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Home » SOF News » Special Forces still grinding away at corrupt Afghan officials…

Special Forces still grinding away at corrupt Afghan officials…

by Jack Murphy · March 14, 2012 · Posted In: SOF News, Special Operations, USASOC
SFAfghan
From David Axe, writing for AOL:

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In Afghanistan formal institutions such as banks, police and courts are under-developed, but traditional bodies – the non-binding shura councils and the decision-making jirga groups, for example – are highly refined and widely-respected. It would be quicker and more lasting to embed reform efforts in the shura and jirga, the Special Forces officer says: “Let’s work within the legal framework that already exists.” But foreign advisers aren’t adept at navigating the subtle processes of the shura and jirga and tend to fall back on the traditions and attitudes of their home cultures. “We attempt to Westernize but we don’t even realize we’re doing it,” the officer says.

Most SF Teams these days are conducting VSO or Village Stability Operations in Afghanistan.  A friend of mine tells me they are exactly the same tactics we attempted in Vietnam except perhaps the strategic hamlet aspect.  The problem is that every single commander on the ground has a different conception of what VSO is.  Some are dead set against any kind of Direct Action needed to protect the villages that they are supposed to be stabilizing.

Sadly, much like Iraq, the war has devolved into a large scale face-saving measure in which the guys on the ground know that they are grinding their gears until the withdrawal.

Read the full article, U.S. Special Forces Take Down Corrupt Afghan Officials, One At A Time.

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LCpl X
LCpl X 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

Disrespect is having sex with another Marine's wife, she tapes it and sends it to her husband in Afghanistan. That's disrespect.

 

What we're doing here isn't even inter unit rivalry, it's branch rivalry, which doesn't get any more general than that, it's like East coast vs. West coast, for you guys to be genuinely offended, is a little gay, by that I mean homosexual.

 

I have never resorted to name calling, I have only presented ideas, maybe hurtful, eye opening, but I have backed every single one.

 

Of all you guys who took offense, probably Recon6 is the only I actually respect (him and Jack, just base on their postings). Consider it dropped for this thread, sir. 

 

But let me pivot to a question about Vietnam and also since this original article mentioned hamlet strategy in Vietnam, since you and your brother were there, serving in the Army and Marines. 

 

Both the articles illustrate the Marines' view re Vietnam, that the war was lost because the Army didn't, couldn't fight a COIN war, what's your take on this, since you have your experience and also your brothers, I'm sure you've talked about this at length. Thanks!

 

Tango9
Tango9 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @LCpl X is this motherf... Are you still talking?  We're done here.

LCpl X
LCpl X 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Tango9 

 

Does this mean I'm not invited anymore to the Colorado Springs Broadmoor Golf resort 18 holes SOFREP meet-up you're setting up?

Recon6
Recon6 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @LCpl X First, we never lost that war, the Pols did with the pressure applied by the population with their asinine protests. The Army and Corps were sent into AO's, fought battles, packed up and moved to another one.  As for my job it was find em, fix em, and fuck em, thus my Spooky reference.

Nothing greater than Victor Charles surrounding your team and you call in CAS and the whole fucking world comes to an end!  I did not work with many S. Vietnamese, they (troops) were the biggest thieves in the world.  When we left the wire they would raid our camp and take hammocks, packs etc. and deny it when we returned.  Worked a lot with PRU, Yards who absolutely hated the Vietnamese, North or South.  Little people carried cross bows and antiquated firearms for Christ's sake!  They were fearless and loyal.  Tried Chieu Hoi's, put the bastards on point because you didn't want them at your back, they only lasted a couple of missions and then wouldn't go out again.  As an aside, we tried dogs/handlers but the dogs made too much noise!  Plus we had to carry water for the dogs and we Never had enough water for ourselves to start with!

 This is from a poor white trash city boy that answered his Country's call.  Found out later how fucked up it all was.  Burned all my military shit when I returned home because I was so disgusted at how stupid I had been.  It has taken many years to even open this book.  Sorry to lay this down on you, but the Marines, Recon, and SF I worked with would Never have spewed this Inter-Service shit.  Man, we were all fucked but we remain loyal to one another.  I banter that Army v. Corps shit with my brother but it is All with the Utmost Respect.  I apply the same to everyone on this site unless I learn they are posers, then they can kiss my ass.  Again, I enjoy your posts, Usually, lol  Semper Fi  6-out

LCpl X
LCpl X 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Recon6 

 

Thanks a lot, man, that was a good overview, rubber meets the road account, I hope the SOFREP editors will get more stories from you. As for respect, of course that's a given, man, but maybe it's the way I write. I have buddies from HS who joined Army, Navy, etc. we trash talk all the time. Good stuff.

David Sweeney
David Sweeney 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @LCpl X 

 

Thank you for that article by Carl Prine. That was the best I have read about the current situation in Afghanistan and where we now stand.

LCpl X
LCpl X 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

I put Carl Prine's work up there with Chivers, both former Marines. No problemo, glad you liked the article.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

The reality is that Jeffersonian Democracies are not born over night. Look how long it took us when we were a struggling Country, and we shared the principle western culture of the Mother Country. Why we keep trying to instill these ideas in cultures that dont want it is beyond me. Same mistake over and over. Afghanistan is not a country. I mean the UN says it has borders so therefore its a country but the reality is its a loose group of clans run by chieftains who only know this psuedo-feudal way of life.They have no allegiance to anybody but themselves. Northern Alliance, Eastern Alliance, its all crap from the big spin factory. We, meaning DC, dont get there culture and way of life and they could care less about ours. The Sheik is dead, AQ is broken down its time to move out.

Stewart Nusbaumer
Stewart Nusbaumer 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @ArcticWarrior

 Right, Afghanistan is not a country, just a land where some people live in sub-national groups. Rebuilding Europe was relatively easy because it only had to be rebuilt and the people were skilled. Afghanistan has nothing to rebuild, it has to be built from scratch, and the only skill the men have is shooting foreigners, if not foreigners then their next door neighbors, if no next door neighbors then smacking their wifes. Not the stock to built a country.

KineticFury
KineticFury 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

I swear our strategy in A-stan is based off the hokey-pokey dance. We need to get all-in or all-out!

 

"...You put your right hand in,

You put your right hand out,

You put your right hand in,

And you shake it all about,

You do the hokey pokeyand you turn yourself around

 

That what it's all about."

 

 

Tango9
Tango9 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @KineticFury clusterfuck is such a great phrase, but it falls so short.  1st prize to anyone that can describe this fucking worm wrestle in 3 or less words.

Old PH2
Old PH2 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @KineticFury Seriously, I thought it was the Chicken dance.  But what do I know.

KineticFury
KineticFury 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Old PH2 Haha - depends on you ask!

 

 

Old PH2
Old PH2 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

I keep forgetting that it was the Marine Corps back in the 1920's that came up with the "Small War" doctrine.  To bad that lesson was lost on "Big Army." And the JCOS. 

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Old PH2

 I think it was Maj Robert Rogers in the 1750's who started "The Small War" doctrine for us... : )

LCpl X
LCpl X 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  

 

Guerrilla Warfare, Insurgency, maybe... but Small Wars connote actually setting up gov'ts, constabularies, civil affairs type stuff, which the Marines did during the banana wars--they were running countries out there in the 20 and 30s, man.

 

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/swm/index.htm

(You don't even have to read the whole manual, just take note of the chapters, they had it down to a science, it was resurrected during Vietnam, but wasn't really studied until Iraq.)

 

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @LCpl X

 We say that now, then (45-49) it wasnt thought to be in the bag.

LCpl X
LCpl X 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @ArcticWarrior 

 

I guess when I say the Banana wars were different was that you pretty much just had Marines doing everything.

 

Douglas MacArthur had everything at his disposal, so it would have been more of a surprised had it failed. the only thing that would have warranted a potential counter to us, was the Japanese communist party and the newly minted CIA took care of that before it even matured. From diplomats to businesses, Japan was pretty much in the bag.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @LCpl X

 And you left out they were and still are a vital Allie, thanks to Dougie Macs deft handling post war, during Korea and Vietnam.

LCpl X
LCpl X 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @ArcticWarrior 

 

I doubt the probable full blown insurgency idea, once they saw their emperor bow down, it was done. Free ride thanks to American tax payers, then imitate and improve on our ideas, that's how they stood back up again.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chrysanthemum_and_the_Sword Unlike Iraq, the cut the head off the snake analysis was actually true with the Japanese.

 

the Banana wars were a different kinda wars.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @LCpl X

 Dougie Mac used what he learned in 1901 in the Phillipines for his Institutional strategy from island hopping warfare up to and including the reconstruction of Japan. Look at how the Army(and SeaBees) helped rebuild and restore Japan after the wars end. It was a massive Civil Affairs project, Governance, Law Enforcemnent and restoration of civil society that could have had a full blown insurgency.

LCpl X
LCpl X 5pts

 @ArcticWarrior 

 

I'm familiar with that war and also the Indian wars, but I don't think a clear doctrine or manual came out of those wars, something institutional. Although bits and pieces were studied for Iraq.

 

I know 1899-1903 was our war with the Christianized (Catholic) Philippinos, who accepted defeat rather easily, since their upper class traded for their status quo, the lower class fell after, with a series of banditry lasting to late 1909-1910. So they pretty much governed themselves answering to the military governor.

 

1903-1912 (13) were the Moro wars, I think COIN was tried but they ended up doing search and destroy missions, was eventually diverted by WWI. Wouldn't say it was religious in nature, more irredentist, they were just fighting for their land back. The Catholic Philippinos inherited this war, we are there now too.

 

If there are actual manuals or doctrine that came out of the Indian wars and the Philippine-American war, I'd be open to it.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @LCpl X

 Didnt General Pershing do all that you mnention in the Phillipine-Amnerican War? Where the US Army engaged in Civil Affairs, Civil Governance and Public Works starting in about 1900 while simnultaneously fighting an religious/ideological insurgency?

 

 See: The U.S. Army and Counterinsurgency in the Philippine War, 1899-1902

KineticFury
KineticFury 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Old PH2 http://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/A-Decade-That-Changed-Everything-10-13-2011.asp

Old PH2
Old PH2 5pts

 @KineticFury Enjoyed reading that page, thanks for the info.

LCpl X
LCpl X 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

As in Vietnam then, today’s directive for ISAF is pretty clear —  we must be seen handing over security to Afghans.  Three weeks of cursory training and some marginal oversight by Kabul and ISAF conspire to make the ALP initiative vastly more efficient at our new goal, even if it might create as many headaches as the initiative portends to solve, even if it doesn’t often seal the security gaps opening like a vast maw before the Taliban irregulars, even if it’s served up with bumpersticker COIN aphorisms about bottom-up solutions and pseudo-expert testimony.

http://www.lineofdeparture.com/2012/03/13/the-afghan-endgame/

It no longer matters if we have a strategy to meet our once rosy foreign policy ends in the Hindu Kush.  We long ago discarded the larger goal of creating sustainable, durable and loyal Afghan National Security Forces.

 

The only thing that matters now is handing off, and we can hand off faster to ALP than we can the ANSF.  And the faster we gun the hand off program, the sooner our leaders can show “progress” and leave the longer  and far harder problems we’ve created to the Special Forces who must clean up this strategy mess they didn’t deserve.

 

(Kinda like COIN was done at the company level in Iraq among Army, with various iterations, until a big COIN strategy. The Marines have always wanted Afghanistan for themselves, ie SOCOM and Marines, not Army. This "handing off" phase, regular Army should head home, while the Marines handle the after party, maybe there'll be less of these crazy run amok incedents.)

 

Stewart Nusbaumer
Stewart Nusbaumer 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @LCpl X

 The clock is always ticking. There is only so much time to fight a war. Only so much time to spill your country's blood and the nation's money. And who is normally pushing the clock is not the military, but the public. And that is what we have now. The American people say time is coming to an end very soon. They don't want to hear how well we are doing in Afghanistan or how the US military can now see light.... The clock is running out. End of discussion. We get out the best we can, leave as many behind that we can.  

 

Now, for that other nonsense about Army and Marine differences, that's usual dribble.   

LCpl X
LCpl X 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Stewart Nusbaumer

 Yup, we have all the fancy RESCO watches, but they have all the time in the world.

 

As for dribble, it's not dribble if it's true. Who gave birth to the Awakening which turned Iraq in our favor? Marines. Which doctrine came handy? the Small Wars manual. Which had the best use of civil affairs? Marines. Pound for pound whose been successfully pounding thru the COIN doctrine (even though any COIN abroad is a waste of blood/money to begin with)? Marines. Which branch understands the whole idea of the Strategic Cpl/Strategic Knucklehead better? Marines. Small unit leadership? Marines. Dribble that. Army/Air Force will be sitting the next 20 yrs out, while Navy/Marine Corps and SOCOM will go to work in CE, EA, SE Asia, S. Asia, S. America and AF, am I right or am I right?

Old PH2
Old PH2 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @LCpl X Yep!  Some poor Crazy SOB had the ride of his life, they tried it with several types, I think the Luftwaffe tried it with F-104 Starfighters.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Old PH2  @LCpl X

" It makes me remember the Rocket equipped F-100's the were going to mount on Semi  trailers and launch from remote sites."  

WTF!!!!! The Cold War bore the strangest, whacked out ideas. Did they ever actually attempt that? 

Old PH2
Old PH2 5pts

 @ArcticWarrior  @LCpl X Some where I have an Aerograph book that talks about that.  Can you Imagine?  It makes me remember the Rocket equipped F-100's the were going to mount on Semi trailers and launch from remote sites.  This is before we had Harriers.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Old PH2  @LCpl X

 Didnt I see something about a U2 on a Carrier???? Those were some crazy times for experimentation.

LCpl X
LCpl X 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @ArcticWarrior 

1. The other side won, so by definition, we lost. Right?

 

2. Collapse of the South, yes.

 

3. I guess if you buy into the domino theory, but you gotta remember Ho Chi Minh was already ours, he worked with us during WWII, seeked our help for independence, not unlike the Spanish-American war (Pacific theatre).

 

I get that we won the Cold War, but many also say the USSR bled itself dry. Definitely look forward to visit in Vietnam in another WestPac.

 

Other stuff, you're right, man.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @LCpl X  @ConnorT  @Recon6

 Whats the definition of we lost Vietnam? That the South collapsed to communist forces? In the big picture as time moves on and politics fade from history, didnt we succeed in stopping the spread of Communism? We were just one country short of our bigger global goal at that time. I always felt saying we lost Vietnam was a short sale of the guys who did an amazing job in what was a proxy US v. USSR fight for ideology. And like all good Empires the Vietnamese are our friends now. Go figure

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @LCpl X  @Tango9

 Theres always something to learn, from a skirmish with squirters in AF all the way back to the conquests of the Sumerian Kings. Thats what this place excels in, knowledge base.

  Warfare is evolutionary from the first CroMag crackin heads of a rival tribe to whats going on in AF as we speak. Your just espousing a little too hard on the branch dick swinging. You have a good grasp of History overall, present your ideas in a less my team is better then your team schtick. The Stars and Flags learned from the pooled resources of all the Americans who went before us, from all the journals or letters home, to personal experiences as well as the Field Manuals from 100 years ago. Stay on target and the pros here, and there are some big leaguers here, will be more inclined to listen to your theories, and has been stated previously, be respectful.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @LCpl X

 No its not disrespect but the branch rivalry thing is amatuer and beneath you and is a disservice to the "Team" effort. It takes a combined effort. From the REMFs who see to it that rounds and batteries and water make it to where they need to be all the way to the big leaguers who you admire we all have a job to do

As for the next 20 years you dont know maybe CVNs become obsolete due to advances in missle tech? Maybe a heavy conflict busts out and Army Armor is needed by the ROKs? What will you do throw SOCOM at Dear Leaders Divisions as they roll through Seoul? Or the J-20 or T-50 really are that good and we dont quite have air domninance and the Infantry prays the 22 can keep the skies clear for CAS? Leave that weak ass rivalry stuff on other web sites and concentrate on your better ideas.

LCpl X
LCpl X 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  

 

These things come organic to any Marine TFs going out, that's the lesson they learned in Vietnam. 

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @LCpl X  @ConnorT

 With the A6 long gone, the Harrier being shown the door and the F35 nowhere near being operational Im pretty sure the AF is going to have a lot requests for work. And also pretty sure that any 0311 isnt going to care if its a Bone dropping the steel or an 18 as long as its on target, Would you turn down Big Army Armor attached to the Corps if you were on the ground?, as has been done in the past, at the Marines request.

Tango9
Tango9 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Recon6  @JackMurphyRGR 8 of my 13 years were spent as support.  I attribute this to my recruiter being an asshole and me being an idiot.  One of those specialties that remains 70% manned so there was a better chance of me being the next Virgin Mary than retraining out of it.  The 5 years I did as an MTI (was a 3 year tour at the time) was only due to the connections I made through an amazing commander.

Recon6
Recon6 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Tango9  @JackMurphyRGR In my time a REMF was an attitude!

Not everyone was created to go outside the wire.  There were awesome guys that never ventured into Indian Country but they made sure we had the very best kit available, some of it 'Borrowed"!

Tango9
Tango9 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Recon6  @JackMurphyRGR go easy on us REMFs.  All that air conditioning made me dizzy.

JackMurphyRGR
JackMurphyRGR moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Recon6 Sorry about that, your name came up when I wanted to reply on the thread.  That was directed to LCpl X, not you.

Recon6
Recon6 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @JackMurphyRGR Whoa Bro, WTF?  I come from a family of Marines, and IF you read My comments you would note I don't denigrate Anyone!  You put the hammer down on the wrong dude.  I might have been Army but I sure as hell wasn't a REMF !  6-out

JackMurphyRGR
JackMurphyRGR moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Recon6 I'm sorry to wake up and find out that the comments once again devolved into one Marine's penis envy.  Write your Congressman, the vets here simply are not interested in any of it.

Recon6
Recon6 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @LCpl X I wanted to one thing clear also, My Big Bro, the Marine, while he ate steak most nites, he ran SOG missions into the most hostile areas imaginable!  Lost a Lot of good friends, so forgave him for being a dumbass Marine MasterSgt !

Recon6
Recon6 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @LCpl X  @ConnorT LCplX, I Never berate Any Branch of Service, we are All brothers.  Couple of points, My time was quite diff than yours (guess?)

There were 'little people' in VN, read Bru & Rhade that could hump ruck thru terrain you could not imagine, again, no disparaging remark ref;A-Stan, but if you ran missions from FOB2, Central Highlands it was usually triple canopy and nothing but mutha fukn Mountains.  We took all day to move less than 100 yds.!

And it was usually a couple of Americans with a few indigs to accomplish the most b.s. missions imaginable.  Sorry to ramble, but this Corps Bullshit v. Everyone else stinks.  We Are Brothers!!  Come to the Speedway in N.C on the 31st of March for the V. N. Vets Welcome Home, We Are All Brothers !!  6-out

LCpl X
LCpl X 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Old PH2

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfwJJD5jGXk

 

Found the youtube vid, looks cool. Thanks!

Old PH2
Old PH2 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @LCpl X  I know they did testing in the early 60's on the Forestal using Jato and landing them on the deck.  I believe the Nimitz was to be a "BINGO" for the C-130's bringing out the Hostages from Tehran.  Pretty sure your right about AC-130 being heavy.  But the Navy was looking to use the C-130 for "COD" duty, so they would be heavy too.

LCpl X
LCpl X 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Old PH2  

 

Spookies on a carrier? Has that ever happened? Too heavy no?

 

Either way these gunships belong with AFSOC, SOCOM so they're staying. 

Old PH2
Old PH2 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @LCpl X  @ConnorT I have old buddies that served on the Nimitz during Eagle Claw, you can launch a C-130 from a carrier.  Just sayin'.....

LCpl X
LCpl X 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @ConnorT 

 

^NO disrespect meant

LCpl X
LCpl X 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @ConnorT 

 

Like I said, most of what I say I back. Those articles about Vietnam paint a very good picture of how we lost Vietnam, and I think it applies in Afghanistan. Re AF/Army I'm just repeating what other military analysts have written about. 

 

Again, disrespect meant. No need to get all butt hurt again. Rebutt or just read or not. 

 

 @Recon6 

 

C130 gunships are bad ass, man, I agree, but how about the rest of the airforce post Afghanistan? Like you said, I'm not the only Marine that feels this way, for good reason too. 

 

 

Recon6
Recon6 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @LCpl X Hey Bro, have you Ever seen "Spooky" work When you really needed him to Save Your Ass?  Come on man, I usually agree with your observations, but this Corps Bullshit v. The World is ridiculous.  6-out

Connor31
Connor31 5pts

 @LCpl X Stop talking, not only are your theories way off base and have little to do with reality, you're making yourself look like an idiot.

Recon6
Recon6 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @LCpl X LOL, you sound Just like my brother, Retired MSgt. Marine Corps,  Gained 25 lbs working Marine admin in V.N. while I 127 lbs total

running Recon. !  Yep, Always Marines First, but he was a Rifleman!

LCpl X
LCpl X 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

the branch that has proven time and again the lack of small unit leadership to me is the regular Army, in Vietnam books have been written, in Iraq now Afghanistan, most journalists who have the vantage of comparison have stated time and gain, the Marines get COIN much more than regular Army. I've already stated why.

 

China is still 20 yrs or more away, if you have to pick which branch to downsize as far as ground forces go, the best pick is the Army. In the event of a major war, you can recruit and train new infantry battalions quicker than you can design and build ships.

 

The Navy/Marine Corps/SOCOM is the best suited for the next 20 yrs. The Army/Air Force duo took us thru the cold war and up to the first Iraq war, but a more nibble movable force is what is need now. That's not disrespect, right?

LCpl X
LCpl X 5pts

 Just because it's hard to swallow, doesn't mean it's disrespect, it's just hard to swallow.  Questions?

 

How will the Air Force play a significant role post-Afghanistan? There's cyber command, there's space command, what else? Bombers on standby? They'll be downsized the most.

 

How's the Army going to justify these humungous bases, only causing local residents heart aches? It's not like they are an expeditionary force? Because Ron Paul's foreign policy/defense solutions are gaining popularity and the two branches best chosen to downsize are these.

 

How is that disrespect?

LCpl X
LCpl X 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Tango9 

 

By the way, 'the Recruit' was loosely based on a real CIA ops officer working as instructor at the Farm, he's the reason everyone going thru the Farm now, don't go with their names. He was caught at Dulles Airport, so I guess he wasn't scary judge of talent, or scary anything he sucked ass and cried like a baby when FBI cuffed him up.

 

The "Say hello to my little friend" from Scarface would probably been more appropriate ; )

 

LCpl X
LCpl X 5pts

 @Tango9 

 

So there's nothing to learn from those articles about Vietnam vis a vi Marines and Army's differing views and how that applies to Iraq then and especially Afghanistan now?

Tango9
Tango9 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @LCpl X LCpl, I'm going to give you some friendly advice.  I doubt you'll take it.  Here's my credentials:  I was a personnel specialist for 3 years in AWACS.  Deployed twice.  Then went off to push airmen through BMT for 5 years,  after that I ran an orderly room in AFSPC for 5 more.  Never pulled a trigger on a bad guy.  But I'll quote Al Pacino from "The Recruit:"  "I'm a scary judge of talent."   I just want you to know where I'm coming from.  I also know already that you're going to make a mistake when you read that and think I'm not qualified to comment.  That's ok.  It will be another in a long line of mistakes you've made.

You're acting like a 12-year old.  Not a professional.  Not a warrior.  End it.  Now.  No one here wants to debate what branch of service has the bigger dick, because, if you had even the slightest clue, you would understand that there are selfless mean by the thousands wearing 5 different uniforms and we all do what we do (or in my case, now, did) to the utmost of our ability without thought for personal gain or recognition.

You are a child.  stop being a child.  Better men, by measures that you cannot even fathom, are reading your words and they're dismissing you as just another dumbass.

 

Here's the advice part:  learn some fucking respect.

LCpl X
LCpl X 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

(There's a big difference in the way Marines fight and Army fights, it's historical and it applies today also.)

 

At a 1999 Vietnam War symposium held at the Vietnam Center at Texas Tech University, I asked Lt. Gen. Nguyen Dinh Uoc, a former NVA division commander and then a professor at the Vietnam Military History Institute, if he had ever encountered or heard about Marines who lived in the villages, assisting the people and teaching the PFs to fight. Uoc replied that he had, and that in his opinion the hamlets where Marines lived were of little help to his troops when they needed food, men or intelligence. He also stated that the NVA and the VC would attack the Marine hamlets only if they were an objective of a larger operation, such as the Tet Offensive, or if the villages disrupted their plans in any other way.http://www.historynet.com/marine-alternative-to-search-and-destroy.htmGeneral Uoc further commented that the Americans and local forces always fought bravely, and said the local VC had told him that in most of these hamlets the Marines 'had won the hearts of the people which is most important in a people's war. The larger American forces did not win the hearts of the people. Just the opposite, they destroyed their land. If the Americans and government of Vietnam had won the hearts of the people, the war would have been more difficult for us.'

Tango9
Tango9 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @ConnorT  @LCpl X  @LCpl Connor?  check 6.  Not worth it.  Let the wolves have him.

LCpl X
LCpl X 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @ConnorT 

 

Take a chill pill, or ambien, bro. I'm just stating facts. Guess who'll be taking the biggest chunk of these cuts? AF. Why? Not because these civilians don't know what they're talking about but because they understand the dwindling significance of the AF (post WWII to 2002, they were viewed as the most important of all branches), sure C130 gunships are useful, but CAS can be done by Navy and USMC just as well. 

Tango9
Tango9 5pts

 @ConnorT  @LCpl X  @LCpl Yeah, I kinda violated my whole rule.  Ah well, it'll sort itself out in the end, as these things tend to do.  I'm thinking it might happen a bit more quickly, here, given the nature of the beasts that inhabit this place.

Connor31
Connor31 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @Tango9  @LCpl X Lol Tango you should have kept the original post. @LCpl X Who the fuck cares what clueless civilians think especially about something as juvenile as "branch prestige". Newsflash the USMC is not anything special when compared to the other branches. "Army/Air Force will be sitting the next 20 yrs out" What the fuck is wrong with you? In 20 years I see the USMC focus shift to humanitarian missions instead of expeditionary warfare. I get it, you think your elite but don't put down other branches and don't compare yourself with Rangers, SEALs, and SF. If you ever come to Ft. Lewis, I will be happy to give you a reality bitch slap. Rear echelon mother fucker

Tango9
Tango9 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @LCpl X LCpl X, I'm sure you have gunny that would impart these words much more delicately than I can.  I offer you this:

"There is nothing more distressing or tiresome than a writer standing in front of an audience and reading his work." --William Gaddis

LCpl X
LCpl X 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 

 

http://www.gallup.com/poll/148127/Americans-Army-Marines-Important-Defense.aspx

 

Americans have named the Marines as the most prestigious branch of the armed forces in each of four surveys conducted between 2001 and 2011.

 

http://www.gallup.com/poll/11824/Which-Branch-Armed-Forces-Most-Important.aspx

 

the Marine Corps remains far ahead of any other branch on this prestige dimension. But the percentage mentioning the Air Force as most prestigious has dropped from 32% in May 2001 -- just four points less than mentioned the Marines that year -- to 20% this year.

LCpl X
LCpl X 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

(Funny how this still applies today, and why many would say Marines get these wars, while the Army never has and never will.)

 

Retired Marine general Edward H. Forney, then Public Safety Advisor with the U.S. Operations Mission in Saigon, felt the historical experiences of the Marine Corps in Haiti, the Dominican Republic, and Nicaragua had particular relevance to the insurgency in Vietnam. Forney said the Marines should link their pacification efforts with Vietnamese militia at the local village and hamlet level in order to provide the sort of operation around which the people of Vietnam would rally. According to Forney, lack of emphasis on this type of pacification was the major deficiency in operations then being conducted in Vietnam.[14]

 http://www.library.vanderbilt.edu/central/Brush/Uncommon-Ground-I-Corps.htm

Westmoreland felt the Marines were wrong. In June 1965, MACV requested that a total of forty-four allied battalions be committed to Vietnam. If South Vietnam were to survive, the U.S. had to have a hard-hitting offensive capability on the ground. Westmoreland wanted to forget about enclaves and take the war to the enemy with allied troops that could be maneuvered freely.[15] General Krulak observed that the Marines never felt the war stood to be won by grand maneuvers of large forces "in the Tannenberg or Chancellorsville image," but rather in the villages and hamlets.[16] Army General Harry Kinnard, commander of the 1st Air Cavalry, felt the Marines did not know how to fight on land and were reluctant to do so. General William Depuy of the MACV staff felt the Marines ". . . came in and just sat down and didn't do anything."[17] Different philosophies regarding the appropriate emphasis on pacification versus search and destroy operations would remain at the heart of the disagreements between the Army and the Marine Corps in Vietnam.

 

Tango9
Tango9 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @ConnorT  @LCpl X  @Stewart Nusbaumer I believe, Connor, you and I probably agree that as we get older we arrive at the conclusion that not saying anything means more than saying anything. 

LCpl X
LCpl X 5pts

 

Why aren‟t we the “Strongest Tribe” in Afghanistan? 

 

http://westwrite.com/

In Iraq, the Sunni tribes, with an established hierarchy and strong intra-clan ties, came over to our side because, as their leaders told me, they concluded we were the strongest tribe. It was no accident that the Sunni Awakening began in Anbar, where the Marines had hammered the insurgents - al Qaeda and Sunni tribes alike - year after year. In Afghanistan, the Pashtun sub-tribes have no such established hierarchy. Many villages have scant contact with the next. The Pashtuns will remain neutral and standoffish until they decide who is going to win. They are convinced the Taliban will return as we pull out. 

 

Connor31
Connor31 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Tango9  @LCpl X  @Stewart Nusbaumer HAHA Tango, there's so much bullshit written up there and I don't have the energy to deal with it.

Tango9
Tango9 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @LCpl X  @Stewart Nusbaumer you done?

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