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Home » Special Operations » Cyber-Terrorism: Pump Your Brakes

Cyber-Terrorism: Pump Your Brakes

by Jack Murphy · April 6, 2012 · Posted In: Special Operations
cyberwar
Have Submachine gun laptop, will travel

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While I believe that Brandon is directionally correct with his previous article on SOCOM’s lack of emphasis on cyber-terrorism, and I’ve tried to tip off our readers to emerging threats such as Duqu, I also want to take a few moments to cover the other side of this story.  The flip side is that cyber-terrorism is being over hyped like it is nobody’s business.  The reason for this is because the War on Terror is scaling down, the troops are coming home, budgets are going to get slashed, and even SOF units will be looking for a job in many instances.  I’m not saying it will be as bad as the post-Vietnam years…but it is still going to get ugly.

With the war winding down, defense planners and corporations are also going to be looking for a job as well.  This has some scary implications as many of them are going to look to apply what they learned from the War on Terror domestically by courting Law Enforcement agencies.  I believe we’ve already seen this happening although bio-metrics still haven’t entered the mainstream as Americans have even rejected the idea of National ID cards time and time again.

Brave New World…of schizoid paranoia

The holy grail for many defense companies will be cyber-security, but to get into this field there first has to be a need.  That need can be exaggerated or created.  DHS is perfectly happy to help of course.  Remember that industrial generator that they blew out as an example of what cyber-terrorists can accomplish?  Those familiar with SCADA systems knew that DHS had manually bypassed numerous safety features and fail safes.  Then Uncle Sam jumped the gun when that water pump went down, claiming that a hacker gummed up the works which also turned out to be false.  It’s almost like they want cyber-terrorism to be a real and existential threat to Americans.

I’m not saying that cyber-terrorism, or cyber-war if you prefer, isn’t real.  Far from it.  I am very concerned about hackers making off with classified government files as well as secrets in regards to corporate proprietaries.  However, this doesn’t mean we need to lock down the internet, pass ridicules legislation such as SOPA, or listen to anything Joe Lieberman has to say on the matter.  I simply think we should take a measured approach to this issue.

Monkey See; Monkey Do

There is also another aspect of this issue that I never see discussed.  We could forgo computer networks and other advanced communications systems and be done with the problem altogether but we’ve attached ourselves to this particular technology to the point that this is impossible.  I’m not a Luddite, I just want to point out that our enemies have also attached themselves to this technology.

Think about this for a moment.

Terrorists have jumped all over digital communications and that means it is easier to track them, trace them, follow them, and even to kill them than ever before.  It’s a double edged sword and shutting down the net via some of the proposed legislation out there also means our enemies go dark on commo nets that were once easily monitored.  This is why America has a vested interest in helping to build telecommunication infrastructure across the Middle East and elsewhere.

Hype-hype-hype

Take a look at this article from Thomas Rid, it offers an extensive take down regarding the exaggerated threats of cyber-terrorism.  Not one human KIA can be attributed to cyber-terrorism.  Past cyber-attacks haven’t been nearly as apocalyptic as initial reports in the media made them out to be.  Take a deep breath, man-bear-pig is not kicking down our door quite yet.

The only really successful infrastructure cyber-attack thus far has been Stuxnet, a computer virus that nearly all experts agree was created by a nation-state.  Stuxnet is almost certainly a covert operation run by American and Israeli intelligence agencies so it seems that the defense establishment is using its own cyber-attack as a justification for a larger budget for cyber-security.  Neat trick.

I’m in support of intelligent cyber-security measures, both defensive and offensive, but must admit that I’m somewhat disturbed by the direction that some want to take this field in.  One day a country such as Russia or China could launch a cyber attack on America and that is something we should be prepared for.  But before we all lose our heads, if we’ve got infrastructure that is this critical we should first make sure it is running from a control console that is not jacked into the internet or has USB plugs all over it.

Just a suggestion.

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Old PH2
Old PH2 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

Very interesting radio interview talking about 0day exploits, a short summary:

April 9, 2012  All Things Considered: NPR

Security firms like Vupen are selling hacking techniques to the highest bidder — typically government agencies — for six-figure price tags. Audie Cornish talks to Forbes reporter Andy Greenberg about the market for security vulnerabilities and who's buying them.

 

http://www.npr.org/2012/04/09/150304919/hacking-for-sale-a-lucrative-business

This comment has been deleted

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts

Is the big building up in Bluffdale going to be on the frontlines of the new manuever arena?

Tango9
Tango9 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

Jack makes a really good observation that the contractors (LM, Boeing, L3Comm, et al.) are going to be faced with some hard times rather quickly.  They've pumped billions into R&D that fairly quickly, there isn't going to be a DoD need for. 

 

When TSAT was cancelled, the race to provide a secure comm platform to fill the gaps was craziness, and now it seems to largely be OBE.

 

These companies are already losing people by the droves.  The wife works for a contractor, and she's hiring and got 60+ qualified resumes for 1 position.  The draw down on both sides is going to hurt.

 

The larger companies will be able to absorb it better than the small ones.  I left a contractor job about 18 months ago for unrelated reasons, but have come to find out the DoD support provided by the team I was on has shrunk significantly and the huge office building we occupied is now a ghost town.  Everyone is gone.

jeffreycarr
jeffreycarr 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

Jack, overall I agree with your assessment on cyber terrorism but you've conflated it with cyber warfare. Acts of cyber terror haven't yet occurred although it's just a matter of time before they do. Thomas Rid limits his argument to acts of pure cyber war which have never occurred either, however he fails to acknowledge acts of cyber warfare which have been occurring with increasing frequency since about 2002 - mostly by Russia against member CIS states. Finally, there are two open source examples of deaths which have come about as the result of operations which included cracking a laptop to gain target data which led up to an assassination. One by Kyrgz Intelligence and one by the Mossad. 

Angryman
Angryman 5pts

@jeffreycarr Good points Jeff. U. (you know who I am)

LCpl X
LCpl X 5pts

 @jeffreycarr

 

This sounds really cool. Do you have the links to the write ups of these ops? 

jeffreycarr
jeffreycarr 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @LCpl X Yes, at my blog post "Clausewitz and Cyber War": http://jeffreycarr.blogspot.com/2011/10/clausewitz-and-cyber-war.html

LCpl X
LCpl X 5pts

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZyU6po_E74

 

I don't know if predictive analysis, now the buzz word for policing these days, is relevant here, but it looks like it belongs to Information Ops.

 

That commercial sucks. Policing doesn't stop at deterrence, that scene shows the early part of interdiction. That copper isn't suppose to just stand there, sipping his fuckin' coffee, he has enough to detain that fucker, run him, ask questions, etc. etc. Although that commercial sucks, predictive analysis is interesting.

LCpl X
LCpl X 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/34/3458.asp

LCpl X
LCpl X 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @jeffreycarr @JackMurphyRGR @jrexilius 

 

Thought this was relevant:

 

"Law enforcement officers are known, on occasion, to encourage citizens to cooperate if they have nothing to hide," ACLU staff attorney Mark P. Fancher wrote. "No less should be expected of law enforcement, and the Michigan State Police should be willing to assuage concerns that these powerful extraction devices are being used illegally by honoring our requests for cooperation and disclosure."

 

A US Department of Justice test of the CelleBrite UFED used by Michigan police found the device could grab all of the photos and video off of an iPhone within one-and-a-half minutes. The device works with 3000 different phone models and can even defeat password protections.

 

(I can see coppers using "consent" to do this, "Do you have any illegal stuff in your cell phone?", "No, officer", "Then, you don't mind me checking it out", "Sure, go ahead, officer..."

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7C-eAcWmVY

jeffreycarr
jeffreycarr 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @jrexilius Yes, it's been around for quite awhile - since the 80's at least. A lot of old hands at NSA are irritated by the new attention that "Cyber" is getting. There's traction at DOD to categorize it under Electronic Warfare which has been around even longer. 

LCpl X
LCpl X 5pts

 @jrexilius 

 

https://www.cia.gov/offices-of-cia/intelligence-analysis/organization-1/ioc-ag.html

 

IOC--with analysis and ops.

jrexilius
jrexilius 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @jeffreycarr Hmm.. i seem to recall various agencies cracking comms, networks and adversaries computer systems long ago and it wasn't called "cyber" anything.. Again, I think conflating the ideas or slapping cyber in front of something is part of the problem.

 

There are new threats and capabilities that have come about as a result of both the democratization and the mass adoption of interconnected electronic systems and I think it muddies the waters by lumping the old in with the new.

 

I'm not so much disagreeing with your general intent but more suggesting that the _actual_ new threats and capabilities deserve analysis and treatment on their own.  A lot of the babble around the defense industry is trying to slap "cyber" in front of existing budgets and purview's in order to secure them and expand them.  Easy win as most people don't know really understand it.

 

I'm suggesting a SOF-style "cut through the bullshit and marketing buzz" approach and address the pertinent aspects in an article.  I'm not really a writer otherwise I'd offer a hand.

jeffreycarr
jeffreycarr 5pts

 @JackMurphyRGR Great. Just let me know how to get the article to you.

JackMurphyRGR
JackMurphyRGR moderator 5pts

 @jeffreycarr Sure, we're always interested.  If cyber-war is going to be a new battlefield than we have to have some coverage of it!

jeffreycarr
jeffreycarr 5pts

 @jrexilius  @JackMurphyRGR Actually, the difference between espionage and cyber espionage is in the TTPs. If you break into a computer network by using a piece of malware or social engineering and steal valuable data (such as in my two examples by Kyrgyz intelligence and Mossad) then you're committing an act of cyber espionage. If you gain the information that you need to compromise your target in some other way which doesn't involve hacking into a network like bugging his hotel room or stealing his un-protected laptop and simply reading the information, it wouldn't be a cyber attack.

jrexilius
jrexilius 5pts

 @jeffreycarr  @JackMurphyRGR  I'd like to see someone do a good laymans article on the difference between intelligence/espionage operations (which have been around for as long as there have been communication and information systems), sabotage operations (mostly within last couple decades), and some of the actual new forms of electronic/information warfare. I've seen people throw around other terms such as cyber-warfare, cyber-terrorism and a few other beltway buzzwords.  Probably good to cover the definition and differences between real and existing things, potential things, and lets just call them what-ifs.

 

For example, unless I'm missing some details it seems  @jeffreycarr  actually made that mistake in his reference to normal intelligence gathering leading up to an assassination in CIS area. That's not really a form of cyber-warfare, just normal intel ops in support of real world op.

 

Almost every article and discussion conflates them and uses example of one form to prop up the threat of another.  It would be a service to the readers to try and break it down.

jeffreycarr
jeffreycarr 5pts

 @JackMurphyRGR Sure. There are lots of possible angles. I'm working on one now for my blog about what a Cyber Special Operation might look like under Executive Order 12333. Let me know if SOFREP would be interested (jeffrey@taiaglobal.com). Full disclosure, I'm an ex-Coastie, not SOF. 

JackMurphyRGR
JackMurphyRGR moderator 5pts

 @jeffreycarr  @LCpl X Hmmm, maybe we can do some posts about specific exploits.

jeffreycarr
jeffreycarr 5pts

 @JackMurphyRGR  @LCpl X I'm with you on the need to tone down the hype, Jack and I appreciate that you posted your article in response to Brandon's. In my work I focus exclusively on how nation states are incorporating "cyber" into their operations and to date it has been primarily for espionage or sabotage. Both may be done outside of war-time or may be part of a multi-modal operation during a kinetic conflict. Personally, I'd like to see more space devoted to how cyber operations are ACTUALLY being conducted by nation states today and less about how they MAY be conducted in the future. I think it would help DOD make smarter purchasing decisions from some contractors who benefit from the hype that they themselves contribute to.

JackMurphyRGR
JackMurphyRGR moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @jeffreycarr  @LCpl X That is a good point Jeff, I think many of us have been treating cyber-terrorism and cyber-war as the same thing.  My point was not to state that there is not threat but that it was being exaggerated for political and monetary reasons.  The examples you mention sound more like espionage than war or terror but they do demonstrate the threat.  However, that threat has been around for hundreds of years since the middle ages when kings would send coded messages by courier. 

wannabearmyteen
wannabearmyteen 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

A teen can learn so much from these conversations!

All of the SOFREP team and readers with their own experiences and expertise in one place informing others and discussing maturely about relevant issues and topics.

This place is a great source of wisdom.

I really appreciate what this community does.

If only i could get other people of my generation to be more open minded to stuff like this.

LCpl X
LCpl X 5pts

 @wannabearmyteen

 

I concur, the readership here is top notch, I have learned tons here.

RobertRota
RobertRota 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

I agree that sometimes the cyber risk is sensationalized. I am an information security professional and have been for far over a decade. The fact is though that mathematically, algorithms can be developed with complexity that effectively secures communication by anyone. Communication, pattern recognition, big data, etc. and mathematically, you as a human can't compete. Not many people know about security because the technology is getting so complex and so fast that no human can possibly keep up. period. Algorithms are being developed weekly that surpass human potential and that is only going to increase. So, the question is what is going on that we don't know about, that we haven't even thought of? 

The digital risk is a lot different in some respects from the physical risk. It doesn't take a lot of cognitive ability to correlate putting a bullet in a guy's head is going to mitigate the risk of you being KIA. But, it is not so easy to correlate the risks associated with disclosure of IP to adversaries. A recent historical example is Michigan. How many people were affected by steel and auto manufacturing IP disclosures? Sure, maybe they don't die immediately but living off of kool aid and marachuan will kill you eventually and give your kids three eyes. Not to mention other risks such as lack of proper health care, sanitation, etc.. 

So, how is our country doing? Is everyone healthy and have all they need, education, security, proper nutrition? No, over half of our country is screwed. It is more difficult to perceptually correlate this with loss of IP but that's a reality just as much as the physical threat. 

LCpl X
LCpl X 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

*** The flip side is that cyber-terrorism is being over hyped like it is nobody’s business. ***

 

A-fuckin' men, Jack. I like how you balance Brandon's points, you two complete each other.

 

Like I said in that other thread, CA because of the modern day hipsters, yuppies, hippies, Web 2.0 generation many of the 20 to 30 somethings are attempting more and more to get off the grid, yes they use the web to spread knowledge, but the knowledge they are spreading is cyber independent.

 

While that's going on in the cities, in the country in CA, farmers are separating themselves from corporate dependent mono crop farming, getting away from agri giants like Monsanto for something more community based, ie farmers' market, contract with local restaurants and establishments, etc. Again getting more and more off the grid also.

 

Country living has always been geared towards off the grid living, but the fact that in cities like SF, LA, SD, etc. you're getting more folks (Web 2.0 folks mind you) raising their own meat, planting their own plants, and most importantly experimenting with various off the grid power solutions, says a lot about minimizing grip and cyber dependence.

 

The grid will crash and people will survive. But more importantly corporations will scare to up their profits and get contracts from gov't paid for by us. Cyber crash and Grid collapse isn't really as apocalyptic as they would want us to believe. Don't be scared, be self-reliant and most importantly make sure you have a real network, not a cyber network, that means your neighborhood, church, family, etc.

RobertRota
RobertRota 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @LCpl X I agree. everyone should have the skills and gear to be able to live self-reliantly. Not everyone will and most probably wont. I heard a statistic the other day that it is forecasted that more and more people will be forced to move to cities. Cities will grow larger. 75% of the US population will be living in cities by 2025 and 70% of the world population will be living in large cities by 2050. 

Old PH2
Old PH2 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @RobertRota  @LCpl X That always hits me, I remember reading figures that during WW2 more than 75% of our population was rural.  Just like the old Ethiopian joke, but substitute Jobs for Food.  (If your starving... Move where the FOOD is!!!)  Sam Kinison was funny, Not PC.

Old PH2
Old PH2 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @LCpl X I was listening to all the commentary about how honorable, responsible, and selfless this Greek guy was.  Sorry but he took the cowards way out in my mind.  Even if I have to eat road kill, I'll keep my shit together.  Lived for two months in my '74 Camaro while in college.  Part of why I joined the Navy.

LCpl X
LCpl X 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Old PH2

 

Yesterday, they played up the Greek news of an old guy shooting himself for lack of pension because of the austerity measures. What total crap, man. I was reminded of this guy's talk about self-reliance and just total badassery, it's never that bad:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpuFeQZCvOI

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @RobertRota  @LCpl X

 And all of those people will be reliant on electricty and water, probably bought and pumped from elsewhere. Our infrastructure sucks, its neglected and worn out. We as a Nation need to take the ripple effect of a cyberattack as serious as any other threat.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @LCpl X

 If LA County lost all electricity there would be mayhem, Alaska is wayyyy more self reliant of the grid then anywhere Ive seen, but you lose power for 5 days in January and your going to blow threw a lot of wood real quick. You realize how much food an individual family of 4 needs to grow to sustain themselves? Farming is a hard job as is ranching, raising and butchering isnt nearly as easy as you make it sound. You people in SOCAL woould be rioting if there was a power crash in say July, right?

LCpl X
LCpl X 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @ArcticWarrior 

 

I agree, LA county and most of the Socal counties, and Norcal would be different. I'm from Norcal.

 

Socal and Norcal have different cultures, welfare checks are one directional from Norcal to Socal.

 

So I agree, but my mentioning of the current self sufficiency drive is spreading hasn't hit critical mass yet, as in Alaska, but everytime food poisoning outbreaks, more people decide to grow their own food or atleast start visiting local farms now catering to farmer direct to table relationship, so the eater of that food can verify that there's no poison. CA because of earthquakes, the average family will have rations set up for weeks (I agree not years).

 

I'm not saying farming is easy, I'm saying you have a spread now of people getting into farming, not a as means of hobby anymore, but legitimate survival because of all the stuff going on in agri-business. This has translated to off the grid solutions as well.

 

There were extended power crashes last summer and this winter with the Santa Ana windstorms and no, no rioting. A bunch of people cried like babies, but no rioting. And I think this was Jack's point, there's more scare than bite in these loss of power or cyber crash scenarios.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Old PH2  @ColonelProp  @wannabearmyteen

 If I had a good pull dipnetting and took a good moose and a decent halibut we could have fish and meat for maybe 6 months. Add to that blueberries,rasberries etc, but that was in an area that could support that kind of living.

Old PH2
Old PH2 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @ColonelProp      @LCpl  @ArcticWarrior  @wannabearmyteen  When My wife and I first married we lived about 45 miles east of Memphis.  There was never an excuse to not have food, Hell all of the ditches had bass, catfish, turtles, plus poke salad, burdock greens, ramp, wild garlic. cattails, I could go on for a long time.  Most folks never consider the things growing on publicly accessable lands for food, I think of it as free food.  There was many a night I'd come home after a day driving a D-6 or a Pan, stop for 10-20 minutes catch two or three bass and pick some ramp, and greens.  Bag it all up and take it home, dinner for the night.  Because we were still struggling even with my 40-50k a year income.  

ColonelProp
ColonelProp 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

@Old PH2 @Old @LCpl @ArcticWarrior @wannabearmyteen Dang man! That is just awesome. Keep on listening. My grandpa and grandma both lived into their late 90's and their tales of the depression were sobering. He hobo'ed out west to meet my grandma, and my other grandma told about the virtue of oxen teams over horse teams ( dad grew up with mule teams on plows, I got open top diesel tractors at least!) and the Feds teaching them how to scrounge up food on the prairies....write all this stuff down for certain!

Tango9
Tango9 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @Old PH2  @LCpl X Copy that Old.  My grandfather owned a cattle ranch here in Colorado.  He taught me so much it's ridiculous.

Old PH2
Old PH2 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @LCpl X You know, growing up we would "harvest" 150 chickens in a day.  I would catch them dad would take two, with a shoelace that had slip knots in both ends he would tie their legs together.  Then over to the stump,then we would flip them over the clothesline under which we placed a laundry tub to catch the blood.  All the blood would get poured on the garden.  Instead of plucking Dad skinned them, way faster, and later I learned that it reduces the fat.  We would gut them and wash them before placing them in our big freezer, not an electric, it ran off of LP gas. 

I owe my Dad so much, these younger guys who come from broken homes just break my heart.  They will never know. 

LCpl X
LCpl X 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Old PH2  

 

Man, that's a cool story! Your girls are very lucky, I hope they suck up all that generational/multi-cultural wisdom and spread all that knowledge around. Fuckin' awesome.

 

Tango9
Tango9 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @Old PH2  @ColonelProp  @ArcticWarrior  @wannabearmyteen That's awesome, man.  You're a lucky guy to have her around.  May she live 20 more. 

Old PH2
Old PH2 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @ColonelProp  @Old  @LCpl  @ArcticWarrior  @wannabearmyteen My 102 yr old Grandmother finally moved in with my 70yr old parents.  We took her car keys away at 97.  I've been blessed to listen to her for nearly 50yrs, survived the Spanish flu, Dust Bowl, Depression, Both World Wars, and out lived two husbands.  She has never worn pants, and still makes bread every week.  Love that old gal, my girls, 5&7, think she is hysterical. 

LCpl X
LCpl X 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @ColonelProp  @Old   @ArcticWarrior  

 

Wow, I didn't know this magazine had such an extensive readership back then. I always thought it was a hippie or OR/CA thing. Thanks for the history, guys.

ColonelProp
ColonelProp 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

@Old PH2 @LCpl X @ArcticWarrior @wannabearmyteen Wow - that did conjure up memories of getting good info out of Mother Earth News with my grandmother. She was a survivor of very hard times in the depression and was very self-reliant. Thanks all.

ColonelProp
ColonelProp 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

@Old PH2 @LCpl X @ArcticWarrior @wannabearmyteen Check out Robert Zubrin's "Energy Victory," good stuff there....get all of us off the OPEC grid!

Old PH2
Old PH2 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @LCpl X  @ArcticWarrior  @wannabearmyteen Actually I've been doing research into producer gas production and Stirling engines.  I really feel the combination of the two could free many of us from the power grid. 

The poop in the bucket keyed me in.

Old PH2
Old PH2 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @LCpl X  @ArcticWarrior  @wannabearmyteen Wow what a flash back!  Dad once subscribed to Mother Earth News, we used a Wind mill to pump for our stock pond.  You got to know, if dad had not been injured his senior year in HS he would have filled a seat at Annapolis, would have been class of '65.  So no Hippie, just looking for ways to do the most with the smallest investment.  Hell we raised free range chickens before anyone called them that.

 

Thanks for the trip down memory lane. 

LCpl X
LCpl X 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @ArcticWarrior

 

LOL! Now that's what I'm talking about, spread that wisdom that @wannabearmyteen is talking about into other articles.

 

I'm a big fan of the survivalist movement, but I also know there's a bunch of psychos that frequent these venues, just like martial arts and firearms venues, but Dirt Time up in Pasadena, CA doing lessons in the Los Angeles forest and Mojave deserts, is a great community for Socal residents to take advantage of.

 

 @Old PH2 

 

So true, man. I was reminded by this article when you mentioned composting: http://www.realitysandwich.com/how_save_world_pooping_bucket , the local gov'ts have so much to gain by promoting these urban homesteads, yet they are more concerned about their false health and safety codes.

 

I'm a big fan of the hippie movement, today and yesterday's, not so much because of their politics, but their independence from gov't ethos, now it's become fashionable again, and publications like this one from the 60s and 70s and getting popular:

http://www.wholeearth.com

 

Like this, scroll down to page 26, if you're into urban homesteading you'd like this:

http://wholeearth.com/issue-electronic-edition.php?iss=2020 (that's some good shit right there, man, how could we as a society have lost this wisdom?)

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @LCpl X

 See Im not only posting on the women in the Teams thing  ; )

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @LCpl X

 No your are correct in that, but as we progress we become more reliant on tech and we lose some of the other stuff. Its good your up on that, keep playing with it, those indigenous skills are still relevant.

Old PH2
Old PH2 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @LCpl X  @ArcticWarrior  Back here in the Midwest most Cities still have zoning that prohibits farm use within city limits, behind the times if you ask me.  Funny thing is that locally to me the county seat only passed such regs in the last 10years.  Growing up you could see chickens, goats, even horses in peoples city lots, very surreal.   I was threatened with a fine because I had a compost pile, described in the ticket as a garbage heap.  Took pictures of the wooden framed box to the city council, along with pictures of my garden.  Fortunately the council agreed that the zoning enforcement was out of bounds.

 

It's like we constantly make things harder on ourselves.

LCpl X
LCpl X 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @ArcticWarrior 

 

Sorry, didn't really mean to downplay this, by upplaying off the grid solutions. Just that off grid solutions will play hand in hand with any solutions.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @LCpl X

 It is good, your right. But we shouldnt downplay a crippling of our infrastructure, in the form of a cyberattack. Water...we all need it.

LCpl X
LCpl X 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @ArcticWarrior 

 

I totally agree with you on this, man. Again the Norcal/Socal difference. I'm a big fan of "Chinatown" Jack Nicolson, and because of that got into the whole Mulholland/Los Angeles history. The population is water dependent, not the land, natives thrived here before.

 

And I agree, corporations and big cities have to be on the ball on this, because Socal especially is a very dependent region. With that said, you also have to understand that people have thrived in this region thru out history, now it's not Utah, Arizona, Colorado. But at the same time, Socal isn't all desert.

 

I'm just saying, there's now a movement by web 2.0 types to get off the grid. This is a good think, and should be pushed by local gov'ts the way they push anti-smoking. Because when the grid crashes, that DHS 3 week scenario will be alleviated if you have more self sufficient people, and off the grid.

 

It's like the Socal traffic dilemma, the solution isn't to build more freeways.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @LCpl X

 Most of SOCALs water comes from the Colorado river, in other states mind you. Most of that water is used for irrigating crops which are grown in a desert. No power for 3 weeks, no pump stations, no water, no water crops die so do cattle and people. We got a Security Brief from DHS that outlined 3 weeks as the timeframe before major metro areas would start to lose control. Now keep in mind power station like Palo Verde in AZ supply SOCAL with a lot of power, generating stations crash, guess what those units like most stations use "one of" items bulit specifically for that location, no off the shelf. So SOCAL is relaint heavily on water and electricity from elsewhere to get food and water. SOCAL has awful and old infrastructure with some of the worst Electric and power companies in the country. You people would have no clean water, no animals to hunt, no skills to farm, no snivel commodities etc. Now the people of Utah, AZ, and Colorado would fair much better in some of those areas, so the major cities in 3 weeks would spiral down quickly, so they need to be on the ball about Cyberwar. In a strategic attack what do you go for first, command and control right, which now are all in integrated systems.

Im not a survivalist, Im just know from living way off the grid, its hard work.

Also I was a kid in school when the first WTC happened, they told us isolated incident wont happen again and downplayed the odds of it happening. So they never moved the Command and Control to Brooklyn from Manhatten and a lot of good Firemen and Police died because of that the second time around, and I didnt forget that lesson.

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