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Home » Black Ops & Intel » The New Al Qaeda: Lashkar-e-Jhangvi The Not-So-New Kids on the Block in Pakistan

The New Al Qaeda: Lashkar-e-Jhangvi The Not-So-New Kids on the Block in Pakistan

by Laura Walker · March 9, 2013 · Posted In: Black Ops & Intel
Lashkar-e-Jhangvi
On January 10, 2013, three bombs exploded in the city of Quetta, Pakistan. The first bomb went off in the early hours in a food market. It killed 12 people and injured 47. The United Baloch Army claimed responsibility. The second and third bombs went off in a one-two punch later in the evening hours. A suicide bomber hit a snooker hall popular with Shias, and ten minutes later, after police and journalists arrived on the scene, another bomb exploded just outside the building. The evening death toll was 96 people, with over 170 injured in the blasts, the majority of victims were Shias. Lashkar-e-Jhangvi claimed responsibility for the latter attacks.

Related Posts
  • Lashkar-e-Jhangvi, Part 2
  • The New Al Qaeda. LeT Part 2: Pakistani Intelligence (ISI) and Tactics
  • The Technology of Lashkar-e-Taiba

Then on February 16, 2013, a bomb that had been hidden in a water-tank exploded in a busy food market in Quetta, killing 90 people, most of them Shias. Lashkar-e-Jhangvi again claimed responsibility. A week later, the current head of Lashkar-e-Jhangvi, Malik Ishaq, was arrested.

On February 22, the Punjab Police released their ‘Most Wanted Terrorists’ list, naming 109 men. The first surprise – not a single member of Lashkar-e-Taiba [LeT], the terror organization responsible for the brutal massacre in Mumbai in 2008, made the list. 109 slots – no LeT. Topping the updated Pakistan terror list is Lashkar-e-Jhangvi [LeJ], the terror outfit who, according to Interior Minister Malik, is responsible for or tied to 80 percent of terror activities in Pakistan.

This shift is due to a combination of changes – the primary being that members of Lashkar-e-Taiba have been killed in action, rounded up, put on trial, executed, and the testimony of Ajmal Kasab, the sole surviving LeT terrorist from the Mumbai Massacre, gave up extensive operational details of ongoing LeT terror plots. The secondary shift is political in nature, and denotes a successful campaign by LeT to bolster appeal with the population in the areas of Pakistan bordering Afghanistan.

For the past few years, Lashkar-e-Taiba has been working through its charity organization, Jamaat-ud-Dawa [JuD], to build rapport with local populations in the Kashmir region through altruism and propaganda. JuD runs hospitals and schools in the region, and the de facto head of Lashkar-e-Taiba, Hafiz Muhammad Saeed, has tacked in public to making predominantly political statements – downplaying his connections to terrorism, and presenting himself as a rational voice for political change.

This “kinder and gentler” version of LeT and JuD is tactical – the United States has declared their intention to leave the region, and the players are lining up to fill the void. Despite LeT being listed with the UN as a Terror Organization, and despite the U.S. putting a 10 million dollar bounty on his head, Saeed lives relatively peacefully in his home in Lahore, with full cooperation of the local police, carefully culling political power and downplaying LeT’s intensely violent terror campaigns.

Lashkar-e-Jhangvi: Not-So-New Kids on the Block in Pakistan

Lashkar-e-Jhangvi: Not-So-New Kids on the Block in Pakistan

Coordination and cooperation with Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence [ISI], which spawned Lashkar-e-Taiba in the first place, has effectively reduced the urgency to investigate and apprehend members of Lashkar-e-Taiba. Hafiz Saeed is becoming the new Arafat.

This leaves Pakistan with a focal pivot to the Punjab, where Lashkar-e-Jhangvi has been tearing it up. As back-to-back bombings occurred in Quetta, the Shia population took to protesting, refusing to bury their dead until the Pakistan police and military stepped up their focus on LeJ.

The release of the updated terror list from Pakistan prompted a February 26th article in The Atlantic titled “The Taliban’s New, More Terrifying Cousin,” profiling Lashkar-e-Jhangvi. Are they new? Not hardly. LeJ goes way back, but considering that many Americans still haven’t much of a clue who Lashkar-e-Taiba are, it is a safe bet Lashkar-e-Jhangvi is a new name in the media.

So let’s meet the newer, or now more notorious, face of terror in Pakistan. Make no mistake, this a brutal, dangerous, vicious terror organization:

Origins and Body Count of Lashkar-e-Jhangvi

The terrific Bill Roggio at Long War Journal has a nice summary of LeJ:

The Lashkar-e-Jhangvi is an anti-Shia terror group that has integrated with al Qaeda and the Taliban in Pakistan’s tribal areas. The Lashkar-e-Jhangvi has an extensive network in Pakistan and often serves as al Qaeda’s muscle for terror attacks. The group has conducted numerous suicide and other terror attacks inside Pakistan and Afghanistan. In particular, the Lashkar-e-Jhangvi is well known for carrying out sectarian terror attacks against minority Shia, Ahmadis, Sufis, and Christians in Pakistan.

Lashkar-e-Jhangvi has two primary goals: killing Shias and, of course, establishing the Caliphate. For now, they excel at killing Shias. The current estimate of Shias killed by LeJ in the Punjab alone is around 1300 people. Videos of Lashkar-e-Jhangvi beheading people are out on the internet and they are extremely gruesome. I am torn about linking one here, because I do not want to participate in promoting the fear and propaganda of these savages, nor tie SOFREP to them. On the other hand, the trend of downplaying the brutality of terrorists in the media is equally disturbing to me. So in compromise, here is how you can view the video if you choose:

Lashkar-e-Jhangvi Beheadings

Warning: Extremely graphic. You cannot UNsee this. In lieu of a link, just google: beheading video lashkar-e-jhangvi. It is currently hosted on mcrtv.org.

If you choose not to view the video, which is probably the better choice, here is a description: Throw out any Hollywood notions you may have about a beheading. This is not a great big sword, a clean sweep and a head falling off the victim in one slice. These executions are done with short blades and a lot of hacking and sawing. They are horrific. They are filmed because they are horrific. They are a great source of pride to the members of Lashkar-e-Jhangvi and they are distributed as both a badge of honor for the killers and a warning to the people of the region they terrorize.

Lashkar-e-Jhangvi is not new. It was officially formed back in 1996 as a spinoff from the terror outfit Sipah e Sahaba [SSP], which was formed in 1985. SSP began as a political party aimed at eradicating Shi’ite Muslims from Pakistan.  Members of the SSP actually held seats in the Pakistan National Assembly in the 1990s, but by 2002 their ties to terrorist activities got them officially named a terror organization, and the SSP was officially banned in 2012.

However, as far back as the late 1990s, several members of Sipah-e-Sahaba decided the organization just wasn’t violent enough, and they formed the spin-off group Lashkar-e-Jhangvi, named for Maulana Haq Nawaz Jhangvi, one of the founding members of SSP who was assassinated by Shias in 1990. LeJ was founded by SSP members Riaz Basra and Akram Lahori. The ideology of LeJ is to convert all of Pakistan to a Sunni state, through all means necessary, especially violent methods.

Led initially by Basra, LeJ immediately began a violent campaign in the Punjab region before they were officially a separate outfit. Lahori and LeJ comrades trained for their terrorist raids in al-Qaeda camps in Surobi, Afghanistan. Basra was eventually killed in a botched attack on a Shia target in the Punjab in 2002, and so Lahori took over LeJ operations and went on a Shia killing spree in Karachi, racking up a substantial body count there.

Lahori was arrested in Karachi in June 2002 and remains in police custody pending trial. (Witnesses for his trial keep ending up dead, go figure.) After his arrest, the police in Karachi released a list of Lahori’s crimes:

According to the list, Akram Lahori killed Syed Akhter Hussain Rizvi on May 3, 2001, within the limits of Korangi police station; Dr Asad Ali Bukhari on June 26, 2001, in Saeedabad; Dr Mohammad Raza Pirani on July 18, 2001, in Soldier Bazaar; Syed Mushtaq Haider on July 20, 2001, within the jurisdiction of Brigade police station, Shaukat Ali Mirza, PSO MD and Salman Shah on July 26, 2001, in Frere area, Hamiod Rizvi on Sept 1, 2001, in Clifton area; Syed Razi Haider Najfi and Basit Ali Najfi on Sept 12, 2001, within the limits of Gizri police station; Waseem, Gulzar Hussain, Jabbar Hussain, Faizan, Ghulam Rasool and Mohammad Raza Zaidi on Oct 4, 2001, in Mehmoodabad area; Ehteshamuddin Haider on Dec 21, 2001, in jurisdiction of Soldier Bazaar; Syed Jawad Hussain Rizvi, on Jan 29, 2002, in Darakhshan; Sadiq Ali Hamsheri on Feb 3, 2002, in Kharadar; Dr Rashid Mehdi on Feb 12, 2002, in the limits of Mominabad police station; Dr Aal-i-Safdar Zaidi on March 4, 2002, in Gizri area, Dr Muzzafar Ali Samoo on March 7, 2002, in the limits of Baghdadi police station; Anwer Ali Tirmezi and Zulfiqar Haider on March 11, 2002, in the jurisdiction of Shah Faisal Colony police station; Constable Faiz-ul-Islam on March 11, 2002, in Korangi Industrial Area; Qazim Hussain Jafery on March 21, 2002, in Mehmoodabad; Muhammad Nazeer on April 7, 2002, in Rizvia area; Abul Khair alias Asfahan Haider on April 9, 2002, in the limits of North Nazimabad police station; Aal-i-Ubah Rizvi and Nasir Ali on April 24, 2002, in Peerabad; Syed Zafar Mehdi Zaidi, Mir Zaman and Mukhtar Ahmed on May 6, 2002, in the limits of Al-Falah police station; Agha Abbas and Gul Zaman on May 25, 2002, in Rizvia area and Nadeem Hussain on May 28, 2002, in Aziz Bhatti area were also killed by Akram Lahori during the last 25 months.

According to the list, he also injured Raza Hussain and Faizan Hussain on May 9, 2001, in Mominabad; Dr Aal-i-Hasan Zaidi on June 7, 2001, within the limits of Frere police station; Mohammad Jahangir on July 18, 2001, in Shershah; Syed Nasir Hussain on Aug 22, 2001, in Nazimabad; Mohammad Ali on Sept 12, 2001, in the limits of Gizri police station; Iftikhar Hussain, Ghaffar Hussain, Haji Azhar Hussain, Azhar Hussain, Nadeem Abbas and Mohsin Ali on Oct 4, 2001, in Mehmoodabad; Amir Abbas on Nov 15, 2001, in the limits of Korangi Industrial Area; Zamurrud Hussain Jaffery on Jan 29, 2002, in Darakhshan area; Syed Azhar Hussain Zaidi and Syed Asher Hussain Zaidi on Feb 6, 2002, in the limits of Shah Faisal Colony police station; Syed Ghayoor Abbas and Arshad Aziz on Feb 8, 2002, in the jurisdiction of Korangi Industrial Area police station; Ahsan Ali and Firdous on Feb 11, 2002, in Saddar area; Constable Naimat Khan on March 11, 2002, in the limits of Korangi Industrial Area police station; Fazal Karim and Rizwan Akhter on March 21, 2002, in Mehmoodabad; Fahad Raza Rizvi on April 24, 2002, in Peerabad area; Gul Zaman on May 25, 2002 in Rizvia area; Tanveer Hussain on May 28, 2002, in Aziz Bhatti area and Asghar Shah on June 5, 2002, in the limits of Darakhshan police station.

Meanwhile, as per his own statement, Akram confessed to investigators in Karachi that he was involved in 30 cases in Punjab.

(source: CriticalPPP)

And that’s just Karachi. In the Punjab, Lahori and LeJ had their first headliner hit by killing six Iranian cadets in 1992. Lahori and LeJ coordinated the 1997 jail break from Dera Ghazi Khan. In 1998 Lahori and LeJ killed 28 people attending a Majlis in Mominpura, Lahore. In 2000 they gunned down Deputy Superintendent of Police Lahore Tariq Kamboh and his driver in a motorcycle ambush. In 2002, LeJ terrorists killed 11 worshipers in a gun and grenade attack on Shah-i-Najaf Imambargah at Khyaban-i-Sir Syed. And the list goes on:

Kotwali, Jhang, Oct 12; Nov 17 (2 cases) and Dec 6, all in 1991; Millat Park, Lahore, April 26, 1992; Kotwali, Jhang, June 6, 1992; Jhang, July 7, 1992; Kotwali, Jhang, Nov 17, 1992 (two cases); Kotwali, Jhang, Aug 15, 1993; Mazang, Lahore, April 5, 1994; Old Anarkali, Lahore, April 30, 1994; Model Town, Lahore, Sept 19, 1994; Kotwali, Jhang, Jan 1, 1995; Nawankot, Lahore, March 7, 1995; Shadman, Lahore, Jan 9, 1996; Iqbal Town, Lahore, Jan 15, 1996; Old Kotwali, Multan, Feb 20, 1997; A-Division, Sheikhupura, Feb 22, 1997 (two cases); South Cantonment, Lahore, July 22, 1997; Qila Deedar Singh, Gujranwala, June 21, 1998; Qila Gujjar Singh, Lahore, Sept 11, 1998; Waris Khan, Rawalpindi, Dec 4, 2000.

Lahori was sentenced to death in 2003 for the 2002 assassination of a Shia doctor,Safdar Zaidi, and two other Shia leaders, Anwar Tirmizi and Zulfiqar Haider in a separate event also in 2002. However, he remains in police custody, where he has been since, pending the outcome of numerous other trials for his terrorism. In August last year, Lahori and 37 other inmates belonging to Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP), Lashkar-e-Jhangvi (LeJ), Sipah-e-Sahaba Pakistan, Jundullah and other militant organizations, who were being held in Hyderabad, India, were shifted back to the Karachi Central Jail under threat of attacks in Hyderabad.

kabul-1 credit NYT dec 6 2011

Next: Lashkar-e-Jhangvi under Malik Ishaq – bloodier and bolder.

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ScottMcEwen
ScottMcEwen 5pts

Well done report.  It is a sobering reminder of the level of hate that this region breeds and exports on others.  The raider is at the gate, and we choose to ignore the threat.


arty 021
arty 021 5pts

isn't this religion so much fun.. and the hug a thug U.N that bribes these animals still don't get it. they don't want peace. this is a way of life.

-BLACK-
-BLACK- 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

There is a hot bed in hell for these mutherfuckers.  Some heavy pipe hitters need to start booking  reservations and filling vacancies ASAP.  The beheading doesnt twist the short and curlies near as much as seeing thelittle kid slumped over dead in that picture.    Well, thanks Laura for adding more hate to an already overflowing cup...You had a shit ton of detailed info and it was very well articulated.    

LauraWalkerKC
LauraWalkerKC moderator 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @BLACK ACTUAL You're going to love the next installments ;)

-BLACK-
-BLACK- 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @LauraWalkerKC  @BLACK ACTUAL    I am going to hate it but love you for making the hate seed produce more hateful flowers, if that makes a damn bit of sense.  

If more sheeple were subjected to real news like this coming out of the boobie then we would have more American Patriots sprouting up daily.   All them fucking dead kids man....shit cuts real deep. 

AUNITEDPEOPLE
AUNITEDPEOPLE 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @BLACK ACTUAL   @LauraWalkerKC  Poetic I would say!

 

You do have to hunt for it, but us true patriots can smell the truth from bullshit a mile away.

AUNITEDPEOPLE
AUNITEDPEOPLE 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @BLACK ACTUAL That, my friend, is funny as hell! Reminds me of Pulp Fiction (in an esoteric way). But yeah, hit the nail on the head there.

AUNITEDPEOPLE
AUNITEDPEOPLE 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

First off, great article Laura, a good insight not only into the LeT but also into the complexity of the Sunni/Shia relationship. And, as you pointed out in a post below, this relationship is so layered and convoluted that, even if a book was written, it would just be a chronicle of their relationship, with no clear conclusion other than there will never be any true reconciliation between the two sects.

 

I believe that your thorough vetting of the LeT and, in general, the relationship of the Sunni/Shia in that particular region of the world, points to a larger issue that is a issue that we, the US, have to deal with all over the Middle East. The ultimate conclusion is that the Sunni versus Shia conflict can never be solved. Sure, they can get along every once in a while, but in general, they always seem to be at each other’s throats (no pun intended!), making it very difficult in areas where we are involved to help establish some form of stable government in these regions (specifically, Pakistan and Afghanistan).

 

Sure, we did help in Iraq to help them decide who they wanted to run their country, but as you so aptly pointed out below, that when one party gets power, then they start trending towards oppressing the other party. It seems to me that each side tends to hold grudges for a very long time, so now that Iraq has a Shia government, the Sunni’s are starting to show resistance to them, as seen by all of the bombings that have taken place in the last few years.  Doesn’t make much news over here, but even though Iraq is somewhat stable, the two sects are still going at it. Doesn’t help that, as you stated, Iran and Iraq are now somewhat aligned, at least in general.

 

My point to all this being that if they will fight, kill and do barbaric acts to fellow Islam’s, we can assume (and have seen) that they will do the same, or worse to infidels, giving them somewhat of a unifying rallying point for their ideological aggression. This makes our fight in the region much more difficult and, after we pull out of these regions, even if we help establish some form of stable government, this will start to deteriorate the minute we leave.  This inner conflict in Islam is how these terror groups like LeT, the Taliban, AQ (in all forms) come into being and once they get a foothold, they grow into a formidable force in the region and, leads them to be bold in striking out beyond their borders, especially if they are involved in the ruling party and have access to more resources.

 

In conclusion, this inner instability is an issue that we need to understand and accept as fact as we deal with conflicts in the Middle East and Northern Africa. We are dealing with barbaric forces that will do whatever it takes to push their extremist agendas and we need to treat these people in a manner they understand. (take that to mean what you will!)

Virginstateofmind
Virginstateofmind 5pts

Well it's nice to see that the savages are keeping up with their old bag of tricks. Haven't seen a beheading video in some time, and thought for a microsecond that they might have seen how that was hurting their cause more than helping Should have known better than to think they might have realized that faith is supposed to instill tolerance and acceptance.

efarns93
efarns93 5pts

“@SOFREP: The New Al Qaeda: Lashkar-e-Jhangvi The Not-So-New Kids on the Block in Pakistan wp.me\/p2m8l5-4DSNiH” read and heed folks

balut
balut 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

Just having a difficult time wrapping my head around this Sunni versus Shia conflict.

 

* 2 Sunni Terror groups,  LeT and LeJ are known to be targeting Shia muslims in Pakistan.

* While we have Iran's President Ahmadi-nutjob (a Shia) having a cushy friendship with Eqypt's President Morsi (a Sunni). * However, Iran's government (predominantly Shia) is known to provide support to Syria's Assad to defeat the Sunni rebellion in Syria.

* Then we have Iran providing logistical support to Hamas, a Sunni terror group in Israel.

We've always known that Sunnis don't like Shiites and vice-versa, so why do we see instances where they support each other especially when it comes to Israel?  I know there's that "enemy of my enemy is my friend" thing, but you don't see Sunni countries like Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Oman, UAE giving support or having friendly relationships with Iran.

LauraWalkerKC
LauraWalkerKC moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

 @balut The Sunni/Shia conflicts are layered.  There is the fundamental sectarian dispute, which began immediately when Mohammad died and they bickered over his successor.  But there are also political, regional, local disputes.  In some places Sunnis and Shiites get along in a "live and let live" religious sense.  But throughout the region, whenever one sect has power, it quickly devolves into emasculating, then abusing the other.  The back and forth grievances are impossible to catalog in a post - really, it would take a book.

 

The Saudis are heavy funders of Sunni militants.

 

Don't forget, after we took down Saddam Hussein, a Sunni regime, the democratic elections in Iraq resulted in a Shia government.  This puts Iraq and Iran, in government/regime terms, on friendly footing. 

 

They all hate Israel.  If a full scale war broke out with Israel, you would see some nose holding unity real quick.

mitch175644
mitch175644 5pts

@LauraWalkerKC Lashkar is the Pashtun word for traditional militia and noted in pashtuwali usually by tribe\/sub-tribe..militia of...

OS2SAR
OS2SAR 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

Effing Savages....

kcarmical
kcarmical 5pts

@LauraWalkerKC Pls excuse my ignorance, but what's the signif of the "Lashkar-e" prefix in these groups? I see it often.

Render64
Render64 5pts

@kcarmical "army" or "army camp" depending on usage and language\/dialect.@LauraWalkerKCC

LauraWalkerKC
LauraWalkerKC 5pts

@Render64 @kcarmical Render is correct. So Lashkar-e-Jhangvi is the Army of Jhangvi (LeJ is named after a person)

LauraWalkerKC
LauraWalkerKC 5pts

@kcarmical @Render64 There are a lot of these groups who are very active & violent that haven't had much US press.

kcarmical
kcarmical 5pts

@LauraWalkerKC @Render64 Thanks! Until recently, I'd never heard of the others; I only knew of LeT.

Tango9
Tango9 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 6 Like

Great article Laura.  I watched a video of a group of LeT stopping a busload of shiites in Pakistan.  Men, women, and children.  They ordered them off and butchered everyone.  I watched whole video gritting my teeth, but it's something that needs to be seen at least one time.

 

As you stated, the beheadings are brutality in the extreme.  At one point I saw someone beheaded with a knife no bigger than something you'd have in your kitchen.  When the camera panned back, the LeT person who committed this atrocity couldn't have been over 13 years old.

 

Having read Chris' book, and how he references these people as savages hit home.  Savages.  An entire culture of sociopaths/psychopaths who care nothing for human life.

BrandonWebb
BrandonWebb moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 6 Like

Watch the video and realize how radical of an ideology we're up against.

Grigori
Grigori 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @BrandonWebb The region of the  Af-Pak border is far more dangerous than Afghanistan. Even the Pakistani Army has to rely on technological and numerical superiority to take them out. 

 

Somalia is a picnic destination compared to Waziristan. It is great the US is sending drones instead of SOF, I don't have the guts to see any soldier go through stuff that I don't want to name.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @BrandonWebb

 Not only us but places as divergent as Iran and India are in these guys crosshairs. With what they have done recently in Hyderabad and JK they could push far enough that another war breaks out between India and Pak. And those Pak nukes are secure, right? World better take notice, sooner or later someone will need to take care of these guys. Im sure they have '14 marked off on the old day planner.

Grigori
Grigori 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  IMO the govt's on both the Indian and Pakistani side are trying their best to ensure that any conflict does not arise. It seems and is an widely accepted assertion that the terrorists want India and Pakistan to go to war because in such a case unofficially they will fight India together with the Pakistani Army. It happened in the past in Kargil conflict of 1999.

 

But to the best of my knowledge they hate Americans, British and Israelis the MOST.  Keep your citizens far far away from these places(remember Daniel Pearl??) and I hope US assets are very secure in that region. What happened in Benghazi pissed me off, don't want to and wish to see something like that again.

Old PH2
Old PH2 5pts

@Grigori@ArcticWarrior

I was very curious to read this:

http://www.siliconindia.com/news/business/Iran-Using-India-For-Clandestine-Activities-US-nid-142660-cid-3.html/1/2?utm_source=clicktrack&utm_medium=banner&utm_campaign=mostcommented

I understand Iran and Pakistan co-operating on the new pipeline, but the ISI backing of the Taliban should remind Tehran that the Pakistani's are not "really" friends of the Ayatollah.  I mean WTF?  Is Iran just aiming for regional instability no matter what the outcome?  Isn't that essentially playing Russian Roulette on a National scale?

LauraWalkerKC
LauraWalkerKC moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @Grigori In Part 2 I'll get into this - but you are right - the convicts have been running things.  Literally.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @Grigori  @LauraWalkerKC

 Excellent, thank you !

Grigori
Grigori 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 6 Like

 @ArcticWarrior The young officers indeed are in line with your thought process regarding SF and the US as a whole. The old guys are pissed because of the events during the cold war regarding US support towards Pakistan but hey we were on the Soviet side during that time, so all sides had their own problems.

 

Things have changed since 1991, especially post 9/11. There might be a small fraction of Indians that might not hold the US well but they are all fueled on Cold War era junk. With China growing and their friendship towards Pakistan, we need the US more than ever.

 

As far as Pakistan's mindset is concerned, if the blasts aren't a lesson then they better sort their shit out, they are at a loss. The chances of full scale war are pretty large, if one sees the map and reads post WW2 history of that region then they'd wish for no war. Think of it India, China, Pakistan all sharing borders, having nukes, big militaries and an unstable A'stan in the region. The threat in reality is equally or maybe more dangerous than North and South Korea.

Grigori
Grigori 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 7 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @LauraWalkerKC AW, for this we'd have to go way back to 1999. I'd start off with the question to anyone - What do you think is one of the reasons that the terrorists are pissed off  with the Pakistani Government? Aren't these the same guys who supported them once upon a time?

 

So lets push the clock back to 1995 and 1999.  Its 1995, 6 years ago the Soviets left A'stan in shame, there's civil war and warlords are fighting each other to end up as the boss. The word Taliban still isn't that famous, those who know them say that they are just a small group of Islamic students some of whom fought against the Soviets. One of the jobs of this Taliban is to protect Pakistani Trading trucks that need to pass A'stan in order to reach Central Asia. These trucks are being stopped and looted, the ISI then recruits this small student group to help them. The idea works well, at the same time it is noticed that these  guys are Pashtuns who'd fight the bigger warlords who are Uzbek,Tajik minorities. The reason Pakistan wants them to fight is simple: the Indians and Russians are helping these minority warlords, if these guys come out as top dog then its bad because our enemies will have a say in A'stan and they don't even share a fucking border like we do. Meanwhile the Talibanis especially their nutjob leader is having dreams of ruling the Afghans. So some sort of deal is formed , the ISI say you guys fight, we'll support and in return let us have some say and leave us alone. The deal works out well the Taliban rule A'stan and the Pak. Govt. officially recognizes them.

 

Fast forward to 1999, the Taliban are still ruling supreme in A'stan, the Pakistani support is still there. Pakistan has just moved on from Democracy to Martial Law, the ruler is now the General of the Army, Musharraf. Musharraf believes in helping them as long as his Army has say in A'stan and rivals like India,Russia are kept in check, he is jolly well fine. The West cares a little AQ just bombed up their embassies in Africa, so in a limited sense they are doing what they can but they haven't woken up. Terrorist groups have no issues with Pakistan to the extent that local Mosques like the Lal Masjid preach radical beliefs. 

 

2 years later the world is shocked, 3000 innocent Americans are killed in their own country, The Americans have woken up and will rain hell on those who hurt them. Part of their plan will require assistance from Pakistan in terms of logistics,Intelligence and stopping support to their beloved terror groups. Musharraf has to agree else he'll receive the ass kicking of his life plus he is being offered a truck load of money. So he agrees and his own Army that once covertly fought with the Muhj against the Soviets, with the Taliban against Ahmed Shah Massoud is now fighting the Taliban. So , the Taliban and other militants are pissed off with this back stabbing, what further enrages them is the Lal Masjid raid in 2007. They realize that now the Pakistani government will fight against them, the bombings that we see now there are a result of all this.

 

Pak. was let off the rails because the 5 years that made our current enemies so strong were the 5 years they were pals with Pakistan and they weren't damaging us pretty badly.

 

The sentiment in India is Pakistan is a legit nation but their claim to Kashmir is total BS and their support to terrorist activities in that region pisses us off. They can live, die or burst into flames, we don't care. Their ancestors wanted a country they happily got one. It is their job to uplift it and keep peace at their end.

LauraWalkerKC
LauraWalkerKC moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @Grigori Mumbai was a huge wake-up call to the Indian military.  They were totally unprepared for the organization and scale of that LeT operation.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @Grigori

Good analysis on your part.

 

 I heard that the younger Indian Officers are more in line with our thought processes regarding SOF then the generations before were and very much so look to cross training and learning. Im not sure what India's SOF budgets are but as they grow in stature on the world stage it should increase if the old guard would actually listen. Pakistans mindset wont change, and maybe that will be there undoing.

I can see the ISI using these groups to bleed India dry by a thousand small cuts, knowing they are no match head to head. Sooner or later the Proxy War will erupt full scale.

Grigori
Grigori 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @ArcticWarrior Earlier some of the Higher ups in the Indian Army weren't so much into SOF, the effectiveness of SOF in the Kashmir insurgency and Mumbai has changed that view.

 

It is great that the US-India are into SOF exercises mainly between the Army SF on both sides. Among the best things that Indian can learn from the US is the JSOC structures and SMU's, because India has a big Military in terms of Manpower and the budget is going up. From what I see the US Spec Ops structure of SMU-SF-SEALs-SOF can be implemented only in a Military that has a lot of Manpower and funding. Like I said there is a lot we can learn from the US in this field, a recent article written by a former 3-star Indian SF General mentioned that even if in terms of Manpower Indian SOF matches the US SOF but in terms of effectiveness we aren't even one-tenth in comparison the US SOF.

 

The ISI Jihad from the way I see it has three motives, one being to keep irritating India, the second being to keep the Afghans on their toes and the third to reap profit in whatever way they can, if you'd remember in '94-'95 when the Taliban were in their infancy, the ISI used them so that Pakistani Trading trucks could safely pass through to Central Asia. The radical elements mostly leave the ISI because the ISI and Pak. Army are govt. agencies and siding on radical issues is going to and has dented their image big time.  So the radical supporters end up leaving and the scary part is that they join hands with the Jihadi's.

 

If one gleans over the Pakistani Army raid on the Lal Masjid in 2007, then there is a positive and negative side to it. The positive side being that given the fact that the population,infrastructure,foreign  and economic interests of Pakistan lie mainly in the cities, the govt. will do whatever it can to defend them, to the point that they raided a god damn Mosque to eliminate threats. The negative side is that the regions like Waziristan are of not much interest to them, so the most effort is to eliminate those that they can to avoid suicide attacks, it is negative because this lack of attention lets groups like LeJ blossom and do what they fucking wish to do.

 

Now compare this in contrast to a not so developed area like Balochistan, an area of proven rich mineral deposits where they are fighting an under funded insurgency and going bonkers on the RUMINT that Indians are supporting the insurgency. They do this because of interests/profits that this area can give once total control has been established. If Waziristan ever becomes like these then get ready to see the awesome effort the Pakis do to fight these morons, it'd top the list of Time Magazine Surprises of the year.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @LauraWalkerKC  @Grigori

 How did we let PAK, especially the ISI get so far off the rails? Did it really accelerate post Musharraf? Seems like the convicts are running the prison.

 I know there is a sentiment in India that PAK isnt a legitimate nation as the Crown carved it out of India so they could still have a prescence in the area. Seems to me that anytime you create artificial boundries and areas on a map trouble follows.

LauraWalkerKC
LauraWalkerKC moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @Grigori  @ArcticWarrior The whole area was a British Colony for centuries - pulled into British India.  In 1947 they created two separate countries - India and Pakistan.  They've gone to war a few times. Pakistan declared itself an Islamic Republic in the 1950s.  War w/ India in 65. And civil wars w/in Pakistan.  The Bengal region (E. Pak) became Bangladesh in 1971.

 

The area is inherently tribal, sectarian, and violent.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Grigori

 Those are very good points you bring up about the Jihaddi's. The ISI has there own Jihad and Allah has his in that region.

Over the last few months Ive noticed the Indian Army getting more into SOF and Drones. Recently the Indian Army cross trained with Group in Alaska going over things that we applied in the HK area. After the Parliament attacks and Mumbai, India is slowly starting to come around to our shared pov, that the Jihaddi's need to go...

BrandonWebb
BrandonWebb moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

 @ArcticWarrior The problem with Iran is that it's controlled by religious extremists that don't represent the majority. Kind of like Israel...

Tango9
Tango9 5pts

 @BrandonWebb  @ArcticWarrior *fund

Tango9
Tango9 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @BrandonWebb  @ArcticWarrior Israel doesn't oppress its populace nor does it fun terror groups or shout "Death to America" so I don't quite see a parallel argument there.

LauraWalkerKC
LauraWalkerKC moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 7 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @BrandonWebb LeJ, LeT, SSP - all of these groups cross pollinate with the Taliban and al-Qaeda.  Over 80,000 fighters have gone from Pakistan to train in Taliban/AQ camps in Afghanistan.  They are Sunni radicals, so Iran is a natural target because it is a Shia theocracy.  The major dispute with India is the Kashmir region, which is mostly Muslim, but 2/3rds of it is under Indian control.  It's sort of like the rift in Ireland that way.

LauraWalkerKC
LauraWalkerKC moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 6 Like

 @Grigori  @ArcticWarrior As creative as the IRA can get (and we don't hear about the really ugly stuff here), they still don't quite compare to the medieval insanity of jihadis.

Grigori
Grigori 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @LauraWalkerKC But I'd say that the IRA are not even 10% as crazy as the scums.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @LauraWalkerKC    @BrandonWebb

I like the IRA comparison, never considered that pov. 

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