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The First Gays In Special Operations Units

by Brandon Webb · July 3, 2012 · Posted In: Special Operations

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Brandon Webb

Brandon Webb is a former U.S. Navy SEAL with combat deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan, and elsewhere in the Middle East. His last tour in the SEAL Teams was as the Course Manager for the US Navy SEAL Sniper program, arguably one of the most difficult sniper courses in the world. He was formerly a contributing editor for Military.com, and currently the Editor-in-Chief of SOFREP.com. Brandon is regularly featured in the media as a subject matter expert on military affairs. An avid writer, his last two books (The Red Circle, & Benghazi: The Definitive Report) both hit the New York Times best seller list, and his writing has been featured in print, and digital media worldwide. You can follow him on Twitter @BrandontWebb

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184 comments

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SEAL76

Heterosexuals and homosexuals having been serving together in the armed forces and Spec Ops forever. If you do your job and do it well I don't care about anything else. Heterosexuals have been involved in so many disruptive scandals in the military and naval forces it would be too troublesome to count. So what is the problem?

StormR

@prbreech..For some reason, I can't make the 'reply' button work. However, I'm reminded of the valuable Internet tip: Don't feed the trolls - so I'm not. I suggest you go do another Internet search (since apparently that's where most your Indian knowledge comes from). Search Puyallup Tribe of Indians or the Medicine Creek Treaty. You might want to look up Black Elk as well re: Red Road. As for the BIA...phaftttttttt

prbreech

@StormR

Look, I am through, My intent is not to embarassment or harmful, I sent that info to friends who do this daily....Found it entertaining & disturbing. As i said...You know that i know. I am aware of the Puyallups of Washigton State, Recall many years ago Brando fishing with them to support their right to fish, Hell you were probably there to!......Has nothing to do with it, all of the claims wich doesn't "add up".....Homosexuality being accepted part of your "religion" which you claim or hint is Native -American, etc, etc, There were several "give-away's"....Best of luck anyway in all.

Logan F Crooks

I'm with you Brandon, who cares if you are gay, a woman or a different ethnicity, if you can do your job and protect your buddies and the country, who the hell the cares.

SEAL76

4 Like

This whole "homosexuals in the military" has been beaten to death. Homosexuals have been in SpecOps and every other part of our military and naval forces for a long time. Now they can be open about. End of story. If you are fine with it good. If not not good too but you are not going to stop it. Now it is time to move on to something really important that is effecting the morale of the whole Navy. We must get rid of Aquaflage and ASAP. The entire future of our Naval forces depends on it. How can we do this. I wonder if a homosexual fashion designer is behind it. I doubt it. They have much better fashion sense.

This comment has been deleted

SEAL76

2 Like

@michaelbdasilva Hey given the fact the Special Operations goes back as far as warfare itself it isn't hard to figure out that homosexuals have been part of the group for a long time. Just like they have been in every branch of the military for a very long time. I think you have categorized all homosexuals as the "flamming faggott" type. Sorry buit I just don't see them all that way. No need for such a vitriolic response.

HugeFan moderator

1 Like

Matt: That was funny right there...

SEAL76

2 Like

@Matt2 @michaelbdasilva Thanks for that. I also have a son who is a former SEAL with 10 years of service. His attitude toward homosexuals in the military and in Spec Ops is the same as mine. Neither of us care or are threatened by them. He is now serving as a private contractor and does not care what the sexual preference of his fellow contractors are. He only cares that they are competent and have his back.

SEAL76

2 Like

@Old PH2 The people who seem to be against homosexuals in the military have the mindset that all male homosexuals are"queens", "cross dressers", "flamers" and overtly feminine.This is totally wrong. Those kind of male homosexuals are in a very small minority and would be highly unlikely to join any branch of the military.

Old PH2 moderator

@LauraWalkerKC @michaelbdasilva @Matt2 I want to say "EMASCULATED." But I don't think it's strong enough. And the funny thing is not all gay fellows are the stereotypical pink swisher. I've met a few that where quite honestly very rough customers.

LauraWalkerKC moderator

3 Like

@Old PH2 @michaelbdasilva @Matt2 there's a word . but I'd have to ban myself

Old PH2 moderator

2 Like

@michaelbdasilva @Matt2 I think I get what your saying Michael. I have been wondering for the past 7or 8 years when did the US get taken over by the contributors of the Vagina Monologues? It almost seems as if there has been a systemic attack on manliness. Hoplophobia I might understand, but this is a concerted effort to attack all things that are traditionally considered manly. I'll admit to being a somewhat emotional guy, never could watch Lassie. I have a soft spot for children, women, and dogs. But I can still pull some dumbass into a parking lot and knock some sense into him. When did it become wrong to handle arguments in the old fashioned way? Once it's over every one shook hands and bought a beer, WTF? For Chrissakes now you've got the Police showing up, everyone getting thrown into lock up. I can't tell you how many young men come through the facilities I guard and they can't pass a background check because of the arrest records. WHAT HAVE WE BECOME?

LauraWalkerKC moderator

1 Like

@michaelbdasilva @Matt2 You are the most lovable cuss ;)

michaelbdasilva

2 Like

@Matt2 WHO THE HELL IS YELLING? ooops, i forgot about this silly internet etiquette. please excuse the hell out of me. in the end its all just us uncouth South Africans with our questionable morals that sully the web.. naturally, i dont give a fuck on toast.. please pass the jam.

michaelbdasilva

2 Like

@BrandonTWebb @SEAN SPOONTS @ColonelProp . Well, the Village people just got a new member in their ranks and repertoire. Next to the Indian, police man, construction worker, soldier, there will now be a gay spec ops operator. ALL TOGETHER NOW BOYS,, "IN THE NAVY". what the hell is going on over there?

I don`t have any real maligned problems with those who are "light" in their combat boots but the thought of spending protracted time ALONE in the bush with a guy that has "man pangs" just might see only one of the two man stick emerging from the operation after the "gay brigade" operator tries to snuggle a bit too close for comfort during the night. what will they call the gay unit out on ops? "charge of the light brigade"???

ColonelProp

@michaelbdasilva @BrandonTWebb @SEAN SPOONTS That is why we like your comments Michael. Questions have to be asked, and if we are too PC to ask people will eventually die. Keep poking at it.....

michaelbdasilva

1 Like

@BrandonTWebb @Old PH2 .Possibly the best interrogation tool yet:

Picture the setting. A team of special forces have nabbed a wanted dissident and have him tied to an arm chair in a some dingy room questioning him on Al Qaeda plans and command and control procedures. The operators have all the tools of the trade available to extract information from the prisoner. The chemical induced approach is at hand, the more physical and traumatic removal of finger nails, electric shock and then IN BURSTS TIMOTHY OLIVER in a strappy summer frock with fishnets and fab pumps in this years can do colour, cammies. The spec forces have to physically restrain the wide eyed horror filled dissident as TIMMY AKA TAMMY hikes up her frock to get his " internal interrogation tool" ready for use on the belligerent tight lipped terrorist. to the sounds of Sweet Transvestite Tammy struts over and says " its you and me tonight big boy, spread em cheeks and get ready to sing, bitch". The traumatized Mustapha Al Bin Banged quickly fesses up and spills the beans.

Fuck, if i were being interrogated and a "bubba" waltzed in and said tell us what we want or i am going to show you what a hot date i am", i will not only spill the beans on my mission but i will tell them the secrets of the enemies too.

Jokes aside, it could be a "fucking" good "tool" which can be used in the interrogation room. gone will be the days of pliers, electrodes, water dipping and blood stained floors. Now there will be a mirror ball, sex gel, lotion and the musical stylings of the Temptations , Marvin Gaye and Barry White.

Old PH2 moderator

@michaelbdasilva As Un PC as this is, I'll admit to seeing a variation of just this used on a Shit Bird while in the USN.

This fellow was major league causing problems, refused to follow regs. No matter how hard we bullied and badgered him he just wouldn't meet the standards. One night four guys found him in his rack, held the blanket down pulled his shorts down and placed a cold hot dog between his cheeks. Not only did that boy straighten up he turned out to be and outstanding sailor. I'll admit that episode was extreme, I can't imagine the trauma he faced. I freely admit that we went too far. Our alternative was to beat the living daylights out of him. Both options were wrong and fraught with physical and moral implications. I look back on it, embarrassed, and contrite. There is no way I could apologize enough for what this fellow was subjected to.

I've said it before God needs to sink his boot deep up my ass.

SEAN SPOONTS

@Old PH2 @michaelbdasilva Chow? In the barracks? Don't you realise how much trouble you could have gotten into for that? Lol. Who "keistered" the ball park frank in for you? Or is it DADT?

SEAN SPOONTS

1 Like

@Old PH2 @Old @michaelbdasilva You really have to be a fuck up to get a blanket party at sea. Jeez....

Old PH2 moderator

1 Like

@SEAN SPOONTS @Old @michaelbdasilva This actually happened afloat so it came directly from the mess deck.

michaelbdasilva

1 Like

@Old PH2 the question begs.... who the fuck ate the hotdog afterwards???? in basic training we just beat the shit out of those who were manly challenged ( we utilized the running hoes in the pillow case approach mostly) and in one truly extreme case one of our comrades shat in the boots of one of the "dandelions" who would fuck up our daily inspections and was a dirty cunt as well. in South Africa we call these dudes a " sif seun" which is loosely translated as syphilis boy. He too re joined the program and became a hlf on decent soldier. needless to say he was made a "koffie moffie" "menasie haas" "opskep slet" translated as A) coffee queer, B) mess hall rabbit, C) dish up slut. It sounds way cooler in Afrikaans naturally. . Look , in my defense it was the 80`s in the old South Africa. We were not all that politically correct back in those Utopian days!!?!?!?!?!? .

BrandonWebb moderator

@michaelbdasilva @Old PH2 That was some funny stuff gents...

Old PH2 moderator

1 Like

@michaelbdasilva OOH, you cheeky devil! I didn't stick around to see that part. Yeah my incident occurred in the 80's too. I really don't think of myself as being that old but I am amazed at how things have changed in our armed forces over the last couple of decades.

prbreech

Your a little late on the "pile-on" pitt03! Read & Comprehend before pounding away!

prbreech

@ Sean Spoonts, I have had a very busy week-end, Since getting out of the Marine Corps i have worked in the professional Music Industry, Was lucky & landed a great gig & have been with the same Artist for a number of years.So as i said been busy leading up & on Independance Day. I was going to respond (especially to Argent & Matt2 i beleive it was) who attacked my beleifs almost as i had directed something at them personally. I will alway's feel the same way, The Bible calls "man lying with man" an Abomination, To me it's pretty "cut & dryed". I will say OOooo-Rahh! to your post which you fairly & eloquentely state several facts without attacking anyone. I have had the time to read all the post tonight & after doing so will not respond any further, I think you hit all the valid points. When i posted it was the first time i had seen this site & thought i would do a little "Recon" & check it out, The fact that almost everyone was so supportive of gays in the military is certainly not indicitive with my time & experiences in the Corps,(quite some time back) It was the same way working DoD, USO entertainment tours & speaking with Marine Corps & Army persone in the field. I still feel strongly that repeal of DADT was pure P.C. bullshit. I think nothing produtive will come out of this decision by this admin......Just the opposite. It is rack time for me, Maybe coming through a city near you, Hit me on my e-mail & come out to a show, This Christian will buy you a beer or two..........SEMPER FI! prbreech

BrandonTWebb

@RobMaylor It appears that so far that it's Mission Accomplished!

SEAN SPOONTS

5 Like

O.K. I'm coming back in on this one. I was against homosexuals openly serving in the military at one time. Today, I'm not so sure I'm against it. If the military thinks that openly homosexual service members are going to make the military better in some way I'm willing to give way to their expertise in this regard. Just as I'm willing when it comes to women in combat. Though I did notice that the Joint Chiefs did not go to the President or Congress and say; "Please, we desperately need women in combat and openly serving homosexuals to remain the worlds finest fighting force." But the military answers to the civilian authorities, that's the way things are. If the military can adjust to the changing weapons, tactics and terrain of battle it ought to be able to adjust to this. I hope it goes well, though I fear it will not. That being said, I will go on record saying that homosexuality is not "normal" in terms of Nature unless you want to claim that "normal" means that sex exists for pleasure rather than procreation. If that is the case, don't bother arguing with me about what is "normal" because I don't agree with your redefining what that word means when it comes to the Natural order of things. As for the moral arguments for and against. I'm Roman Catholic by upbringing, the teaching of that faith is that ALL sex outside of a marital union is sinful. The gender of the person you have sex with doesn't matter. People who believe this sort of thing are not kooks, weirdos, bigots or haters. Such people have a religiously informed sense of morality that they take seriously and try to live by(with varying levels of success).....And that 5,000 year old edifice of Judeo/Christian morality is not going to come crashing down because somebody here comes up with a clever put down or insult. Many of these people joined the military because for a very long time it embraced the values and virtues of the deeply religious people who founded it, wrote its laws and regulations and served in it. And many prior and active duty service members believe that those values and virtues are being assaulted by the secular society that exists outside the military. The civilians don't want to be like military people. They don't want to have a sense of duty, honor, loyalty, faith, self sacrifice and virtue imposed on them. They want to live for themselves and their own desires. They don't want to serve any cause higher than themselves. The Secularists want the military culture to be more like the civilian one, because that's the world they live in and understand. Can't you see that some veterans are "Romans of the Old Breed" and see these changes as fundamentally changing the nature of military service? To some people military service is a high calling, perhaps they are thinking of the Book of John where he said "Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." prbreech made a comment that dared to claim that the Bible finds homosexuality unnnatural and immoral(which it does in several places and in overall theme). And some people here who no doubt consider themselves enlightened and tolerant, denounced the guy, called him names, belittled religous belief and even misrepresented Jesus as being in favor of homosexuality. Nice.... So that's what enlightened tolerance is now? In my opinion some of you are exactly what you pretend to hate, you appear to be tolerant of anything as long as it isn't a differing opinion, then your own intolerance comes out as insults and denounciations. I think that sucks......

BrandonWebb moderator

1 Like

@SEAN SPOONTS What's normal and who's to say. My personal belief is that in most cases (there are rare cases where early traumatic experience may way in) homosexuality is NOT a choice but just DNA makeup. The bible can be interpreted a million different ways, just like the Koran.

Good feedback as always Sean. -BW

SEAN SPOONTS

@BrandonWebb @SEAN SPOONTS I think the standard of normal is a knowable thing. Calling something "abnormal" or "unnnatural" doesn't make it evil per say. It simply recognizes that an event or condition present in Nature is not the normal way of things. Look at enough one headed calves and a two headed calve stands out as abnormal for the breed. I go back and forth on what the 'cause' of homosexaulity could be. I suspect like most things its going to end up being a combination of nature and nurture. Heterosexuals serving long prison terms engage in homosexual acts while in prison and then revert to being strictly heterosexual after being released. How does DNA account for that behavior? Early trauma could do it or the rare case where parents want a girl and impose a female gender on a boy. I think attraction is something so deep in the brain and almost innate that we may never understand it completely. I have male friends that I honestly can say I love, but that love doesn't extenuate to sexual feelings for them. Conversely there are girls I have walked past while they were drinking a cup of coffee that I want to have sex with,....for days. If someone asked me why I was attracted to women I'd have a hard time articulating it beyond; "I dunno, I just am and very strongly." But, I notice that homosexuality isn't uniform in its attractions, its actually confusing to look at from the outside. For example, I would think that a gay man would want the most masculine guy he could find, yet there are all these effeminate guys prancing around wearing make up and trying to act like girls,...to attract a guy who is into men? What? You see that same thing with lesbians who you would imagine would be attracted to the most feminine and girly-girl traits possible. Yet they typically look like Chas Bono, a fat unattractive guy with a vagina. It's all very counter intuitive in many ways. And why do so many lesbians work for Fed-Ex? I tought the whole idea of lesbianism was to not have to handle a package? Anyway, I agree that the Bible and Koran are subject to interpretation, but I would assert that there are correct and incorrect interpretations that are obvious by the works that result from that interpretation. The Catholic interpretation of the Bible produces people like Mother Teresa and a host of other self sacrificing people who try to emmulate the example of Christ, while the Jonesboro Baptists are so obviously wrong that they can't persuade anyone to their interpretation of the Bible but a few idiots in their own family. I'd leave it to the fair minded to decide which of these two groups professing Christianity have it right,...or mostly so. Finally, thanks for your input and encouragement. I'm happy to make even the smallest contribution to what you and your team are doing here at SOFREP.

Tango9 moderator

2 Like

@SEAN SPOONTS Sean, for god's sake someone has to teach

you

put in carriage returns.

SEAN SPOONTS

1 Like

@Tango9 Please do. I'd love to know what those key strokes are. It drives me crazy not to be able to make proper paragraphs.

HugeFan moderator

@Tango9 @SEAN SPOONTS Ain't a man in your family if you didn't think was some funny shit right there! LMAO

This comment has been deleted

SEAN SPOONTS

@Matt2 Oh? What do we disagree on?

BrandonWebb moderator

1 Like

@SEAN SPOONTS @Matt2 I personally would like to see less religion (and Chaplains) in the military but this is my opinion and I check the "spiritual" not religous box.

SEAN SPOONTS

@Matt2 Well, we'd certainly disagree on the military being a secular institution. It is deeply steeped in religion. Unlike the civilian world the military has chaplains on the payrol as LDOs. They have religious facilities on base. Until recently you had a war college course on the religious tenents of the Just War theory of Thomas Aquinas, a Catholic theologian of some repute. In boot camp, you can attend devine services while other people are cleaning toilets and shining their shoes. If our military asked its members to abandon their faith and religious beliefs as a condition of service you'd have a hard time filling the ranks and you probably wouldn't like what you do get to fill those ranks. Religion matters in the military on various levels to a very high degree. Religious belief at its very center asks the adherent to step outside himself and his own desires to serve a cause greater than just himself. Doesn't the military ask the same thing of its members? Thinking back, many of the people I saw who failed to make it in the military failed because they just couldn't live outside themselves and adopt the culture of self sacrifice that the military demands. They couldn't lose themselves and serve a higher calling. Think of the words of St John for a moment; "Greater love has no man than this. That he lay down his life for his friends." Don't we often give Medals of Honor to service members who do just that in the example of love offered by St John? In the Middle East our enemies earn accolades for cutting people's head off and killing civilians. In our society we bestow the greatest honor those who sacrifice themselves for their brothers in arms, men who often say that their sacrifice was not for love of country or the Pittsburg Steelers, but for the love of their countrymen. Isn't that like the sacrifice of Christ on the cross? Done not for glory or praise but for the love of Mankind? In a way you are kinda making my point about the secular assault on the virtues of military service. The historian Stephen Ambrose once wrote that in WWII if a squad of infantry came into a civilian town it meant murder, rape and pillage, unless they were American or British soldiers. Then it meant food, medicine and protection. And you think that has nothing to do with the role that religion has played in our military thru the centuries? Now, did prbreech make his point the hard way? Sure, but find me a Marine who ever became a sucessful foreign diplomat. I'm not actually on his side, I just respect his point of view and where it's coming from. And I'm down on people who preach tolerance but have none themselves. As for him calling the gay lifestyle "perverted," that's his call. Maybe prbreech is strickly a meat and potatoes man when it comes to making the "beast with two backs". There are lots of heterosexual acts that can be called "perverted" too and such perversions are practically a Service Rating in the Navy. If you read Brandons book you will recall that he did not earn the nickname "Dirty" because of a lack of personal hygiene.

Old PH2 moderator

2 Like

@SEAN SPOONTS The US Military is not a Democracy, I believe everyone of us that served heard some senior enlisted man say that at some point. Despite the tradition and extreme conservativisim, the US military has also been at the fore front of social change. I remember hearing stories about the USS Kittyhawk and the near mutiny back in the 60's during the civil unrest of that period. The only thing that is constant is change.

The Idea that Jesus taught blind acceptance and "Peace and Love" is baseless. Jesus did not hate people, but he never condoned the sin. There is the difference, as long as you recognized what you did was wrong and made the effort to correct it Jesus accepted you and covered over your sins.

It's all about being responsible for your own actions, something I fear our society no longer considers a core value.

Sorry about the rant, I hereby refuse to make anymore comments on Jesus or his teachings. What I said here covers it all.

SEAN SPOONTS

4 Like

@Old PH2 You make a couple of important points here. Accepting people(including yourself)as sinners who fall far short in the eyes of God is the proper and correct way to show both your humanity and humility before Him. I am a lapsed Catholic, I haven't been to Mass or made confession in decades. I have done many things that I'm ashamed of. But I never tried to fool myself or others into thinking that my actions were righteous or somehow moral because I wanted them to be. As they say in the military you "Embrace the suck," you deal with your regret and guilt and try to do better. But it all starts with recognizing that you are doing the wrong thing. You cannot be forgiven for a sin you will not acknowledge is sinful. I agree that the military has been in the forefront of social change. There were black soldiers serving in Washington's Army. As I said, I hope this works out. This point may be a bit subtle, I don't have a problem with sailors being gay. I do have a problem with gay sailors. The SEAL that Brandon talks about is an example of a sailor who is gay. He just wants to do his job and primarily identifies himself as a SEAL. I'd serve with that guy in a second without any problems. I do have a problem with people putting their sexual identity in front of their military identity. If you can see my point here. I also agree with your point about Christ not being blindly accepting of the sin of others. He certainly wasn't. He went off his nut when he saw the money changers in the Temple and physically went after them and kicked their asses. In his other interactions with sinners he's very compassionate and forgiving but he does command them to "Go and sin no more." Yet with the money changers in the Temple he goes on a rampage. I think the lesson here is clear. He is forgiving of the repentant sinner but not of the self-righteous sinner who uses religion to give justification for his sins..

SEAN SPOONTS

@BrandonWebb @Old PH2 Actually, you you put that thought in my head. Like I said, I used to be opposed to the idea on the basis of unit cohesiveness and service culture. But if Navy SEAL Cheif Petty Officers are in favor of it, who are in the units about which unit cohesion matters the most, I figured I needed to rethink things. So I did.

BrandonWebb moderator

@SEAN SPOONTS @Old PH2 Agreed on sexual identity in front of the job. Well said Sean.

SEAN SPOONTS

@Old PH2 Well, you are my brother then.

Old PH2 moderator

2 Like

@SEAN SPOONTS Brother, I owe you a cold one. I believe you have more eloquently said what I have been thinking since the beginning of this thread.

They say that having Girl children is God's elbow in your ribs for being a sailor. I surely deserve his elbow and maybe a boot well up my ass.

But Militant Feminists, Militant racial equality advocates, Militant anything makes me cry foul. We can't beat each other over the head with our own values, no matter how heartfelt.

I'll gladly stand next to you and call you brother.

HugeFan moderator

2 Like

@Old PH2 @SEAN SPOONTS I have heard this little nugget quite a bit, tell me if you've heard it before: "We're here to protect democracy gentlemen, not practice it." It's funny...

SEAN SPOONTS

1 Like

@HugeFan @Old PH2 I've heard it, yes. And its perfectly true.

Old PH2 moderator

1 Like

@HugeFan @SEAN SPOONTS Can't Say I've ever heard it said like that but again, that's one I'm placin' in the memory vault. We of my generation and those now serving are Volunteers. We willingly give up some of our rights so we may more fully serve as defenders of our Constitution. The public at large has no real grasp of what we loose. They talk about "I appreciate your service." Or worse "I'm grateful for your sacrifice." Hollow words. Give me back the event's I missed, My sister's wedding, my favorite uncle's funeral, the birth of my sister's first child. You can't.

We don't get to pick and choose the things we like about military service, Oh I'll do that but not that. I'll work for Her but not him. That shit won't fly.

This comment has been deleted

prbreech

@StormR Just for my own personal knowledge please tell me what type of "spiriual practice" you are involved in as a :red road chaplin" & which also considers homosexuality as natural, With a purpose in the "Hoop of life"??? Please elaborate! I am from Okla &. a proud member of the Cherokee Nation, I hope you are not basing any of your "observations"or statements on the beleifs & practices of Native Americans! I would truly like to know. Thank you.

LauraWalkerKC moderator

@prbreech No darlin, I'm a Texan. I am now required by birthright to tell you that it is 1:36 p.m. and OU still sucks.

LauraWalkerKC moderator

@prbreech Oh I didn't have any worries about anyone's comments on the subject. Just watching you guys don't get carried away and post personal info about yourselves you may not want out there. All good =)

prbreech

@LauraWalkerKC

Laura are you from Okla.?

prbreech

@LauraWalkerKC

I understand that Laura, I deleted nothing, If you put something out i feel you should be sure of it before hitting Post comment, If you delete you have eitheir recognized a mistake(s), or rethought your position. I am an ole' Marine & maybe set in my ways, When i post it is not meant to degrade anyone or anything, I just feel strongly about gays serving openely in the Military, I will post no more on the ssubject. Thank you.

prbreech

Absentee-Shawnee Tribe of Indians of OklahomaAlabama-Quassarte Tribal Town, OklahomaApache Tribe of OklahomaCaddo Nation of Oklahoma (formerly the Caddo Indian Tribe of Oklahoma)Cherokee Nation, OklahomaCheyenne and Arapaho Tribes, Oklahoma (formerly the Cheyenne-Arapaho Tribes of Oklahoma)Chickasaw Nation, OklahomaChoctaw Nation of OklahomaCitizen Potawatomi Nation, OklahomaComanche Nation, Oklahoma (formerly the Comanche Indian Tribe)Delaware Nation, Oklahoma (formerly the Delaware Tribe of Western Oklahoma)Delaware Tribe of Indians, Oklahoma (formerly the Cherokee Delaware) (formerly the Eastern Delaware)Eastern Shawnee Tribe of OklahomaFort Sill Apache Tribe of OklahomaIowa Tribe of OklahomaKaw Nation, OklahomaKialegee Tribal Town, OklahomaKickapoo Tribe of OklahomaKiowa Indian Tribe of OklahomaMiami Tribe of OklahomaModoc Tribe of OklahomaMuscogee (Creek) Nation, OklahomaOsage Tribe, OklahomaOttawa Tribe of OklahomaOtoe-Missouria Tribe of Indians, OklahomaPawnee Nation of OklahomaPeoria Tribe of Indians of OklahomaPonca Tribe of Indians of OklahomaQuapaw Tribe of Indians, OklahomaSac & Fox Nation, OklahomaSeminole Nation of OklahomaSeneca-Cayuga Tribe of OklahomaShawnee Tribe, OklahomaThlopthlocco Tribal Town, OklahomaTonkawa Tribe of Indians of OklahomaUnited Keetoowah Band of Cherokee Indians in OklahomaWichita and Affiliated Tribes (Wichita, Keechi, Waco & Tawakonie), OklahomaWyandotte Nation, Oklahoma. @ StormR...This does not pertain to the original post but as you responded with the above comment i almost laughed out loud. The tribe you mention is not recognized on any sites, The many tribes above are just in OKLA. Your running down of your supposd ancestory was right out of a t.v. show, We call it "WANNABE'S" in the Cherokee Nation as we encounter a number of theseRE: Two of our tribal members researched & printed Elizabeth Warren's claim & took their findings to her personally, She of course refused to meet with them. In good manner i will say no more to you PUBLICALLY. but please know that I KNOW! You took down the post but not before i copied & pasted them, Especially the one where you claim homosexuality is an accepted part of your religion, Your "Hoop of life" & you are a "Red Road Chaplain" you shame every legitimate tribe & Indian by those claims. ANYONE may go to the BIA or just google in StormR's claims.

StormR

@LauraWalkerKC @prbreech I applaud your balanced view about this. There are pros and cons to enrollment, but for me the heart of it is about cultural identity. I am Puyallup because I was raised Puyallup and continue to live Puyallup. A piece of paper or number won't change that. I've watched my son, enrolled Cherokee, struggle with his identity because he was not raised Cherokee. His wife is enrolled Northern Cheyenne, but was tribally raised so is 'secure' in who she is and where she came from. Lots of different opinions (and arguments) about enrollment in Indian Country.

LauraWalkerKC moderator

@StormR @prbreech My kids' connection is based on the rolls, but really, they have no tribal identity. We're terminally white. So it's novel, like saying you are Irish American, or in my case Scottish/Italian.

StormR

@LauraWalkerKC @prbreech Enrollment requirements are different for each tribe, but all based on some formula of blood quantum. I know full-blood natives who can't enroll in any tribe because the percentage of their blood in one particular tribe is too small. It's flipping crazy. I believe that with Cherokee, one only has to show a direct lineage to someone that was on the Dawes rolls. Individual tribes are also different in if the blood quantum comes from the materarcal or patrearchel (my spelling sucks) side. Enrollment requirements didn't happen this way until the late 1970's, early 80's. The other thing that happened was in the 60's when their was a huge government push to get us off the rez and into urban areas - lots of folks lost touch with their tribal identity as a result.

LauraWalkerKC moderator

@StormR @prbreech My kids are one billionth Cherokee but qualify to register if we wanted to. I find that bizarre. At some point, the ratio is ridiculous. I consider us there lol

StormR

@LauraWalkerKC @prbreech LOL - Exactly! The three most popular claimed tribes are Cherokee, Lakota and Apache. There's an inside joke in Indian Country that they all most have power rabbit medicine to have have created so many off-spring :)

LauraWalkerKC moderator

@StormR @prbreech Shades of Elizabeth Warren lol http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Elections/Senate/2012/0602/Cherokees-hammer-Elizabeth-Warren-on-ancestry-claim-ahead-of-Mass.-party-convention

StormR

@LauraWalkerKC @prbreech Thank you for the reminder. It was appropriate for prbreech to question my 'indianess' and I answered him the traditional way, while being careful not to identify myself further. Since that damn "Dancing with Wolves" movie, we have some of the same issues around claimed identities that the military does. I swear, Geronimo must have had 500 children based on the number of people who now claim to be related to him.:

LauraWalkerKC moderator

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@StormR @prbreech A reminder to everyone about PerSec: there is no such thing as delete. You can delete a post, but it is still out there on the internet, archived or copied somewhere. Be careful. Play safe =)

StormR

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@Matt2 I realized that I had no earned experience or right to speak on this subject. The topic was Gays in Special Forces. I have no personal military experience so I can't possibly know if someone being gay affects operations or teamwork or anything related to the military. If the topic had been more generic: nature or nurture, or religious viewpoints re homosexuality, then I could legitimately share my informed opinion. Sean very patiently showed me the errors of my ways :) It is exactly the reason I didn't respond to the discussions about women in the military. Yes, I'm a woman and have personal opinions on our capabilities, but I do not know the capabilities required for military service. I should have remembered my thought processes about that discussion, before I jumped into this one. If there ever is a topic where I might have a solid contribution to make or expertise to share, then I will speak up. Thank you for your kind compliment.

StormR

@prbreech PS...please let me know when you have read this so that I can remove it.

StormR

@prbreech I have removed all my comments from this thread as it was not respectful for me to speak on this site..on any subject. In addition, I went very off topic and spoke too much of myself. To allay your concern, though, I will respond to primary question. I am a traditional, Puyallup Nation, Coast Salish, Bear Clan, Jack Family, birth daughter of Smogelum Calvin Jack, granddaughter to Jonah Jack, great-granddaughter to Jack, great-great granddaughter to Smogelum. I am elder, grandmother to 6 and a Cannupa carrier. I still live on the rez. I have 3 sons (I by birth and two fostered that I raised). One is Red Road and two are Sun Dancers with the Ghosthorse Family. My youngest is enrolled Cherokee. Frankly, I'm very surprised you do not know Red Road. With that said, if you still have questions, I would be happy to answer them privately. Hoi! (And to any innocent bystanders to this post - I apologize, but he requested the formal introduction..a bit like giving one's credentials.) I will delete this post later also.

SEAN SPOONTS

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@StormR I disagree with your point on the relative value of opinions boiling down to simply a difference in viewpoints. One of us is right and the other is wrong. Homosexuality is clearly and unambiguously declared a sin in Romans, I Corinthians and of course Leviticus. If you have decided that its natural and normal and part of some "Hoop of Life" (Whatever the hell that is) I suppose you would also have to find adultery and fornication normal and natural as well, because they are also declared sinful acts right along side of homosexuality in the Bible. I don't despise others for their sins anymore than I despise myself for mine. But I do recognize sin for what it is and try to avoid it as best I can and can make no accommodation for those who try to make sin some sort of virtue. And we don't agree that our Creator did not believe that some of us were lesser than the others. The Virgin Mary was not picked at random. Moses didn't win a lottery. Noah was specifically chosen by God for his piety. The disciples of Jesus were all select men and among them Peter was their leader and the "Rock" upon which Jesus would build his Church. There is a cut. I don't dispute anything you say about native Americans, internment camps or slavery. I would point out that the Native Americans weren't particularly nice to each other either, that only Japanese living on the West Coast were interred along with Germans and Italians too. And that the movement to end slavery was led from the pulpits of this county. It was the live and let live secularists who thought being against slavery and being for slavery was all just a matter of opinion and relativistic morality.

SEAN SPOONTS

@StormR If you are always as honest with yourself about being in error as you have just been, you will be widely respected around here. Please accept my remarks in the spirit in which they were intended. In Fellowship.

HugeFan moderator

3 Like

@StormR @SEAN SPOONTS I truly like your views on what it means to be a Christian, it's a relief to feel like you're not alone in thinking that homosexuality has always been and will always be. One should make whatever peace that they need to ecumenically with that and move on to more serious issues. I can think of a lot more pressing items to resolve in this country; people's sexuality or sensual predilections just doesn't show up anywhere on my list.

The First Gays In Special Operations Units

The First Gays In Special Operations

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