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Home » AFSOC » The Art of Women at War

The Art of Women at War

by Brandon Webb · May 24, 2012 · Posted In: AFSOC, Coalition SOF, MARSOC, NSWC, SOF History, Special Operations, USASOC
IDF-women-sofrep-combat
We’ve done several pieces on women in Special Ops and it’s obviously still a hot bed for debate.  I like that the SOFREP community can hold a healthy debate and look at things objectively (for the most part).

Related Posts
  • The Challenges of Women in Combat Roles
  • The Inconvenient Truth About Women and Combat (Part 1)
  • Women’s Rights Activist Demands ‘Camouflage Ceiling’ Brought Down

In the past we’ve seen military capabilities come and go and get re-invented quite a few times (e.g. aerial combat and sniping to name two). The same can be said using women in combat throughout history.

I disagree with lowering standards or making exceptions for any race or sex in the Special Operations. In the beginning, let everyone in and keep the standards the same and only over time develop modified physical standards for females since their anatomy is clearly different. It’s the mental game that matters anyway.  This will prevent male counterparts from crying Bull Shit and also gives females a sense of pride for having made it with the same set of standards.  Cram them through and you do nobody any favors except maybe top ranking officials and officers that are more concerned with a too often seen non-exemplary punching of their tickets. And it creates all sorts of hidden and expensive consequences, low morale being a big one for both men and women.

I agree that having women integrated into male combat units will have its problems and ass grabbing is just the beginning. We should look to other Defense forces like the Israelis for positive examples of integration.

It’s important for the purposes of this debate (on women in combat units) to point out that women have had their rightful place as warriors throughout the history of warfare.

Here is snap shot of five women I list as an example, some famous and some not so famous.

Women in Combat

1. Joan of Arc

joan-of-arc-sofrep-women-in-combat

A peasant girl born in what is now eastern France, who claimed divine guidance, she led the French army to several important victories during the Hundred Years War, which paved the way for the coronation of Charles VII.  She was captured by the Burgundians, transferred to the English in exchange for money, put on trial by the pro-English Bishop of Beauvais for charges of “insubordination and heterodoxy,”and burned at the stake as a heretic when she was only 19.

2. Nandi Zulu Warrior Princess

NANDI-SOFREP-Woman-combat

A Zulu princess and the mother of famed African Warrior Shaka-Zulu was a warrior princess who fought slave-traders in 19th century Africa and raised her son to be a leader and a warrior. In fact, when Shaka became King, he established an all-female regiment in her memory.

3. Lyudmila Pavlichenko an Accomplished Sniper in Russia’s Red Army

female-sniper-sofrep

Pavlichenko was among the first round of volunteers at the recruiting office, where she requested to join the infantry and subsequently she was assigned to the Red Army’s 25th Rifle Division.  Pavlichenko had the option to become a nurse but refused; “I joined the army when woman were not yet accepted”.There she became one of 2,000 female snipers in the Red Army, of whom about 500 ultimately survived the war. As a sniper, she made her first two kills near Belyayevka, using a Tokarev SVT-40 semi-automatic rifle with 3.5 telescopic sight.

4. Lt. Heather “Lucky” Penney

From the Washington Post

Late in the morning of the Tuesday that changed everything, Lt. Heather “Lucky” Penney was on a runway at Andrews Air Force Base and ready to fly. She had her hand on the throttle of an F-16 and she had her orders: Bring down United Airlines Flight 93. The day’s fourth hijacked airliner seemed to be hurtling toward Washington. Penney, one of the first two combat pilots in the air that morning, was told to stop it.

The one thing she didn’t have as she roared into the crystalline sky was live ammunition. Or missiles. Or anything at all to throw at a hostile aircraft.

Except her own plane. So that was the plan.

Because the surprise attacks were unfolding, in that innocent age, faster than they could arm war planes, Penney and her commanding officer went up to fly their jets straight into a Boeing 757.

“We wouldn’t be shooting it down. We’d be ramming the aircraft,” Penney recalls of her charge that day. “I would essentially be a kamikaze pilot.”

5. Corporal Niva Hazon of the IDF

IDF-women-sofrep-combat

When corporal Niva Hazon climbs on the turret of the MERKAVA 4 tank she cannot hide her excitement. “I have not been on a tank for a month now,” she disclosed, “most of the communication instruction is carried out in the classroom. We have special simulators on which we can demonstrate the tank’s communication system. Only after extensive practice in the classroom we actually go in the tank”. After she easily leaps into the tank, Niva gives us a comprehensive explanation about the communications equipment. “We were taught every possible detail about this equipment. This way we earn the respect of the trainees, and motivates them to learn. The instructor is an important part of producing a combatant”

Stare Down

I would suspect that these ladies would most not approve of lowering standards for women in the U.S. Army Rangers and I would love to see a few of them stare down the bureaucrats and ticket punchers that are forcing a square peg through a round hole and hear them ask “WTF over?”

 

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About The Author

Brandon Webb

Brandon Webb is a former U.S. Navy SEAL with combat deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan, and elsewhere in the Middle East. His last tour in the SEAL Teams was as the Course Manager for the US Navy SEAL Sniper program, arguably one of the most difficult sniper courses in the world. He was formerly a contributing editor for Military.com, and currently the Editor-in-Chief of SOFREP.com. Brandon is regularly featured in the media as a subject matter expert on military affairs. An avid writer, his last two books (The Red Circle, & Benghazi: The Definitive Report) both hit the New York Times best seller list, and his writing has been featured in print, and digital media worldwide. You can follow him on Twitter @BrandontWebb

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sr556
sr556 5pts

How bout Lieutenant Colonel Kim Cambell: http://www.badassoftheweek.com/kimcampbell.html

Or Colonel Martha McSally: PS: on live TV she warned Senator Rick Santorum she was going to "kick him in his jimmy" if he didn't stop opposing women in combat roles. TFF...BTW: While at the Academy, she decided she wanted to complete the grueling Hawaii Ironman Triathlon (2.4 mile swim, 112 mile bike, 26.2 mile run). In 1993, after finishing several marathons, winning the national triathlon championship, competing in multiple ½ Ironmans and 1 full Ironman, she won the women’s military division and placed 12th in her age group in the world at the famous Hawaii race. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martha_McSally and http://marthamcsally.com





AME1 MJH
AME1 MJH 5pts

Brandon what ever happened to the lady who was working with the teams. Did she ever go through BUDS training or was it just her Army training that got her in. 

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts

 @Eric_Strattoniii    Look who the author is.....http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/21/opinion/21iht-edbroadwell.html

 

EmilioLizardo
EmilioLizardo 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

Only if a society is desperate or decedent do you need women in combat.

 

A society's future is limited by the number and quality of it's females.  What is then it the purpose of trying to get them killed?

JessicaHugh1
JessicaHugh1 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

You forgot Elizabeth 1.  Although she may have never rode into battle, she was a brilliant strategist with regards to defensive warfare.. There's something to be said about women's ability for deception, leveraging assets, and understanding the limits (we don't have such an issue with pride).. 

HugeFan
HugeFan 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @JessicaHugh1 "(we don't have such an issue with pride)" Yeah, I disagree strongly there. However, if it was tongue-in-cheek then bloody hilarious! :-)

Eric_Strattoniii
Eric_Strattoniii 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

Yet another example of the Army and apparently the world ignoring facts and recent studies by both the Brits and the US on women in combat, hey but what do these people care, they won't be in the field with them, certainly none of the advocates will be at least-

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/jul/30/army-may-train-women-for-rigor-of-front-lines/?page=all

This comment has been deleted

Robertkyle
Robertkyle 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Matt2 Man I wish that were the case.  Admiral McRaven has been publicly commenting and support it.

 

 http://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/mcraven-praises-fantastic-obama-discusses-afghanistan-and-non-kinetic-sof-operations/

 

Check out the bottom

Recon6
Recon6 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @Recon6   Over at  "You Served" there is an interview with Marine Cpt. Katie Petronio referencing this exact subject!  Her response, having served in S-Stan and Iraq is an unequivocal NO !  She is an Engineer, however, she states that she could never do what the Infantry does, her body has broken down under the stress she experienced, which is in No Way comparable.   Hope this helps a muddled picture.     R6

Tango9
Tango9 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

This post still lives?  Amazing.  Well, press on!

Old PH2
Old PH2 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

I just caught this article over at Christian Science Monitor:

http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/editors-blog/2012/0712/Women-warriors-How-close-to-combat

 

I always like their coverage of international news.

Eric_Strattoniii
Eric_Strattoniii 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @Old PH2 Dude, thanks for the link but I am not sure I am that big of a fan of CSM. They pretty much take the conventional wisdom approach on this topic and in that article try and even use a journalist who reported on the front lines as thought that is a comparable comparison to a grunt or other person doing a combat mission. Then they trot out that old faithful of Congresswoman Duckworth, who was seriously injured in combat but still getting hit by a mine/IED/etc....does not equate to qualify you as being a grunt. Then having to read that all they (women) want is an "equal" shot and that I know to be basic BS since somehow this has not been a rally cry previously with standards being lowered and quotas instituted for Officer billets that are hard quotas and "goals" being instituted for enlisted. It is all "window dressing" and BS, don't buy it and again, when I see women and the men who push for this idea screaming with the same loud voices to raise the already silly low standards we have, to make an actual combat test for infantry/SOF jobs, to get rid of quotas then I'll buy that they actually just want a chance, until then it is all bullshit. 

Old PH2
Old PH2 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @Eric_Strattoniii I'm real conflicted on the whole thing.  Never saw women in the Fleet, I always deployed on Combatant Ships so no WAVEs.  The places I did encounter women I observed them regularly "working" fellows to get out of strenuous activity.  I know there is a place for women in our armed services.  And I realize the value of having women at hand to enable access to female Islamists.  

 

What I can't condone is why we even think about playing by their rules?  WHO GIVES A RAT"S ASS if ISLAM demands a separation between men and women?  ARE WE GOVERNED BY ISLAM?  Over the decades DoD has developed entire manuals devoted to teaching MP's and front line troops how to deal with EPW and non-combatant detainees.  Why should we care what other's think of us?  DO the job, destroy the threat to the US then make nice with who's left over.  That's when the women can have a huge impact, and they will be more than welcomed to help.    

HugeFan
HugeFan 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Recon6  @Matt2  @Eric_Strattoniii Well said, boss. Here, here!

Recon6
Recon6 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Matt2  @Eric_Strattoniii   Matt, that is Exactly why I liked it better when certain elements remained 'in the background'.  "The Quiet Professionals" were quiet for a reason!  Once Pols, OGA's, etc. become involved things deteriorate rapidly and it becomes a clusterfuck and standards are reduced or they are called discriminatory.  The ticket punchers don't care about having the world's Greatest SOF, they Only care about the advancement of their subjective careers.  SOF performs because there is a lack of micro management and everyone is able to accomplish the mission.    6 

Recon6
Recon6 5pts

 @Eric_Strattoniii  @HugeFan  @Old PH2  Eric, well said and definitely Rec'd !    R6

HugeFan
HugeFan 5pts

 @Eric_Strattoniii  @Recon6  @Old PH2 Agreed: "Maybe some miracle will happen someday" is an important concept to keep in mind. I've said it before, bitter enemies have become allies and allies have become bitter enemies throughout history. The idea that I see us working through is how to defeat our enemy by planting the seeds necessary to "kill" off  the primitive mentality so prevalent currently. That said, the "long run" with which I refer to could 100 to 1,000 years into the future. Like I said I see your point. 

Eric_Strattoniii
Eric_Strattoniii 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @Recon6  @HugeFan  @Old PH2 

That is a good point but does not help with the "hearts and minds" side of COIN warfare. Things are not always black and white and we have often gone in the past with the "devil" who was on our side versus the "devil" who was not. It's not the ideal I know, but geo-politics rarely are, it's all about National Interests.

The CSTs and FETs value in being culturally sensitive is murky at best, they will never get any real intel despite what some folks think, it is just not the way the culture works there. Maybe some miracle will happen someday but for the most part a network is going to get real intel, the FETs and CSTs mainly just help out with the hearts and minds side by being able to give medical and other aid to females in various villages but that is it and the do not need to be co-located with SOF or doing constant GP patrols, they just need to come out after an area is seucred (relatively) and do what they can to help the females in the area.

FETs and CSTs both are what happens when the "Good Idea Fairy" has to much time on her hands and allows a new metric that can be used by 05's and above to be implemented into the Area of Operations. That they also make great headlines is an added bonus to the O's and Pols involved.

Recon6
Recon6 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @HugeFan  @Old PH2  @Eric_Strattoniii   HF, Nailed It !!

HugeFan
HugeFan 5pts

 @Old PH2  @Eric_Strattoniii Middle paragraph came out muddled to me. I was saying that since we as a society and culture do not show preference to any one religion then it sends the wrong message to be so embracing of the barbaric principles espoused by our enemy. No way to be sensitive to a culture that allows honor killings, stonings and a myriad of other cultural "norms" that are felonies in the U.S. with most carrying a life sentence.

HugeFan
HugeFan 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Old PH2  @Eric_Strattoniii Can I piggyback that one? That second paragraph really strikes the chord for me. While in the beginning I understood the need for cultural sensitivity and I will say that we do have to project a positive image because I believe that that is what separates us from our enemies, I am at my absolute limit with respecting the terrorists' Islamic culture. In fact, PH put it right in the ten ring with this quote:

 

"ARE WE GOVERNED BY ISLAM?"

 

Hell no we're not. Last I checked we a technically a secular society free of demagoguery and ecclesiastic influence over our government. Now that doesn't mean that for the most part we don't embrace Judeo-Christian principles because we do but we are not forced to participate in organized religion if do not want to. I'm concerned that forcing our soldiers to kowtow to Islamic principles will just engender further resentment and send the wrong message (as Eric S. and PH mentioned) to the world community.

 

The message needs to be big, bold letters that say: "You hit us, we will knock you down. After you quit we can talk about it". Having to jump through these hoops suck. Of course, it does help with intel gathering because due to this perverse culture Muslim women just simply won't talk to men. Point a gun at them and threaten them but they'll probably choose death rather than eternal damnation. I see both sides to this one but I want to be on the side that says "F U" to these wingnuts.

 

 

HugeFan
HugeFan 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @Eric_Strattoniii  @Old PH2 Honestly, for the most part I do disagree but you bring logic to the argument that is hard to deny. I'll leave it right there.

BladeWasFearless
BladeWasFearless 5pts

 @HugeFan  @Matt2    Adam's case is perhaps the most exceptional case I know of. That is, he is The Great Exception.  Because he broke the mold, I don't think much can be generalized from his life, especially with regards to policy about unseen potential that might apply to women. 

HugeFan
HugeFan 5pts

 @Robertkyle  @Old PH2  @Matt2 Like I said, I got where you're going with it and liked the critical thinking that you're bringing brother.

Robertkyle
Robertkyle 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @HugeFan  @Old PH2  @Matt2 Yea I just thought since he views it as a business and stuff he probably looks for efficiency.

 

The motorcycle thread is freaking awesome.  

HugeFan
HugeFan 5pts

 @Robertkyle  @Old PH2  @Matt2 Hey, bro I see where you're going but I've already taken my dog out of this fight. I've said my piece and know where pretty much we all stand on this one. I don't know much about Mr. Prince and don't know what to think of his enterprise as I am very undecided on PMC's. I have my issues with the concept but again refrain from opining. Let me clarify, I have respect for what Erik has done in uniform but haven't been able to cut through the liberal and conservative BS surrounding his civilian ventures. To some he is a god and to others the devil. Like I said, I am undecided. With that said...

 

I'm enjoying this thread here: http://sofrep.com/9047/marsoc-motorcycle-gangs-in-afghanistan/#lf_comment=32122722

 

Less intense and a lot of cool ideas and comments flying around there. You should check it out.

Robertkyle
Robertkyle 5pts

 @Old PH2  @Matt2  @HugeFan And by Eric Prince I mean Erik Prince or any of those PMC's.  

Robertkyle
Robertkyle 5pts

 @Old PH2  @Matt2  @HugeFan An interesting thought I had... why don't we ask Eric Prince if he plans on hiring women as shooters any time soon.  I know its not the same but sort of supports how we feel.

Old PH2
Old PH2 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Robertkyle  @Matt2  @HugeFan +500 for the Red Dawn quote!  Sometimes I think we're all just Flogging Molly on this thread, the POLs and JSOC will do what they want and our poor kids will just have to deal with it. 

 

I still think we're Fuckin up as long as we are tying our own hands.

Robertkyle
Robertkyle 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Eric_Strattoniii  @Matt2  @HugeFan Dude my logic and reason were pretty much just to get a rise out of you.  Once you started messaging back I immaturely was trying to get a good laugh out of you.  I didn't realize you guys had been locked in armed conflict over this issue as long as you guys have.  Don't take to much of what I say seriously unless I put "but seriously" some where in the lines.  

 

As far as saying i'm in denial or not informed, again I'm sorry for not actively engaging you guys with 100% seriousness.  I do believe its a serious issue but I don't think people should be getting as upset with each other as they are on here.  Congress is going to do what congress wants regardless of what I think or you think for that matter.   

 

So my philosophy is simply a soldier/operator/sailor/marine/airman/coastie/dude goes where he's told to go and fights who he's told to fight.  I admire your will to fight, but I'm more of a lets wait and see type guy.  I don't think women are going to fair well in ranger school.  First time they have to strip down together with a bunch of guys after a nice day of river crossings or even better the first time they get to hang out butt naked with a bunch of dudes at SERE at Mackall we'll see how the brass enjoys that.  I just can't see how its not going to affect the leadership capabilities of the women if they are asked to command a bunch of dudes especially in the environment us Infantry/operator types are raised in.  Its sad that the brass is so fearful of not getting promoted or lossing their post that they'll march along to the beat of congress's drum.  

 

Sorry you guys have been fighting this for so long and sorry again for messing around with you at first.  Until @Matt2 and @HugeFan let me know how long this has been going on I just thought it was funny how serious you were.  Maybe 'serious' isn't a good one, more like complete and utter lack of patience for bullshit would be a better way of describing it.  One thing though, I know this is a blog and all, but maybe try not to go on the offensive so much with guys. Remember we are all fighting the same fight here regardless of our opinions.  Obviously we all a bit of an ego.  

 

Either way we look at this issue, we are essentially helpless to the will of the paid decision makers.  Viva' la revolution!  wolverines! 

Recon6
Recon6 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Matt2   Me too!  

HugeFan
HugeFan 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Matt2  @Recon6 So if I 'like' that comment, it would be pretty self-serving right?

HugeFan
HugeFan 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Matt2  @Robertkyle  LOL: "the bad guys" arguing common sense and logic". Trying to get a rise? :-) I know it was tongue-in-cheek but if anyone here thought you guys were being "bad guys" they can get bent. You guys come off rough but the points made are for the most part valid and I know that when it comes to the vets, garnered from experience. Agree with you also about not trying to rehash it. That was a tough couple of  weeks... sheesh!

HugeFan
HugeFan 5pts

 @Eric_Strattoniii  @Robertkyle  @Matt2 Again, excellent points. I'll be pondering those today for sure.

Eric_Strattoniii
Eric_Strattoniii 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Robertkyle  @Matt2  @HugeFan Oye, Robertkyle, dude, I know you are not oblivious. Saying you wanted them to meet the same standards is easy, a lot of people say that all the time but if they have had time in the military they know full well that we have NEVER done that but yet they continue to repeat that mantra like monks in a monastary. Acting like what you were saying was using "reason and logic" is a reach, especially in the way you framed your posts. I am well aware of what you were saying once you got challenged on it your not so keen, it's cool. No worries. That leads me to my next statement about your next post "I can FATHOM them ever being able to be put in leadership positions especially in the infantry ranks". Dude, umm....have you been keeping up on the news or read any of the links provided on any of the various articles on this topic? That is why they are going to use Ranger school as a test bed to see if they can expand their combat roles. It is the same reason the USMC is letting them go to the Basic Infantry Officer Course. This is all in the open, this is what both branches have said they want to use the schools for-to test if they can expand the combat roles for women.

 

Brother, if you are in the military still you would know that this is a currently a huge issue. The whole reason behind the recent push is due the entire study done at the behest of Congress to increese diversity in the military and expand promotion opportunities, nothing else. Equal standards are never mentioned. Read the report, I have linked to it several times on this blog, not hard to find. Just look up diversity report presented to Congress on diversity in the military, add "women" into your google search.

 

If you do not think that this whole thing is going to lead them to be in mixed gender units, in infantry and leading infantry or SOF down the road you are either not keeping informed on the topic or you are in denial.

HugeFan
HugeFan 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Matt2 Without prior service it's hard to disagree in a way that doesn't come off sounding like a sniveling booger-eater, so yeah I over-do it intentionally so that the respect is the first thing you get... then I'll proceed to tell you exactly how fucked you are! LOL, I do it to my ship-running crews as well so no one ever gets left out. SIDEBAR: I do like the t-shirt idea, good inside joke and what not...

HugeFan
HugeFan 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @Matt2 Absolutely, SEAN always brings the A-game. My bad for forgetting one of my favorite "hive-kickers"!

Recon6
Recon6 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @HugeFan  @Matt2   HF, nope, I am aware Matt Only JDAMS those deserving, lol.  I was just trying to add another glimpse into the subject.  Good stuff by all.    6

HugeFan
HugeFan 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @Recon6  @Matt2 R6: Those are very kind words, thank you sir. I don't think Matt2 was trying to frag me or anything. The way I see it is he was doing me a solid by showing some respect for what I had to say and so I take it a huge compliment. Can't agree on everything right guys? Although I'll be quick to point out that I do agree 99.9% of the time, in fact it's the information that you vets provide that helps me shape my view on the topics that we discuss here. Again thanks for including me here despite being the "outsider".

Recon6
Recon6 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @Matt2  @HugeFan   Matt, HF was hammered mercilessly several months ago!  He is always considerate and brings much to any topic even without experience in the military.  He appears to be well read and continues to post relevant material, good guy too.    R6

Robertkyle
Robertkyle 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @Matt2  @HugeFan Also... even if women did go through Ranger school....what would they do then?  They would be a novelty, probably a horse and pony show.  I can't FATHOM them ever being able to be put in leadership positions especially in the infantry ranks.  My entire family all the way back to my great grandfather has worn a blue cord on their shoulder and I simply can't imagine women wearing one being an idea that was ever fully accepted.  Like it or not the Infantry is about as set in its ways as anything in the Army ladies, and thats not going to change. 

 

Robertkyle
Robertkyle 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Matt2  @HugeFan Haha man to be honest I don't even know what side of this conversation you were on.   I think this thread has turned into one of SOFREP's most highly disputed.  I was more or less just trying to make some humor out of it all, nothing worse than a bunch of tense/awkward guys arguing over women on and online message board.

 

What Eric never caught on to, maybe due to the fact I eluded it to it the whole time, was that I was pretty much saying Women would of have to meet every standard a male does before they could join in on the festivities.  Since we know that is impossible I thought he would of understood that I'm not for them being able to go to Ranger school.  Notice I said Ranger school... because I originally just spoke about Ranger school...   Some where along the way this turned into an all out assault on personal opinions (in this case it was an assault on an opinion I didn't even have)  

 

So once he started getting all carried away I thought I would pull his chain a little because like I said, theres nothing worse then a bunch of high-testosterone trigger pullers fighting over a bunch of girls online.

 

That was probably more than what you wanted to read this morning, sorry dude.  I'm just astonished at the polarity of this post.   

Tango9
Tango9 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @Matt2  @HugeFan when I don't see a wall of LCpl icons on the "listening" bar I'll leave this place once and for good.  Until then:  /sigh

Robertkyle
Robertkyle 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @HugeFan  @Matt2 haha.  Just made my night man.  Luckily i've got a nice soft soled pair of merrell's we can both use.

HugeFan
HugeFan 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Robertkyle  @Matt2 Eh... for the most part I'm a moron bro. Just ask my better half. I know better than to have an opinion, I told dm8471 that "just because we have a RIGHT to free speech that it doesn't mean that we should use it". I should follow my own advice. Got a shoe size 12? Cuz I need help filling this fat mouth...

Robertkyle
Robertkyle 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @HugeFan  @Matt2 Prepare to defend your statements brother.  I tried speaking with reason and logic...I didn't fair very well.

HugeFan
HugeFan 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @Matt2 Look bro, you've put me in a spot. I know that we differ in opinion on women serving in Special Operations roles. I disagree with the premise that women cannot serve in those roles. I feel that if a woman were to pass assessment training and then proceed to advanced training that they, in fact have earned the right to be there. I thought that that was what made Special Ops "special". The points argued by Eric S. and seancul55 are not without there merit (in Eric's case, experience). I am not worthy of arguing my side as I have never served but feel that if a PERSON has earned their silver wings, Trident, etc. then they deserve to at least have the chance to fail at the platoon level during training. I look at Adam, before reading that book would any have us ever admitted that an addict could have passed the most severe training in the world. Maybe I have missed the point. For that I apologize but I trust my gut on this one. All due respect to those who disagree.

 

As for Eric's most recent post, he presented facts. Politics plays far too big a role in our military's selection process. I say let the operators actually performing these missions decide who is fit and who is unfit. I think that BW being for the integration of women speaks volumes.

This comment has been deleted

BladeWasFearless
BladeWasFearless 5pts

 @seancul55  @ArcticWarrior  @Matt2  @Eric_Strattoniii 

For me to suggest that highly specialized women, such as olympic shooters, or someone as good, and who are in little respect inferior to men in that specific skill, be considered, is hardly "the flood gates opening." I said I was against large scale involvement of women. The point is that there might be a few places where pure merit would still be the standard and it could be done without compromise. Special operations always puts such an emphasis on being a team and forming that trustworthy bond with your brother over time, so that there is absolute trust--that I think this might be the real obstacle to women being deployed, even where they are as good as men. Can that kind of bond be forged? Will the sexual stuff get in the way.? I think the military talks about it to appear open and appease the yappy lemon sucking women who want equality.  But it happening in special ops is a long way off I suspect.

seancul55
seancul55 5pts

 @BladeWasFearless  @ArcticWarrior  @Matt2  @Eric_Strattoniii Oh dear... I think I hear the flood gates opening...

BladeWasFearless
BladeWasFearless 5pts

 @ArcticWarrior  @Matt2  @Eric_Strattoniii   It would be silly at this time for men and women to compete head to head in most sports. However, other countries have used their olympic shooters in times of war, and I suspect our elite women shooters would produce good results in the field.  The shooting events are also something in the olympics that might give closer gender results than other sports.  I'm against women in combat on a large scale. In certain specialized functions, such as being a sniper, where a women wouldn't lower the standards of excellence, I wouldn't have a problem with it. 

  Kim Rhode won Gold three olympics in a row in skeet shooting. I suspect she would be a worthy soldier in field, and perhaps even more worthy in training others..  Yes, skeet is not sniper... but... 

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @HugeFan

 Ive heard or been on the recieving end of most of the Army ones, so I like a lot of the Navy/MC ones I hadnt heard. BW had that "Shit SEALs Say" article and I still laugh at some of them.

HugeFan
HugeFan 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @ArcticWarrior Nice! I maybe civie but remember that as a Navy contractor and grandson to a Commander and Senior Chief, I've heard a lot of cool stuff. However, having become a member here, I see that an excellent side benefit has been picking up additional turns of phrase. Lately my favorite has been Tango9's "lunchbox" quote, that one cracks me up every time I use it.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @HugeFan

 Us older guys usually had a Sr NCO who made an impression on us when we were younglings by throwing various phrases at us in regards to clusterfucks he was trying to uncluster. Some just get burned in your collective memory and then one day your the old guy saying the same thing to the same kinds of guys.

As for helping with policing the brass, fuck that get on the Duece and get some!

Robertkyle
Robertkyle 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @Matt2  @ArcticWarrior No kidding.  

 

HugeFan
HugeFan 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @Matt2 You "Old Salts" say the coolest shit. I volunteer to clean up the "brass" boss.

HugeFan
HugeFan 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Matt2  @ArcticWarrior Only as long as I can get a good deal...

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @Matt2

 Brother I dont know if we'll survive this debate because the year isnt over, but let us go down with a pile of brass at our feet

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @Matt2  @Eric_Strattoniii

 A random thought. The Olympics, the Civilized worlds showcase for sportsmanship, athletisism and fair play is coming up. Athletes trained to near perfection, much like many SOCOM types, mentally hardened by years of competition. And yet in all fairness the men do not compete with women head to head, and most would cry foul if the men sprinted against women, played b-ball against the women, power lifted against the women...get my drift....the women would get zero medals and that wouldnt be very sporting or fair so they have their own categories, seperate from men. And many who cringe at that thought, men head to head vs women, are the same who push for an "equal" shot.

Robertkyle
Robertkyle 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @Eric_Strattoniii  @Old PH2 Eric if I knew you in person I would just give you hug.  

 

HugeFan
HugeFan 5pts

 @Old PH2 I don't read much CSM but think that I'll make sure to add them to cross-check from here on. Thanks PH.

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