Initial Reports From Benghazi Libya Indicate Planned Attack

@KineticFury @SEAN SPOONTS The Russian's warned us not to go into Libya, because even though Gadafi was a ruth-less killer of his own people, at least we knew who we were dealing with. Now we haven't got a clue.

 @SEAN SPOONTS  @KineticFury Much of the workings of our military and nat'l security is still left over from the last administration, and mil cuts are natural after a big conflict, but yeah.

POTUS (I don't want to go into politics on on this site, or anywhere tonight) doesn't seem to understand real leadership. 

POTUS could have been a great, commanding, international figure, but has remained too passive and PC. It is a sign of weakness. First thing that should have happened in 2008 is a communication of our vision in Iraq, Afghanistan, and the middle east and then a deliberate, relentless plan of action to bring about 'the end' goals. Not just a 'benchmark' in Iraq or another confirmed kill in pakistan.

. The purpose of office of the Presidency is to provide leadership and make decisions. You need to be very proactive and deliberate if you want to do that well.

The United States can and should have more and better (and perhaps more, uh, ethically correct ) influence in the world than it does right now

 @MedicSteve2  @HugeFan I just want every single person involved in perpetrating the attack to find karma from the mean end of an US projectile.

 @MedicSteve2  @HugeFan

 Glad the report was wrong.  Sick rumor.

 @MedicSteve2  @HugeFan  Good enough for me!

 @majrod  LOL... Shit, like 600 comments deeper into the post, good hunting!

I didn’t check your Gothic Serpent numbers but where are the regular Army  numbers?  If you look at Desert Storm we lost 190 with enemy casualties  being anywhere from 20 – 35K.  That would be 105 to 185 to ONE kill  ratio…

As for Marine Infantry’s dominance over Army infantry and equivalency to Rangers I think you are pretty unfamiliar with the training regimens of Army Infantry and Rangers.  (BTW, there’s a HUGE difference between the Infantry skills of an Army Infantryman and an Artilleryman.  I don’t know how you even compare.) 

Just to look at marksmanship briefly to illuminate what you don’t know.   First off let me be clear I’m not slinging mud at Marines.  They do a great job and I personally like the emphasis they put on marksmanship vs. the Army but their marksmanship program isn’t so much better as it is different. 

For instance Marines have reputation for marksmanship and pride themselves on shooting 500 m targets during qual.  Well they fire 10 of 50 rounds at 500m targets.  They have a target that is 6’x6’ ft (or 36 sq ft of target!) and a full MINUTE per round and a hit ANYWHERE on that target counts for points.   In fact all Marine targets (Able, Dog and B mod) are larger  than Army targets and unlike shooting Army silhouettes, if you miss the black  you still get point and can qualify. 

All 40 engagements on Army qual ranges are presented for 3 – 7sec depending on range with double exposures getting 12 sec.  Only 20 of the Marines 50 engagements in table 1A are fired “quick fire with an average six seconds allotted per round at again, larger targets.  There's strengths to both programs but one isn't clearly superior to another. 

Oh, Army Infantry qualifies twice a year to the Marines once and Rangers  qualifications (which are FOUO last time I checked) are so beyond what Army and  Marine Infantry do that there’s no comparison. 

I also reject your position without any evidence that marine Infantry has an  edge when it comest o Infantry training and in effect would challenge that some  Army units like the 82nd or 101st actually have equal if not better specialized  infantry skills than a regular marine Infantry unit but even for the mechanized  Army infantryman climbing out of the back of a Bradley or Stryker isn’t much  different than using the ramp on an AAVP7. 

You are factually incorrect in comparing the Stryker and LAVs  survivability.  Besides never seeing SLAT armor for LAVs( though it may  exist) the armor on a Stryker is thicker and denser than a LAVs.  That’s  why they don’t float.  I would also tell you the fire control of an M1128  Stryker, Bradley or M1 is significantly more complicated than a video  game.  I’ve played video games and am both M1 and Bradley commander  qualified.  They’re different.  I could go into the gunnery training  but I hope you’re taking my word for it.  M1126 is the most simple but you  were talking M1128s (105mm gun).  Oh and the LAV turret/fire control is almost identical to the Bradley turret not the Stryker. 

Tactical advantage doesn’t trump the fact that the enemy always gets a  vote.  If not we wouldn’t have lost so many Rangers in Somalia or SEALs in  Panama, SEALs /Rangers on Roberts Ridge and dozens in Chinooks in  Afghanistan.  You’re promoting an organization to go into threat  environments with a minimum of intel without a significant QRF.  That’s a  weakness if not a problem.  Like I said look at Kenya and Iraq for how we  mix conventional and SOF.

Your drone point is mute.  You need more firescouts to do what a  predators does which increases visibility (firehawks fly lower also).  BTW,  predators can land countries away.  We were using them in Libya and they  weren’t landing there…

You mention the MUE’s lack of “cultural training” but as I mentioned.   Cultural engagement requires you to work with the locals increasing your profile  and requiring time to build rapport.  What do you think cultural training  gets you in a raid?

 @majrod If the SOBCT included a QRF it would be present alongside the rest of the forces deployed, I am not excluding that factor.

My kill ratios are based on what your said, in Gothic Serpent the Rangers had something like a 38x KIA ratio for each KIA they took.

I base the equivalency on the level of training they received, you must understand is that Rangers and Marine Riflemen standards in terms of marksmanship and small unit tactical training is greater then say a infantrymen, or a artilleryman. That level of training is what seperates them from someone in the military who stays inside the wire and makes coffee.My intention wasn't to create a who's dick is bigger between rangers and marines, they are two different types of specialized infantry, marines being trained to conduct from sea operations and Rangers are survivalist storm troopers of the US Army.

Who saying lift them from a ship, fly them in from a C-17.

As far as the Stykers survivability and fire controls, one its no different then the LAV-25 which is combat proven, i would imagine in a Libya style event such as this, which the attacking force was light infantry armed with various RPGs and 82mm Mortars, PKM etc that what showed up to bail them out was a collection of 4x4 commercial trucks, one had a 23mm ZU aaa gun in the back, this was enough to break out, i would imagine if that could be accomplished against said force with just this, four Stykers with all types of special operations mods (think miniguns lots of miniguns) would kill anything moving. The Fire control of the M1126 is like a video game its more likely older soldiers have issues with using such controls but a 19 or 23 year old would be at home with such controls.

If your going to cite World War 2 as a reference to say that a combined arms force of SEALs or Delta units with modern night vision, custom armor,( Black Fox etc) its really not going to hold water. I agree that a 30% KIA of one of these forces would not be fun to recover it would take years to train up the quality of soldiers. But they would have so much tactical advantage.

The UAV are about basing, if you can't get a runway for a predator to take off from the firescouts don't require its. If you think about the purpose it would be for barely visible force, having predators would inflame the "drone war" talking point.

The point is that a MEU is a great model but its filled with Marines who don't have cultural training to keep a low profile in country. You couldn't deploy a MEU to Mali without everyone knowing about it.

So when your talking about the MEU's MRF/MSPF your not talking about some riflemen but Force Recon vets in the Direct Action Plt, ANGLICO, Radio Recon, & the HET.

@jl2l No offense but your making assumptoins about the limitations of the MEU. K.I.M. the MEU is a scalable, task-organized force including a Special Missions arm whose capability was verified by SOCOM in their evalution done on Det 1. Det-1 was a detached MSPF (now called MRF). The declassified report written by SEAL LtCmd Mark Devine stated the Det demonstated the ability to conduct SO, SM, & SA. With that said the MEU, being scalable & task organized, routinely operates as a split MEU w/ships spread across 1000s of miles & Dets in multiple countries. Also the ships of the ARG/MEU are the perfect platform to maintain a small foot print. Albeit the MEU is more geared toward short notice/crisis response then long-termed engagement the capability inherent in the MEU.

 @RVN SF VET  Agree.

I think you meant 30% casualties renders a unit combat ineffective.  This is doctrine. 

"RED indicates that the unit is at 50 to 69 percent strength (combat ineffective, unit has major losses or deficiencies);"https://rdl.train.army.mil/catalog/view/100.ATSC/6C01FFE5-0DF6-415F-A13C-92ED36A708CA-1303039189337/1-02/appd.htm

if you don't have an AKO account a link to a later manual.

 http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/army/docs/fm101-5-1/f545-aca.htm

Obviously numerous factors as you described can impact a unit's effectiveness but just want everyone to know the doctrinal rule of thumb is 30% because some may quote us because we served for significant amounts of time.  Just want to put out the most accurate info avaialable.

 @jl2l

 @majrod  @jl2l There are different kinds of Marines and different types of Army soldiers. Comparisons are both odious and difficult.

On an unrelated note, in WWII, if  unir suffered 15% x=casualties (this happened to some units at Normandy) the unit was considered combat ineffective. BUT, the Airborne troops showed up at their objectives with often less than 25% of their force and took every objective. Attitude and training make up for a lot. I do not know what percentage of Army Rangers got to the top of the cliffs at Pointe du Hoc, but when it was over, of 225 Rangers, 135 were killed and wounded.

 @jl2l  You didn't address my issues.  QRF/Time

I don't accept your arbitrary kill ratios.  Upon what is it based?

I don't accept your equivalency of a Marine and an Army Ranger.  Again, upon what is it based?  This alone can be its own thread with a lot of hurt feelings.  Maybe we shouldn't go there?

Strtykers can't be lifted from a ship to a combat zone by aircraft.  The Stryker & M1126 are less protected against RPGs than armor and the gunnery skills of an M1126 are a whole other skill to learn.  We saw the adding of conventional capability to light forces in WWII with the FSSF, Rangers and Airborne divisions.  It increased the use of these forces in conventional ops with the resulting casualties and inability to rejuvinate quickly.  Subsequently, they disappeared. 

When a delta squadron takes 30% casualties it takes at least a year to recover capability. 

Firescouts are nowhere near as capable as predators.  Just the 8 hour endurance means you need three for persistent stare capability on a very limited location.

Instead of ad hoc organizations incorporating conventional capabilities for specific raids, task organization of conventional units has worked for decades.  Why are we reinventing the wheel?

 @majrod  @Oscar Mike I think Four M1126 MGSx105mm is enough firepower to scary some Skinnies.The biggest think we lack over then(1990s Somlia) was we didn't have the M1126 which is airlift able via C-17. It was also a political decision not to include armor, which i don't think any administration would make again (ie not to repeat what happened)I would imagine the force multiplier that you get versus one seasoned (5+deployments) Delta/SEAL shooter, versus a Marine, would be something in the order of 4x, ie one SOF operator on average would kill 4x times as many KIA before being killed themselves, so by sheer virtue of using SOF shooters versus Riflemen/Rangers.

This is very generalized but I would in raw terms of skills base a Riflemen Marine equal to a Army Ranger (prehaps a Airborne 82nd paratrooper even) in terms of firearms training and combat effectiveness while working deattached from a command element (ie in this type of rescue scenario), this KIA rate would alone have something like a 32x rate (if you compare to operation like Gothic Seperent) which was 700 SOM KIA versus 18 US KIA which is around a 38x Rate.Im not suggesting at all that there not be a QRF force, there is one in fact it is composed of SEALs or Delta trained to operate from dismounted M1126s, i would imagine at some command level when JSOC composes this force a decision is made to include a QRF element which would be the equlivant of adding three more C-17s to the deployment, ie 3xC-17 carry over the initial SOBCT, and then if more options are required ie your worried about a embassy being stormed QRF force can be quickly attached via 3 more C_17s carrying the armor needed. But these arent drawn from soldiers which lack the cultral acuteness for operating in very complex countries like Post-Arab Spring Middle EastOne of my major reason for creating this force is that by employeeing SOF operators you would avoid some of the traditional incidents you get when you have "regular" American boys stationed (ie pissing on korans) i would imagine SOF are at a lower level trained to be aware of what to not do, so you would in turn have a better rapport with local troops, and in manny cases local SOF has already cross trained with this units, and could act as a bridge between local military/security forces ( this is what happend essentially in Bengazi, a Libyan SOF commander took 8 SEALs to the compound, having the Libyan SOF commander there would greatlying increase the cooperation of local units be it police or military.

As afar as ISR it would come in the form of ummanned systems which are embeded, the RQ-6B Fire scout is a perfect platform for this, doesn't require a 'Drone" base. You could also gather HUMINT from embed SMU units used to operating in plain clothes and without drawing attention to ones self, Delta has this ability and frequlently can blend when they need too.

I think it is largerly a double edge sword in some instances you want a visible American presences, but lately it seems the mere presence of Americans (especially combat grunts) in country only incites these jihadist further. So i think there is a much larger argument to be made that its better we be hear but never seen, unless we are the last thing you see before your double tapped.

 @jl2l Interesting?  How does this unit respond to a situation like Gothic Serpent without a robust QRF?  (keep in mind some reports state there were 400 bad guys at Benghazi and they had everything up to mortars and SAMs)  How does it shortcut the requirement for detailed intel to launch raids and how does it establish rapport with local troops if it's segregated fron them?  Keep in mind it took us about a month to start operating in Afghanistan with all the nation's assets focused on it.

I believe your organization already exists and is in effect in Djibouti Kenya though it has at least a BN of Marines or Soldiers to provide local security and a QRF.

Consder an approach where intel operates in a region developing intel while assets are selected and deployed to conduct the raid and are then withdrawn.  This appears to be the MO for operations in Yemen, Somalia and the Phillipines. 

A problem with these forces is they often don't supply the political and public need to be seen to be "doing something" in response to a crisis.

 @Oscar Mike

 @Oscar Mike A MEU is something like 2200 Marines, I am thinking something considerably smaller. Its true the MEU[SOC] is a good working model for this force, but its only a Marine force and 1000 of those Marines are Grunts without something critical, the cultural training of SOF forces, which is critical in operating in small unit/small deployments.

Army SF have much better skills at working with local forces which is critical to keeping a low profile, something this unit would be built around. The idea is to be able to deploy a force that won't send the signal that Team America just set down in your homeland. A MEU while bring firepower and combined arms /air ground / sea to a extend does give it the punch needed to say punch a corridor through Syria for humanitarian aid to get through, but that would be a very visible operations, which would put US forces at risk for asymmetric attack or something as simple as a snatch and grab, which would increase the  clout of these groups they are trying to make a name for themselves in the vacuums which come from a fail state or civil war.

Imagine JSOC taking all four SOF branches and making a composite force.I think its largelly already like this, as Delta cross trains with SEALs etc, but the command structure for these units remains branch specific, ie there are few Delta commanders running SEALs units, and i think its possible for a Delta commander to be able to train to command a SEALs unit and understand how they function as a force and what they bring to the table vs a Delta unit. Both Navy and Army commanders at the ground level should be able to work together and interchangeable. The USAF should be used as a critical joint in this force which provides airlift, and the big stick in the form over a B-52 or A-10, this would come form intergrating AFSOC controllers into all of these units, each SOBCT would have its own AFSOC combat controllers units which could place a controller in each ground team.

This force would be no larger then 150-250 personnel including support logisitics.

A  SOBCT would look like this:two Squadrons of Detla units (85 shooters x2) (could  be interchanged with Force Recon/SEAL), supported with a 160th Air mobility unit (MH-60/MH-47) and a air support unit ( MH-60 DAL/AC-130s), these would all fit into three C-17s, these would be augmented with a ISR unit (unmanned) and a command unit inside the command unit would be the senior unit commander either a Delta or SEAL commander with a AFSOC combat controller right next to him to call in fires, a sniper team(any branch), and then a clandestine recon unit, (think plain cloths operators doing recon) .

if needed the Delta unit could include another C-17 (4 M1126 [2 ICV+Mortar Or MGS + Command)  for armor support or another set of C-17s with a Ranger Company 150 + Stykers if you do want to be visible.

The whole point of the force would be small, and entirely air mobile, and nonvisible. These forces are much smaller and able to be deployed without a major US staging area, they could operate off a ship or inside of a foreign military base.

In a  instance like Libya this unit would have been sent via air to land in Benghazi, with permission of the government and setup base, and then conduct raids to kill these guys.

You pretty much just described a MEU. A reinforced rifle battalion w/helo, mech, & clandestine raid capability. This includes a Special Missions capability provided by the Maritime Raid Force composed of a Force Recon direct action platoon, ANGLICOs Air/Fires Control, the HET & Radio Recons deep Human & Signals Intel capabilties.

 @majrod  @jl2l  @pavaovicario Mmmm hmmm...

 @jl2l  @HugeFan  @pavaovicario  You'd be surprised what's in Kenya.

 @majrod  @HugeFan It was well-reported that a large number of the IED/EFP were being made in Iran as well.  Plus, that POS Al-Sadr has many known ties to Iran.

 @majrod  @HugeFan I remember when that raid went down.  Methinks there are many more of those instances that we aren't getting sitreps on.

 @HugeFan  @Contagio  Karbala raid occurred on a joint US/Iraqi HQ 20 Jan ’07.  The raid was conducted by American looking individuals wearing US ACU uniforms/weapons/radios and black GMC suburbans posing as a US security element allegedly led by a blond haired individual.  They were waived through Iraqi checkpoints and once at the HQ took it down in a choreographed manner.  Suppressed the outside security element with grenades killing one American and capturing two more, placed explosives in the stationary US vehicles, cleared the building (rumored use of flash bangs) where they captured two more Americans.  After withdrawing they were followed and when they thought they were about to be captured they executed the four Americans and ditched their vehicles and uniforms.

This raid was conducted after the US captured five supposed revolutionary guard members in Irbil Iraq which is suspected to be the motivation for the raid.  The Karbala raid also bears many similarities to the Hezbollah raid in 12 July 2006 that resulted in the capture of two dead Israeli soldiers. Ali Moussa Dakdouk, a Hezbollah fighter was captured in Iraq on 2 Jul ’07 and established a link between the Quds force and the raid.  The Irbil Five were released in July ’09 as well as Dakdouk to the Iraqis upon our withdrawal contrary to the military’s desire to move them to Gitmo.

http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2007/01/the_karbala_attack_a.php

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/more-iran-s-brazen-terrorist-plots_595775.html

 @majrod  @Contagio Nope, please advise.

 @HugeFan  @Contagio  Are you familiar with the Karbala raid?

 @Contagio Which is feeding my little conspiracy about the Quds being involved. These fuckers are trying to be "poetic"... real cute shit birds...

My thoughts about '79 as well.  Eerie how similar the lead-up was.....oousted US-backed dictator and all.

 @Contagio  You know I had that deja vu feeling when the Egyptian mob stormed the embassy and pulled down the flag and Iran in '79.

That was the same year (and last time a US ambassdor was killed (in Afghanistan) and there were widespread deonstrations in the middle east.  I think the Yemeni US embassy was ransacked and burned then also.

I thought you might be headed there.  There is an awful lot of cooperation between groups that all of the "experts" said for years couold never happen.....sunnis working with shia, etc.  The MB has been evil since Al Bana founded it in the '20s (check me on this).  I wasn't a fan of any of the "arab spring" nonsense due to the fact that democracy without a civil society or morality is simply Mob Rule (see France, circa 1789).  After Operation Cast Lead, when even the UN (Useless Nuisance) agreed that the terroristas were placing their launch sites and weapons in neighborhoods and near schools, I have pretty much zero sympathy for them.

 @Contagio That's exactly where I am going with this. Morsi being the Muslim Brotherhood "moderate" (OXYMORON!) I mean, we helped these guys out! So here is where I am at with this...

For all current and future terrorists and Middle Eastern inhabitants out there: this is all the evidence that I have needed as a proud American to just simply look the other way when a hospital or school gets hit by a US bomb. Before I would have really felt bad and would have wanted to do something about it. However, after supporting your uprising(s) against tyranny last year and providing you with food and aid through various US-backed NGO's; I can honestly say no more. I have given the "olive branch" the chance and I am now firmly planted against you and your culture. I'm done with you. If you want to come here and embrace your life as a human being (with democratic/free society principles) then I strongly urge you to do it because I could care less if your neighborhood is only identifiable by a crater created by a JDAM. Fuck Yo Couch.