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Home » Special Operations » Spec Ops Shooting Radicals In The Face

Spec Ops Shooting Radicals In The Face

by Brandon Webb · July 2, 2012 · Posted In: Special Operations
Spec Ops Shooting Radicals In The Face
I believe in being respectful of others beliefs and culture is the right thing to do. However, there are situations where you are just not going to please everyone, try this strategy and you are doomed. There are just too many extremists of all shapes, colors and sizes to please them all. Sometimes is just comes down to using a little common sense.

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The situation that developed recently with the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) getting upset about Navy SEALs shooting at Middle Eastern dressed targets is just ridiculous.

“Using a Muslim woman wearing a religious head scarf with [verses from the] Quran behind her as a target for our nation’s military personnel is offensive and sends a negative and counterproductive message to trainees and to the Muslim-majority nations to which they may be deployed,” wrote CAIR National Executive Director Nihad Awad in a letter to Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta.

woman-shooting-woman-sofrep

The targets in question are used by the SEALs and Special Operations community, and reality based training is a must. I say again, we have to train for reality based scenarios and there have been plenty of women (insert religion of choice) shooting at US Warfighters.  I’ve also seen and personally used targets that have children holding guns and explosives to simulate real scenarios that are encountered globally and on a daily basis. It’s unfortunate, just read “On Killing” to realize why we must use real pictures of human beings to shoot at.

In my career we ran into a similar situation briefly with shooting non caucasian targets in the kill house.  We ended not pulling them out of the inventory because we had leadership who applied common sense. After all, in Spec Ops we don’t discriminate who we shoot in the face for practice and it should stay this way.

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About The Author

Brandon Webb

Brandon Webb is a former U.S. Navy SEAL with combat deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan, and elsewhere in the Middle East. His last tour in the SEAL Teams was as the Course Manager for the US Navy SEAL Sniper program, arguably one of the most difficult sniper courses in the world. He was formerly a contributing editor for Military.com, and currently the Editor-in-Chief of SOFREP.com. Brandon is regularly featured in the media as a subject matter expert on military affairs. An avid writer, his last two books (The Red Circle, & Benghazi: The Definitive Report) both hit the New York Times best seller list, and his writing has been featured in print, and digital media worldwide. You can follow him on Twitter @BrandontWebb

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Frosty
Frosty 5pts

How about everytime they an armed Muslim they put their guns down and shake their hands. Let them shoot at our soldiers andd curse how religion and way of life. Let them think up ways to murder as many civilians(Arab and American) as possible all the while we think of ways to make them more comfortable.

NelsonJr
NelsonJr 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

Apparently, someone's hurt feelings are being soothed....this sucks..

 

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/navy-pulls-targets-muslim-women-seal-training-range-article-1.1107154

Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

 @NelsonJr  I just want to go punch a Hippie.  I can not type the vile profanity that just came from my mouth upon reading this article.  The Pictures of the Facility are awsome, what a great training tool.  But there is no place in training for "TOOLS."  I hope the ACLU prosecutes the command for the next death of a SEAL , because he was denied the Civil right to be trained how to defend himself against emotionally shocking adversaries.  Yeah, I can dream.   EAT SHIT AND DIE YOU MOTHER FUCKERS. 

 

Those men deserve every tool that will give them an advantage on the battle field.  Oh, and a BIG THANX to the poorly prepared USN PAO office that did not sanitize the facility before the dog and pony show.  JESUS H CHRIST!!!  COME ON GUYS

 

DO they still have the signs in the Norfolk VA Beach area about Dogs and Sailors staying off the grass?  Fuckin Idiots.

michaelbdasilva
michaelbdasilva 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Old PH2  @NelsonJr i am getting a slight notion here that this bothers you a tad?, I may be wrong but i suspect you need a group hug.   Bwahahahaha, i can just imagine your reaction. these targets are a necessity and valuable training tool to distinguish between a civilian and armed combatant.

if in the field and a teen emerges from around a corner and points a weapon at you, you have mili- seconds to react so as not to get shot. The sight odf a kid is being utilised and exploited by the dissident forces and know that the yanks and other allies will flinch that nano second allowing the kid or woman to score another body bag before being lit up by the rest of the squad. This is a terrorism tactic as the dissidents have an endless  supply of " A disposable labour  force". 

 

I don`t know if i am getting my sentiment across here about the target`s usefulness in sharpening the "friendlies" reaction time and the genuine necessity to use more than just card board cut out pictures of terrs, be they of armed women, kids or your standard garden variety bearded camel jockey. 

A 3D "doll" or puppet or what ever that bleeds and squirts pig`s blood when hit will show selectors back in basic training if they have soldiers or tree huggers in their ranks that they are readying for deployment. the basic tenet here is that the more true to life and shocking the training aid used to instruct troops the better the soldiers will react in the field when faced with armed "soft targets".

 

if a kid has a gun and fires it at someone they are henceforth a valid target.

Back to that group hug,, dude, it aint happenin` sorry i was just yanking your crank.

Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @michaelbdasilva  @NelsonJr  Yeah, the thread was over here:

http://loadoutroom.com/879/gau-19-gatling-50-cal/

There are folks in the community that feel SWCC won't be taken seriously until they can deliver precision ordinance.  I've always said that a blunt tool is sometimes just the thing.  The precision is knowing when to use it.

michaelbdasilva
michaelbdasilva 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Old PH2  @NelsonJr i am not sure about the thread pertaining to stabilizing the platforms on riverine craft but would not having the system "ride" or float in a counter moving "dish" almost help? something like a compass. allow the flow of one direction counter against the other force and thus level the platform at all times, something like a kiddies bowl system on sale here in South Africa  that constantly corrects to prevent the porridge inside spilling out in a moving car or if the kiddie is sitting in their high chair, its on sale from verimark and seems like a legit enough idea if "amped" up to a military application in order to keep the gimble level and shudder free. just a massive brain fart here.

Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @michaelbdasilva  @NelsonJr  That's Ok, It's hotter than a Turkish bath here this morning.  Besides, my Bloody Mary hasn't taken the edge off yet. 

I really think we need to quietly work behind the scenes to do an end run on this.  Much like the need for stabilized weapons platforms on our Riverine boats, if we are serious about killing bad guys we gotta make some tough decisions.

HugeFan
HugeFan moderator 5pts

 @Old PH2  @NelsonJr Love it when you get heated dude! You remind me of some of the cats that I work with.

Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @HugeFan I'm placin' that one in the old mental file, priceless.

HugeFan
HugeFan moderator 5pts

 @Old PH2 Yeah, my football coach used to say that if you make a mistake give it maximum effort... Apparently the DoD feels the same way.

Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @HugeFan Damn near had an aneurism there!  If you had been within 50 feet of me when I read that article in the NyDaily News, then looked at the Virginian -Pilot, OOOh Shit was I hot!  Nothing I ever write here can come close to the words that came out of my mouth.  When the DoD fucks up they do it BIG! 

This comment has been deleted

Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @NelsonJr Here is the response to the original article in the Virginian- Pilot:

http://hamptonroads.com/2012/06/seal-training-range-wont-show-woman-target

 

A lot of the guys really let them have it.  But the DoD and Dept. of the NAVY buckled to the PC pressure.

NelsonJr
NelsonJr 5pts

 @Old PH2

 Unreal....it makes me sick to my stomach.....

michaelbdasilva
michaelbdasilva 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @BrandonWebb @LauraWalkerKC @jack murphy. it is not shocking too see targets depicting people at all. it is easy to forget that shooting a silhouette target is just that a silhouette. depicting a woman or even a teen holding a weapon thereby showing they are combatants is a way of slowly "acclimatizing" soldiers too the fact that they may have to fire upon women and kids tooting weapons as they are not innocent civilians but in fact are belligerent combatants. if a soldier flinches in the field when faced with a sudden appearance of a combatant soldier or woman and hesitates fora nano second he/ she will be the one being bagged out of the operational area. we live in a world where women and kids are increasingly toting guns and doing the fighting especially in guerilla/ dissident arena`s. so the pictures of soldiers shooting "life like' depictions of  terrorists is not shocking at all. its life! the detractors need to understand this. 

 

i believe that soldiers should be trained on ranges and in kill houses using 3 dimensional ballistic dummies that 'bleed" to drive the reality home as opposed to potting paper pop up targets. by shooting a life like bleeding dummy will be shocking to some and those that cannot handle the reality of it all can be weeded out and sent to work elsewhere and kept from contact areas where their inability to shoot wont cost lives t the critical moment. imagine a recruit slotting a dummy and the fake or pigs blood spatters on them? the real soldier will be identified in training and the ones likely too freeze up sent to desk work.

just my 3 cents worth.

IronMike76
IronMike76 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

CAIR is correct: the newspaper that published the photo(s) sent the wrong message. The "journalist" should not have been allowed on a secret installation - or the article should have been vetted and redacted for public consumption. Who's in charge of that outfit anyway?

Mayhem Actual
Mayhem Actual 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

Anyone else out there sick of these ass hats caring about our enemy's feelings?  My ears are bleeding from the shit our "leaders" are worrying about.  Here's a novel idea: analyze the problem, create a solution, execute and follow through.  I guarantee you our enemies aren't worried about hurting our feelings as they plan their next assault.

HugeFan
HugeFan moderator 5pts

 @Mayhem Actual Agreed!

RolandoSantiago
RolandoSantiago 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Mayhem Actual Unfortunately the enemy uses women and children.  Our guys need to train for this in order to give a greater chance of completing the mission, no matter what the circumstance.

NevadaDave
NevadaDave 5pts

 @Mayhem Actual You have to remember that the people who run this country HATE IT! We are seeing the results of a decades-long campaign against us from within. Remember what Kruschev (sp?) said at the UN back in the early 60's? He said something about taking us down from the inside-out. Slow and steady, start in the schools, get the media, then get the big job producers. Exactly that has happened. Folks, unless we fight like there/s no tomorrow, using every means we have available, the United States of America will cease to exist as we know it. I'm 55 years old. I grew up in Western Massachusetts. When I went to school, we learned about how great this country was. Now look at the schools and what they teach. 

 

The USA is becoming a pussified "feel-good" tofu-eating, gay-infested nervana for liberalism. I for one, thank God every day that he didn't design us to live forever. And I thank God every day that I never caused any children to be brought into this world. God help the closest Lib politician to me if I ever get word that I'm terminally ill. 

HugeFan
HugeFan moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @NevadaDave  @Mayhem Actual Wow, step away from the tin-foil hat and get some rest man... think the Nevada sun is melting your melon.

Mayhem Actual
Mayhem Actual 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @HugeFan Agreed!  Not to mention fighting a force that doesn't recognize any type of ROE, using women and children as well as holing up in schools, hospitals and mosques, to further complicate things.  Truly amazing our Warfighters are.  Discipline to the highest degree.

HugeFan
HugeFan moderator 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Mayhem Actual Yeah, we sew our folks up so tight with ROE (look the heart is in the right place but that doesn't count when the head is completely up one's ass) that they have to fight a war... A WAR... like a one legged man at an ass-kicking contest. In fact, that just shows you how utterly amazing our fighting forces are! "Here's what I want you to do... WAIT! I'm going to tell you how to do it... step by excruciating step". Meanwhile the Warfighter suffers... so sad

Mayhem Actual
Mayhem Actual 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @HugeFan  Just so I'm clear, my point is, give our soldiers what they need to succeed and leave the political correctness/feelings out of it.  Defending our country is already difficult as it is.  The last thing we need are groups making it harder for our men and women who serve.

Mayhem Actual
Mayhem Actual 5pts

 @NevadaDave My point exactly.  I'm tired of hearing about this stuff and to your point, it has been deteriorating from the inside out.  The pillars that were built to hold this country up have been under gradual attack, so gradual that most citizens don't realize what is happening or they are so caught up in the current wave of activism that hey can't see past their nose (media-led?).  Brandon's topic is just one example of how far we've fallen as a country when our "Leaders" focus on people's feelings more than they do the real topics of concern.  Give 'em what they need to succeed.  To those groups who get in the way-Leave your feelings at home on the pillow you cried yourself to sleep on.  Simple as that.

browcs
browcs 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

I say shoot away....not every threat is a bearded smelly guy in a far away land.

 

Charlie34
Charlie34 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

A few years ago we developed a wide range of situational targets at a previous job in VA and the idea was to make them as realistic as possible.  We went as far as cutting each target accurately to portray sil's in low light environments and developed sticker kits for the Ivan targets to include plastic weapons to attach as well.  It was basically the idea of a co worker and mine to dress up, grow our beards out and make shit real.  We were both prior service (Infantry and sniper) and thought we could do some good with these. They flew off the shelves even as they were DoD funded and we did lots of business with the boys down at Dam Neck.  We would cater to their needs and customize from there. If they needed a woman in full garb holding a cell phone we did it.  If they needed a guy holding a wad of cash we did it.  Hell, we even had a full size yota with a 50 in the back for some of their bigger toys.  Train as you fight! Not on a budget. It was a pleasure to help.

primeris
primeris 5pts

@Ed @CAIRNational An army buddy once informed-while-giggling that the gene that made kids point guns at soldiers had been eradicated in Iraq

Ed
Ed 5pts

@primeris :) http://t.co/avOMSAaH

Ed
Ed 5pts

@primeris A woman has grenade. Chris Kyle drops her. If he doesn't she takes kids, bystanders, US Marines with her. No gray area.

primeris
primeris 5pts

@Ed No gray area. War-mind makes sure of that, except failing to see repercussions of animosity caused by rampant rain of missiles and waLLs

primeris
primeris 5pts

@Ed I never witnessed any carnage, any combat that caused injury. I did meet the blase lunatics at the controls while grunts lost sanity.

primeris
primeris 5pts

@Ed They did train me well on how to write an angry email. Got an extra deployment before discharge. I was a vegan in the sausage factory.

primeris
primeris 5pts

@Ed I was ready to re-up, but a trivial symbolic detail got left out, and I couldn't sign. The Army couldn't have any more of my soul.

primeris
primeris 5pts

@Ed @PowerfulPeace My mad passion wasn't polite. I got shelved, forced to watch @foxnews and live in military Dunder-Mifflin until discharge

primeris
primeris 5pts

@Ed @PowerfulPeace I psychologically prepared myself for the PSYOP job: Be the first to let my guard down to make conditions safer for Army.

Ed
Ed 5pts

@primeris That's why I agree with @PowerfulPeace

SlicNic5150
SlicNic5150 5pts

@alimhaider I trust the SEALs to know what their doing. @LauraWalkerKC

alimhaider
alimhaider 5pts

@SlicNic5150 @laurawalkerkc I don't know .. Nihad Awad almost has a BS degree. Surely he's qualified.

LauraWalkerKC
LauraWalkerKC 5pts

@alimhaider @SlicNic5150 lol

LauraWalkerKC
LauraWalkerKC 5pts

@SlicNic5150 @alimhaider roger that

Tango9
Tango9 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

I'm 2/3 of the way through "The Legacy of Jihad.  Islamic Holy War and the Fate of Non-Muslims" edited by Andrew G. Bostrom.Want a book rec on jihad history?  this is THE compendium.  http://tinyurl.com/bru4ffo

kevinnash69
kevinnash69 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

so what exactly are they suppose to use as target? i dont recall seeing zombie clowns on the battlefield....

Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @kevinnash87 I guess these would work but PETA may get their panties in a wad:

http://farm8.static.flickr.com/7207/6848759043_56179f3a31.jpg

kevinnash69
kevinnash69 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Old PH2

 lol.... i love shooting those reactive zombie targets. its kinda sad how things are changing....not using real targets, marine drill intructors cant point there fingers, etc.....whats next?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZPLXj860lE

Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @kevinnash87 It's like the thought these boys were running up Ribbon Creek or something.  WTF?

 

http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/gunnyg/jackwebb.html

wendykjohns
wendykjohns 5pts

@BrandonTWebb yes!

SEAN SPOONTS
SEAN SPOONTS 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 6 Like

I'm surprised that CAIR(as a front for Islamist terrorist organizations itself) doesn't put in an order for targets like this for the Jihadis to train on. They've proven themselves very adept at killing muslim women and children over the years. In order to be realistic though you'd have to have the targets be unarmed for the Islamists to train on. Jus' sayin;

HugeFan
HugeFan moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @SEAN SPOONTS Another great point! Where is CAIR's views on the use of infant/adolescent dogs and cats as weaponized-chemical test subject? I don't seem to hear them condemning any atrocities being committed by their brethren. Oh, it's implied? Well, a little vocal affirmation would do nicely in this case. Denounce it, otherwise you look like you're cheering for the wrong side.

JamesMontrose
JamesMontrose 5pts

Gosh, I feel really bad about this. Hahaha! How long do ya think until a "cease and desist" from pan-head?

Medic09
Medic09 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

The guys from CAIR would probably like the targets to resemble Amish or Mennonite women.  Never mind no one has ever had an AK pulled on them by an Amish or Mennonite woman.  I remember the general surprise in '82 with the first reports of IDF soldiers hesitating momentarily when an Arab woman would pull a weapon from under her skirt and get off the first shot.  Yes, indeed, those targets are entirely appropriate and may well save an American warrior's life.  Or doesn't CAIR care about that?

NevadaDave
NevadaDave 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @Medic09 Who cares what CAIR thinks? Fuck those idiots. 

 

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