 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @TKW406 "It should never be taken to the point where they are unwilling or refuse to  listen to the opinions of others." 

 

I'm not so charitable.  I don't listen to all opinions.  They aren't equal.  There is such a thing as informed opinion.  I try and limit myself to those.  Opinions based on fact are my favorites.  It's the ones that are based on "I think", "I want" or the WORST, "I feel" that I want to drop kick into oblivion.

 

If folks went backed and checked their opinion against the real world/facts we would automatically cut stupidity in half.

 

 @Tango9  @HugeFan

 

majrod
majrod 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Kim l  I wasn't.  (shrugging shoulders)

 

hjw1dr
hjw1dr 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Tango9  @Kim l Arguing with yourself is one thing... it's when you think you are having a conversation when all you're doing is muttering the same thing over and over (kinda like a few folks in politics do) that you know you're really in trouble! 

TKW406
TKW406 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @majrod @Tango9 @HugeFan  Am I the only one that thinks Cognitive Dissonance sounds like Marriage?

Jokes aside:  A person should always hold tight to what they believe and be willing to fight fiercely for what they hold to be true & right.  That said - It should never be taken to the point where they are unwilling or refuse to listen to the opinions of others.  There's always a chance you're talking to the one person on the planet that really is smarter than you.  

majrod
majrod 5pts

 @HugeFan Did I tell you my Dad looks like your avatar?  He has the same accent too!

 

 @Tango9  @Kim l

 

Kim l
Kim l 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

@HugeFan @Tango9 LoL

majrod
majrod 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

 @Tango9 I knew you were joking T9.  I was taking advantage of the situation to toss out there why people get pissed when someone shares facts one doesn't like.

 

(NOTE:  I said FACTS folks not feelings, thoughts and opinions.)

 

Critical thinkers who possess independent thought ask themself, "Did I know that?" if not, "Am I wrong?".  "Why do I believe what I believe?" 

 

The sheep and the indoctrinated say, "I feel, think, want your facts to be different so I'm ignoring you, you meanie!"

 

 

  @HugeFan

 

Tango9
Tango9 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @majrod  @HugeFan  "Cognitive dissonance is a necessary pain ones go through as one develops his belief system."

 

so very true.  And questioning yourself, and allowing for yourself to be questioned without becoming emotional about it is paramount.

 

My comment was more tongue in cheek-ish.  Voices in my head sort of humor, guess it failed.

majrod
majrod 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @HugeFan  @Tango9 Hey guys. Don't ding disagreeing with oneself.  That's how one changes one's mind and learns.

 

Cognitive Dissonance

 

In modern psychology, cognitive dissonance is the feeling of discomfort when simultaneously holding two or more conflicting cognitions: ideas, beliefs, values or emotional reactions. In a state of dissonance, people may sometimes feel "disequilibrium": frustration, hunger, dread, guilt, anger, embarrassment, anxiety, etc

 

The theory of cognitive dissonance in social psychology proposes that people have a motivational drive to reduce dissonance by altering existing cognitions, adding new ones to create a consistent belief system, or alternatively by reducing the importance of any one of the dissonant elements.

 

Cognitive dissonance is a necessary pain ones go through as one develops his belief system.

 

It's why folks get so angry when you share facts with them that conflict with their beliefs.

 

 @Kim l

 

HugeFan
HugeFan 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Tango9  @Kim l "It's when you start disagreeing with yourself that you need to be concerned." ...and have the ability to own a firearm restricted LOL... :-P

Tango9
Tango9 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

 @Kim l I talk to myself all the time.  It's when you start disagreeing with yourself that you need to be concerned.

Tango9
Tango9 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Kim l  @HugeFan  @Tango9 LOL he's doing better than me!

Tango9
Tango9 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Kim l  @Tango9 again, I'm no lawyer, but I've seen enough to recognize horseshit on sight.

Tango9
Tango9 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 6 Like

 @HugeFan  @Kim l Exactly.  If it was classified as a misdemeanor at the time the judge handed down the verdict/sentance, then it must remain classified as suck.

 

It's not like some idiot in state legislature can suddenly declare J walking a capital crime and just oil up the guillotine.

HugeFan
HugeFan 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

 @Tango9  I agree with the idea that if someone is mentally unfit then firearm ownership needs to be an impossibility. All this bullshit that has gone on lately has been because of mental instability, SSRI's or mental instability coupled with the use of SSRI's. There should be some clauses that prohibit certain folks from owning firearms until they can demonstrate the ability to not just use one but do so appropriately and with safety in mind. Period.

@Kim l  Now as for what you're describing, I think that it is a classic example of the bureaucracy run amok. It's like double jeopardy, He paid for his crime 45 years ago when it was a misdemeanor. If his record has been clean since then despite the reclassification of the crime as felony all these years later, he should not be considered a felon unless he has since committed the same offense after reclassification. You know what? Legal stuff isn't my forte but I'm just going off of what seems like best practice or common sense.

Tango9
Tango9 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Kim l  @Tango9 it'd be like the state passing a law making pickles illegal, then incarcerating everyone who owned pickles EVER. 

 

/flag

 

Illegal procedure, on the offense.  15 yard penalty, loss of down.

 

/whistle

Tango9
Tango9 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Kim l  @Tango9 Ah.... gotcha.  I think that story tickles a memory and saw it. 

 

But he'll be fine:  I'm no lawyer, but I KNOW there's a bit there where you can't pass a law today that makes action A illegal and then turn around and punish people who did A when it was legal.  There's a term for it, but it fails my old brain at the moment.

Tango9
Tango9 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Kim l  @Tango9 I assumed from your OP that you were referring to the subject article I linked.  I don't have cable or directv so I don't watch america live.

 

If you're referring to a specific case not covered in that link then I apologize because I have no idea what news you're referring to.

Tango9
Tango9 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @Kim l We just lost Chris Kyle to a guy that evidently shouldn't have been anywhere near a firearm.

oldSquid(Mafia)
oldSquid(Mafia) 5pts

interesting article Majrod... but...is it just me, or does the last paragraph crack the door open on conspiracy theory? (getting my tinfoil Dixie Cup off the shelf..)

 

majrod
majrod 5pts

 @oldSquid I tend to agree.  As I understand it the Murderer was also on drugs and never left the wire in Iraq.

 

http://www.infowars.com/us-marine-questions-narrative-behind-chris-kyle-murder/

 

 @southernbelle

 

oldSquid(Mafia)
oldSquid(Mafia) 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @majrod  @southernbelle interesting, Majrod, but I still hold that the guy that killed Chris was not PTSD.

Tango9
Tango9 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @majrod  @southernbelle  @oldSquid Indeed.  We make fun of the drone pilots a lot but even those guys are having a tough time with dealing from their air conditioned office in NM, AZ or NV. 

 

You just don't know how stress is going to tie someone's synapses up until you give it a go.

 

I've had kids curled up under the drying bench in the shower in BMT as little as 48 hours into basic drooling on themselves mumbling incoherently.

 

IDE:  Identify, Document, Eliminate.

majrod
majrod 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @southernbelle You know anecdotally speaking PTSD seems to impact those not close to the line more (there is also  statistical data that supports that) and I was always MUCH more comfortable with grunts having live ammo than others when in the rear.

 

  @oldSquid

 

Julesy
Julesy 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @oldSquid From what I understand, he was never in combat or on the front lines even remotely, right? I think he is mentally ill and was misdiagnosed and should have never been released from the hospital. 

oldSquid(Mafia)
oldSquid(Mafia) 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

to me, I'm not sure the guy that killed Chris suffered from PTSD - I think there were other things wrong with him  - Schizo/paranoid?  I said the same on one of the other Chris Kyle articles.

Tango9
Tango9 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @Kim l  @Tango9 Indeed he was.  But the fact that Chris is dead is evidence that the guy was a nutjob.  And there are many more like him out there.  Believe me.

Kim l
Kim l 5pts

@Tango9 Agree 100 percent. Wasn't Cris trying to help him?

HugeFan
HugeFan 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Kim l Vets can't own firearms? Did I read that right?

StormR
StormR 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @HugeFan  @Kim l HG, re Vets can't own firearms...don't freak.  It is NOT that simple.  The VA is recommending that veterans who have expressed intent to harm themselves or others, and have been diagnosed with certain conditions, not be allowed access to firearms.  There is a lot of hysteria about it in the news media and social media and lots of misinformation out there.  It is NOT part of the current banned gun movement, but is directly related to the high suicide rate by veterans.  

 

Julesy
Julesy 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Tango9  Ugh. I feel for you. Imagine that person being your parent & is your legal guardian whether you like it or not. lol Needless to say, my sis and I didn't have a normal childhood, but it did make us close. It would get frustrating getting grounded or in trouble for something harmless, but perceived by this person as bad. It was a thrill to finally leave for college, but growing up that way did make me independent since I knew I had to largely fend for myself. I remember going to my part-time after school job (I was still in hs) and the manager said my mom called and was screaming and freaking out about me. I couldn't exactly tell them, "she's insane. Literally." lol I'd shrug and say she's excitable. BTW: Now, though she's on her meds, she's still not entirely normal. Her illness has gotten worse over the years.@hjw1dr  @StormR  @HugeFan  @Kim l 

Tango9
Tango9 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @southernbelle  @hjw1dr  @StormR  @HugeFan  @Kim l "My mother is mentally ill (schizo-affective bi-polar)"

 

I had a boss for 7 years as a defense contractor.  He was same.  Smart guy, but totally impossible to deal with, even when he was on his meds.  He'd repeat the same things over and over to the point where you just sat quietly in the team room meetings and planned your exfil.

 

When he skipped his meds (oh, and he was a raging alcoholic... we're having fun now!) holy crap.

 

Picture OCD + bi-polar + alcoholic.  it's a fuckin' rodeo!

 

I literally had enough one day and no kidding just walked out of the building, turned in my badges and never went back.  He berated me in emails for a week because I didn't do the "exit review" with HR.  Crazy as a shithouse rat, that guy.

Tango9
Tango9 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @StormR  @hjw1dr  @HugeFan  @Kim l It's a huge responsibility, Storm.  But at the end of the day, the call is being made by 1 doctor.

 

Now, not to abuse doctors, but I've known more than a few over my lifetime that I absolutely detest.  Same with veterinarians, dentists, etc.  No one is immune to becoming a jerk.  But like lawyers, these fields attract more jerks than the bell curve would allow.

 

I can't count the times I wanted to grab my dentist/vet/doctor/lawyer by the throat and say "hey! fucko!  I'm talking to you!  Dismiss me again at your peril!"

 

You, ma'am, I trust.  Them, in general, I do not.

Julesy
Julesy 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 6 Like

 @Tango9  My mother is mentally ill (schizo-affective bi-polar) so, trust me, I know the pains of the ins and outs of the mental health system. They'd get her in the hospital, regulate her meds, and then set her free. She kept going back because she couldn't function without possibly harming herself. FINALLY after she had accidentally almost killed herself did they finally take us (the family) seriously about her state of mind and really do something about it. This is after bouncing around different mental hospitals, lock-down care facilities, etc. Sigh. I could rant on this all day and night. Grr! ;) So it ticks me that Routh, who was obviously a harm to himself and others was allowed to be let out. Thankfully, she's been taking her meds (I'm shocked that they can't make them take them) and is in a good facility close to my family. It was a pain to finally have her declared unfit to make her own decisions and to have my dad become her guardian. Bless his heart, my dad (Navy Vietnam vet--the dork who drove himself to the VA while he was having a heart attack--LOL--can laugh now because he's fine. Had mentioned that in a diff post before) has stuck with her through all of this. He still gets dreamy-eyed when he talks about how she was the most beautiful woman he'd ever seen when they met. Sorry for my rant....my dad is made of awesome. :D @hjw1dr  @StormR  @HugeFan  @Kim l 

Kim l
Kim l 5pts

@Tango9 @hjw1dr @StormR @HugeFan So sorry, more understanding about your passion .

StormR
StormR 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @Tango9  @hjw1dr  @HugeFan  @Kim l  LOL, T, you're right.  I have to run off also.  My retirement party starts in 10 minutes and I probably should be there :)

 

hjw1dr
hjw1dr 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Tango9  @StormR  @HugeFan  @Kim l  You love annoying her.. lol 

Tango9
Tango9 5pts

 @hjw1dr  @StormR  @HugeFan  @Kim l I love using military terms like "5 mikes"  makes my wife roll her eyes so I do it as often as possible.

Tango9
Tango9 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @hjw1dr  @StormR  @HugeFan  @Kim l aye!  Great plan, but I'm off to work in 5 mikes.  I'll roll by when I get home.

hjw1dr
hjw1dr 5pts

 @Tango9  @StormR  @HugeFan  @Kim l  We could go elsewhere?  OTOF

Tango9
Tango9 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @hjw1dr  @StormR  @HugeFan  @Kim l Ok... I'm no longer a mod, but we've gotten W A Y off-topic.  I'm guilty, too.   Warzistan.  Terrorists.  /points to the road... let's somehow get back there :)

hjw1dr
hjw1dr 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @StormR  Well, I would say that's too much power to hand to a doctor. He could recommend, but the people of the state should have the power to review independently.  (Difference of opinion... I guess)

 

@HugeFan  @Kim l  

hjw1dr
hjw1dr 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @StormR  @HugeFan  @Kim l  As long as it's not permanent, makes sense. But I would want to know under what conditions those "rights or liberties" are returned.  If not spelled out, there is a risk of permanent loss of liberty. Take mental health commitments in the 1950 - 1960s. Some people were committed involuntarily and never were reviewed again... 30 years plus. 

StormR
StormR 5pts

 @hjw1dr  @HugeFan  @Kim l  Holly, re stroke patients, it may be true in your state that it goes before a judge.  However, that is not true in my state.  The Doctor informs the Department of Licensing directly and the license is immediately revoked.

 

Tango9
Tango9 5pts

 @hjw1dr  @StormR  @HugeFan  @Kim l Exactly.

hjw1dr
hjw1dr 5pts

 @Tango9  @StormR  @HugeFan  @Kim l 

T9, true.  

So, one doctor was enough for a review? No witnesses, no court? no discussion? Just the doctor? Makes my point. 

StormR
StormR 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @hjw1dr  @HugeFan  @Kim l   I suppose we'll have to just agree to disagree.  I see it as a matter of safety and common sense.  And I have not seen a reference to it being 'permanent'.   Persons taking certain medications (for medical, as well as mental health reasons) are not allowed to sign wills or legal documents, and once their course of treatment is completed, that restriction is lifted.  I see it as much the same thing. 

 

Tango9
Tango9 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @hjw1dr  @StormR  @HugeFan  @Kim l I lost a good friend, mother of 2, beautiful girl, to a murder/suicide because the nitwit was deemed "fit" by medical personnel.  Everyone knew he was batshit crazy.

hjw1dr
hjw1dr 5pts

 @StormR  @HugeFan  @Kim l  "You basically have to prove incompetence to remove a drivers license."  should read:  "You basically have to prove incompetence to remove a driver's license permanently -- or have a hell of a lot of driving violations."     

hjw1dr
hjw1dr 5pts

 @StormR  @HugeFan  @Kim l  As for stroke, and demential, thos are also court reviewed. A doctor sends their opinion to Public Saftey, a judge reviews, and puts a stay up driving for 2 years (depending on your state. Again, if you remain seizure free (for example) for 1-2 years (depending on your state) you may apply for a license o drive again. 

 

You basically have to prove incompetence to remove a drivers license.  Felons cannot obtain weapons based upon statute, passed by congress.  (not sure of the specific statutes... some of our LE would know, I'm sure.

 

I'm just saying let's be careful with our liberties, and not to throw the baby out with the bath water. 

hjw1dr
hjw1dr 5pts

 @StormR I think you misunderstand. Calling law enforcement is one thing. That is a temporary call, based upon your judgement, and the police take the person to hospital for evaluation (usually no more than 24 hours, depending on your state). After you call Law Enforcement, a doctor decides to admit the person in question involuntarily to a mental hospital but within 24-72 hours a judge (with witness and counsel present) MUST make a determination whether that person is at risk to harm others or self.  If not, then they are immediately released. Even the court order for long term commitment is not permanent either (usually a week ot 2) and then the case must be reviewed again. The procedures vary from state to state, but are usually similar to what I stated above.  

 

To take a personal constitutional liberties away permanently is another factor altogether. IMO, that must be carried out under the rule of law, with peers hearing, and witnesses, not under one or even two person's opinion (professional or otherwise). To do otherwise would risk a great abuse of power. 

 

 

 @HugeFan  @Kim l  

StormR
StormR 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @hjw1dr  @HugeFan  @Kim l  hjw1dr, I really don't see this as relating to 'due process' as it does not relate to civil commitment. There are persons already restricted from gun ownership, and I think this broadens the scope.  Law Enforcement already has the authority to remove guns from homes of felons and I think (?) those who have been deemed unstable (not the right word, but the word escapes me at the moment).  It is much the same as those who have suffered strokes or have dementia.  Doctors notify the State and their drivers' license is revoked.  The key to it is the Doctor having the conviction that a person is considered a harm to themselves or others.  There is lots of gray areas around this, particularly as relates to patient confidentality laws.  As a Chaplain, I ran into those gray areas.  I always told people that if I considered them a danger to themselves or others, I would not hesitate to contact law enforcement - all else I held to be confidential.  As regards to guns, I think there is one common agreement among gun owners and non-gun owners..there are some people that should not have access to a weapon.  The complexity is in a reasonable agreement on 'who' and 'how'.   

 

hjw1dr
hjw1dr 5pts

 @StormR  @HugeFan  @Kim l  Storm, I think the larger question is due process. In civilian cases where there is suicide threats or homicidal threats there is always a court hearing. Does that happen in the VA? WHo determines these rules? Is the VA outside the constitution? 

Just questions.

Tango9
Tango9 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @HugeFan  @StormR  @Kim l "As I said prior in response to T9, nobody with mental or emotional stability issues should be allowed near firearms(or even cars for that matter). Orignally, it sounded as though ALL vets were going on some restricted list."

 

The dude that blogged it up originally was, um, to put it delicately, "alarmist."

HugeFan
HugeFan 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @StormR Yeah, not freaking out. Just wasn't sure that I read what Kim had wrote, correctly. As I said prior in response to T9, nobody with mental or emotional stability issues should be allowed near firearms(or even cars for that matter). Orignally, it sounded as though ALL vets were going on some restricted list. That would have had me more than worried. It would have had me on a plane to somewhere else. :-) @Kim l 

TKW406
TKW406 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @HugeFan   This issue was brought to me by another of our 'REP brothers.  Here's an article that I found that seems to summarize their argument:  http://redflagnews.com/headlines/disarming-americas-heros-veterans-receiving-official-letters-prohibiting-them-from-purchasing-possessing-receiving-or-transporting-a-firearm-or-ammunition

hjw1dr
hjw1dr 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @TKW406  @HugeFan  Does this mean if you file for disability from the VA there might also come some other things you might not like. ?  

This comment has been deleted

oldSquid(Mafia)
oldSquid(Mafia) 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @oldSquid  @Kim l  @HugeFan been thinking about this comment - should have clarified..... I WOULD be screwed if I owned any guns or decided to buy another gun. I sold all mine at a gun show and bought groceries -and I've eaten those groceries already...

oldSquid(Mafia)
oldSquid(Mafia) 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Kim l  @HugeFan if that's true, I'm screwed.... something about bars, soldiers 'n sailors....

HugeFan
HugeFan 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Kim l  @HugeFan Wow, I thought that you had to be a felon in order to be stripped of your 2nd Amendment right. I guess not, honestly that's very disconcerting because Misdemeanors can very from state to state. 

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