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Home » SOF News » Civil Liberties Watch: First Amendment Under Pressure

Civil Liberties Watch: First Amendment Under Pressure

by BK · September 21, 2012 · Posted In: SOF News
Civil Rights Watch: First Amendment under pressure
Although it is becoming more clear by the day that the embassy attacks in the middle east last week were not merely the result of an inflammatory movie, but a planned and well-orchestrated attack, the voices seeking to weaken the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution are becoming more shrill.

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A professor of religious studies at the University of Pennsylvania, Althea Butler, wrote that the maker of the film should be imprisoned. Hilariously, she even touts her status as a tenured professor to trot out the obligatory, “yes, I support freedom of speech, but…” (There’s always a “but,” isn’t there?) Journalist Mike Barnicle said that the preacher Terry Jones, who had merely promoted the film, should be arrested. Naturally, his fellow journalist Donny Deutsch was quick to agree. Many supposedly liberal celebrities called for the filmmakers to be punished.  The White House confirmed that it had requested Youtube to remove the film, which, to their credit, they refused to do.

Perhaps some background of precedent is necessary. No less a constitutional authority than music producer Russell Simmons brought up Oliver Wendall Holmes’ famous observation that, “you can’t yell ‘fire’ in a crowded theater” as a reason to imprison the filmmaker. Ironically, Simmons has championed himself as a defender of free speech in the past, but seems to have changed his mind. To be fair, he wasn’t the only dopey public figure to make this case.

To use the theater example, falsely yelling “fire” in a theater could conceivably result in an immediate panic, resulting in a very probable, immediate loss of life or serious physical injury.To say this is the same as watching a film on Youtube that makes bad pornography look positively Spielberg-esque  is absurd.

Holmes’ quote comes from a significant first amendment case in 1919, Shenck vs. the United States.  Socialist Charles Shenck was arrested and indicted for violating the 1917 Alien and Sedition act, distributing leaflets advocating opposition the military draft. The Supreme Court, in a unanimous decision, upheld the arrest of Shenck, establishing the “clear and present danger” test, which held that speech may be banned if it was likely to cause immediate harm to the United States.

This decision has been narrowed considerably in the decades following, most notably by Brandenburg vs. Ohio. Here, the Supreme Court established the “Brandenburg Test,” which held that, for speech to be held unconstitutional, there must exist intent, imminence and likelihood. Muslims living thousands of miles away rioting over a movie that has been on Youtube for months hardly meets the criteria of imminence, despite what this ludicrous editorial in the Los Angeles Times might think.  In addition, one must believe that Muslims are mindless savages with no self-control and a predilection for violence in order to make the case of likelihood; itself a bigoted and slanderous belief.  These gentlemen might take offense to that characterization.

Finally, there is absolutely no proof that the creator of the film acted with the sole intent of causing rioting and death in foreign countries. And even if he had, a movie that inflames Muslims by depicting revered cultural icons in an unflattering way can hardly be banned under the first amendment. If that was the case, one may suppose a certain White House-backed movie should be banned immediately.

This outrage is also curious considering there seems to be a different outlook depending on which religion one is mocking. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton was quick to denounce the Innocence of Muslims as “disgusting” and “reprehensible.” The Secretary was not quite as disgusted when she attended the hit Broadway Musical, “The Book of Mormon,” which offended a great many people in a similar mocking way, yet garnered nine Tony awards and was the toast of Broadway. One wonders if the Secretary would have issued a similarly disgusted statement if only the Mormons would have stormed the theater and burned it to the ground in protest. Or if she would have run taxpayer-funded television commercials denouncing the musical, as the U.S. is now doing in Pakistan.

The United States is unique in the world today in that our speech laws have become more relaxed. Campus speech codes have fared poorly in the courts. Flag burning amendments have failed to pass. While other countries (I’m looking in your direction, Great Britain) have tightened speech laws to ban “hate speech,” the U.S. allows it. It is clear that Muslim countries do not understand why the United States does not acquiesce to their wishes and arrest the filmmakers. This is evident by this column from Palestinian journalist Khalid Amayreh.

Referencing his attendance at American universities, Amayreh writes, “Having studied at and graduated from a number of American colleges, I realize how most Americans are jealously fanatical about preserving and clinging to their constitution, especially the First Amendment.” Bravo, Mr. Amayreh.

Unfortunately, Amayreh continues on. Speaking of the ACLU, he writes, “But the ACLU, which has done many good things and defended many good causes, can not guarantee that insulting religious symbols will not lead to further bloodshed.” Mr. Amayreh should know that the ACLU is not in the business of guaranteeing anything, much less the reaction of millions of individuals to insult. Besides, the muslim community are hardly innocent of insulting other’s religious beliefs.

But the definitive sentence which shows his mindset is this: “In the final analysis, my right not to be offended and insulted overrides a scoundrel’s right to malign the Prophet of Islam in order to satisfy his sick Islamophobia.” No, Mr. Amayreh, you are incorrect. In the United States of America, you do not have the right to not be offended, regardless of what the U.N. Secretary-General may believe.

It is unfortunate the U.S. government did not respond differently to the protests. A simple, “The United States government is not in the business of regulating its citizen’s speech” would have hit just the right note. Instead, we witness the groveling apology from the embassy in Cairo, that even the White House disavowed, which they are now frantically trying to flush down the memory hole. Not to mention the administration trotted out U.N. ambassador Susan Rice to directly contradict accounts of the attacker’s motives from the interim president of Libya, Mohammed Magarief.

It is past high time that the Muslim world grow up and begin acting like the peaceful religion that the mainstream media and politicians constantly assure us that it is. Part of that is to realize that being offended is part of life, and they would be better served by ignoring those that would mock them.  After all, other religions have had to put up with being mocked for a very long time. And when you’ve lost the New York Times, you’ve lost everyone.

Exit Question: Are the French now the free speech standard-bearer?

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JBeechel
JBeechel 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

"“yes, I support freedom of speech, but…” (There’s always a “but,” isn’t there?)"

 

A wise man once told me that nothing someone says before the word but really counts.

 

I always appreciate the balls on a journalist who wants to limit speech.

SEAN SPOONTS
SEAN SPOONTS 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

"CNN and MSNBC Pundit Arrested for Vandalizing Anti-Muslim Ad In N.Y. Subway"   

 

"The New York Post reported Egyptian-American columnist Mona Eltahawy  has been arrested for defacing an anti-Muslim ad in the New York subway system.  The video shows her spraying pink paint on the ad while a supporter of the ad  tries to block her. She's a journalist for censorship."

 

 Read more: http://newsbusters.org/blogs/tim-graham/2012/09/26/cnn-and-msnbc-pundit-arrested-vandalizing-anti-muslim-ad-ny-subway-syste#ixzz27gEMi000

MedicSteve2
MedicSteve2 5pts

 @SEAN SPOONTS That was a flippin hilarious video. I felt bad for the lady who got her sweater trashed, but, WOW!  That Mona-Lisa chick was off the scale.  

 

I could hear the voice of my dad saying, "Steve, A little knowledge is a dangerous thing."  My old man gets smarter all the time.

Icegator
Icegator 5pts

 @SEAN SPOONTS 1st amendment should be taken as whole, not just the parts you agree with!

SEAN SPOONTS
SEAN SPOONTS 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

@Icegator Agreed. But look at the reaction of Ms Eltahawy to free speech she doesn't like; censorship, vandalism and denounciation. She has no idea what free speech is. She's a garden variety fascist.

Icegator
Icegator 5pts

 @SEAN SPOONTS  

 Right, and I beT her type would be the first to have a conniption if someone wanted to limit freedom of the press!

Jaycel Adkins
Jaycel Adkins 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/09/18/how-to-be-a-good-commenter/

StormR
StormR 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Jaycel Adkins  Thank you for sharing that link!   I'm going to bookmark it as a refresher course for myself.  I (embarrassingly) found myself to be guilty in a couple of areas and it was really good food for thought. 

 

So, on topic, it is somewhat ironic - and appropriate - that a discussion about free speech should lead to such hot debate about free speech.  In an odd way this debate proves both the value and danger of free speech and well fits into the view of both sides of the debate.

Jaycel Adkins
Jaycel Adkins 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @StormR 

 

"We are all sinners in the eyes of...."

 

;-P

 

I broke a few AFTER reading it, so there ya go....lol....still trying though....still trying

hjw1dr
hjw1dr 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Jaycel Adkins  @StormR I can't remember who said this, but I heard it somewhere.... "Freedom [of speech] is messy, but it's better than the alternative."   ;-)

hjw1dr
hjw1dr 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Jaycel Adkins excellent link.  and excellent advice! 

I'm saving that link for further consideration. 

hjw1dr
hjw1dr 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

Wow. Interesting comments, and thought provoking too. (Both Jeffreycarr and BK)

I agree that,  "just because we have the right to say what we want (within limits) doesn't mean we should," is true ... (also within limits).  But what if what you say is insulting, but basically true?(Now.. before you jump to conclusions-- I'm not saying the video was in anyway true or a tasteful way to convey a truth)

 

But if you speak a truth---for example, that there are some people (Islamic Fundamentalists) who wish to impose a totalitarian regime in the Middle East (if not the world), and who advocate for the destruction of Western way of life (and values). And what if what you say involves criticism of Islam, and how fanatics use that religion to destroy?  And what if, by saying it ,you happen to offend some Muslims --  does that mean you should not say it? 

 

Sometimes speaking the truth provokes people. For example, speaking about the truth of racism in 1950-60s American South provoked a lot of riots and protests. Should people have stopped speaking out about segregation because it caused racial conflict? Of course not. 

 

So what do we have here? In the Middle East there are protesters who shout hate, "Death to America"  and advocate violence, "Kill all Jews."  Yet, they have the gall to accuse the West of intolerance and hatred of Islam (using the video as trigger). Does anyone see the hypocrisy displayed there?  Seems like tolerance is going only one direction there...

 

To me, the larger question is this: what are the larger goals of these violent protests? 

Is it a demand that the West never criticize Islam? Why?

And if the West concedes, what would be the outcome for the West ---especially when dealing with the propaganda conveyed to the minds and hearts in the larger context of this war?

 

Just sayin--

 

 

Capt Rob
Capt Rob 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

What a joke this country is becoming because of some evil shitbag religion .

shagstar
shagstar 5pts

 @sawgunnr

 please, look at the authers of the vitriol before you condem our country.

jeffreycarr
jeffreycarr 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

Yet another example of religious hate speech is going up in the New York City subway system. http://online.wsj.com/article/APcbba7e803186455686518b62a926d66f.html

 

"A conservative blogger who once headed a campaign against an Islamic center near the Sept. 11 terror attack site won a court order to post the ad in 10 subway stations on Monday. It reads, "In any war between the civilized man and the savage, support the civilized man. Support Israel. Defeat Jihad."

 

Does she have a 1st amendment right to run this ad? Evidently yes, according to a judge. My question is, what's the motive? Will this ad help or hurt the antagonism that exists over religious differences in the Middle East and around the world? I can't imagine any scenario where this ad can have a positive impact on a bad situation.

jeffreycarr
jeffreycarr 5pts

Great to see that the moment these subway posters went up, they were defaced with "RACIST" stickers! http://gawker.com/5946310/anti+islam-nyc-subway-ads-immediately-covered-with-racist-stickers-because-they-are-racist?utm_campaign=socialflow_gawker_twitter&utm_source=gawker_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow

bkgreenfeet
bkgreenfeet 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @jeffreycarr Islam is a race? And it is quite telling that an ad that mentions neither muslims or islam is targeted as "racist" because it merely speaks of the battle between the civilized man and the savage. 

Wiggy111
Wiggy111 5pts

 @bkgreenfeet  Get out your barf bag before reading this:

 

http://hotair.com/archives/2012/10/25/father-of-seal-killed-in-benghazi-hillary-told-me-we-will-make-sure-that-the-person-who-made-that-film-is-arrested-and-prosecuted/

IronMike76
IronMike76 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @jeffreycarr "Hate speech." 

 

Thought police.

 

Slippery slope.

shooten
shooten 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @jeffreycarr Welcome Jeffery.  I believe that if that ad referenced any religion but islam, it would not have seen the inside of a courtroom.  

jeffreycarr
jeffreycarr 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @shooten Seriously? You think that if that ad called Jews or Christians "savages", it'd get a pass? LOL!

IronMike76
IronMike76 5pts

Yep. Pretty much.

shooten
shooten 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @jeffreycarr I think it would get thrown out of court.  Fast.  Savages is a low bar for first ammendment rights.

Icegator
Icegator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

I found this article about a planned viewing of the movie "Innocence of Muslims" in Toronto;

 

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2012/09/14/20200506.html

 

And 1 quote I found interesting;

 

"....Snippets from other movies that are offensive to Christians and Hindus will  also be shown, Banerjee said.

 

“In Canada, we have tolerance and diversity and they (Muslims) are simply  going to have to tolerate diverse viewpoints and opinions without rioting,” he  said, adding that he is not concerned about a backlash. "

jeffreycarr
jeffreycarr 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 6 Like

Wow, I see I need to contribute more content to Jack and Brandon to balance SOFREP's more right-wing writers! This was an amazingly partisan, mis-representation of those of us who found "Innocence of Muslims" an inflammatory hate-fest piece of shit. And guess what, BK? I can say that without the faintest glimmer of an intention to "hurt the First Amendment". The courts have made it clear that the right of free speech has limits. Hate speech hasn't yet been found to be in violation of that right but it's teetering on the edge with past decisions being made on both sides of the issue. This film was so offensive that the filmmaker, an Egyptian Copt Christian and convicted felon, lied to his actors about what the film was about and changed the name of the lead actor until post-production. That's the behavior of a criminal creating a hate film, not someone producing a legitimate movie.

 

When we all say that free speech isn't free, it doesn't just don't mean that it costs the lives of those who die for our freedoms. It also means that there are consequences to the words that we say or put to paper or celluloid, and that we bear responsibility for those consequences. 

 

Have you noticed how so many of the people who are quick to celebrate the right of the shit bag to make this film can't bear having their own religion or political affiliation mocked? In order to demonstrate that little fact, I ran my own test. I posted the following comment to my Twitter followers "Imagine the reaction of the Tea Baggers to an Islamic film portraying Jesus as a drunk pedophile pissing on a pile of bibles." You wouldn't believe how many so-called "Christians" and members of the Tea Party were furious over that tweet. Lots of folks can dish it out but can't take it. I guarantee that you'll see some of that right here on SOFREP once this gets posted. Just because we have the right to say what we want (within limits) doesn't mean that we should. I could walk into a SEAL bar in Coronado and say what a bunch of pussies Navy SEALs are and be within my rights as an American to do so. A lot of good the First Amendment would do me when I left that bar in a stretcher or a body bag. 

SEAN SPOONTS
SEAN SPOONTS 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

@jeffreycarr I don't think it really matters if people who defend the right of the film maker to release an insulting film also get upset when someone mocks their own religious beliefs as you did it. I know you think it's some huge point, but it really isn't. A person who defends a right to offensive speech does not automatically surrender the right to be offended by speech directed at them. The proper response to this ridiculous anti-muslim film is to point out its ridiculous, shallow, ignorant and cartoonish portrayal of Islam, which is just as ridiculous, shallow, ignorant and cartoonish as Hollywood's typical portrayal of Christians and Jews. I think the "Innocence of Muslims" was intended to influence the same kind of dimwitted bigots that Hollywood is trying to reach with its anti-Christian and anti-Jewish portrayals in movies and television shows. The antidote to offensive expressions of free speech is free speech in rebuttal, not the calls for prior restraint that you seem to be advocating.

hjw1dr
hjw1dr 5pts

 @jeffreycarr Wow. Interesting comments, and thought provoking too. (Both Jeffreycarr and BK)

I agree that,  "just because we have the right to say what we want (within limits) doesn't mean we should," is true ... (within limits).  But what if what you say is insulting, but basically true?(Now.. before you jump to conclusions-- I'm not saying the video was in anyway true or a tasteful way to convey a truth)

 

But if you speak a truth---for example, that there are some people (Islamic Fundamentalists) who wish to impose a totalitarian regime in the Middle East (if not the world), and who advocate for the destruction of Western way of life (and values). And what if what you say involves criticism of Islam, and how fanatics use that religion to destroy?  And what if, by saying it ,you happen to offend some Muslims --  does that mean you should not say it? 

 

Sometimes speaking the truth provokes people. For example, speaking about the truth of racism in 1950-60s American South provoked a lot of riots and protests. Should people have stopped speaking out about segregation because it caused racial conflict? Of course not. 

 

So what do we have here? In the Middle East there are protesters who shout hate, "Death to America"  and advocate violence, "Kill all Jews."  Yet, they have the gall to accuse the West of intolerance and hatred of Islam (using the video as trigger). Does anyone see the hypocrisy displayed there?  Seems like tolerance is going only one direction there...

 

To me, the larger question is this: what are the larger goals of these violent protests? 

Is it a demand that the West never criticize Islam? Why?

And if the West concedes, what would be the outcome for the West ---especially when dealing with the propaganda conveyed to the minds and hearts in the larger context of this war?

 

Just sayin--

 

jeffreycarr
jeffreycarr 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @hjw1dr There's no government conspiracy around Islam. Just don't throw a match into a pool of gasoline. The ME is, metaphorically speaking, on fire. Why inflame it? No one wins, you give yet another excuse to Muslim extremists to radicalize more people, and people get killed. Lose - lose.

jrexilius
jrexilius moderator 5pts

 @bkgreenfeet  And no one would be calling for you to be jailed if you did.

bkgreenfeet
bkgreenfeet 5pts

Again, it DOESN"T MATTER! It is still constitutionally protected speech! How are you not understanding that?

 

Just because you think it's mean does not make it unconstitutional.  Jeez, man. 

 

I can make a movie claiming Jesus had ten wives, banged little girls on the side, and liked to snort cocaine if I wanted to. 

jeffreycarr
jeffreycarr 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @hjw1dr You think that the filmmakers behind Innocence of Muslims was speaking up for "what is right and true"? That it portrayed "honest truth"? Because that's what this thread is about.

hjw1dr
hjw1dr 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @jeffreycarr  Hmm...I'm not referring to a govt conspiracy (I'm confused where you drew that conclusion). I'm referring to having courage to speak up for what is right (and true) despite potential conflict.  If you cannot stand up for the honest truth (and by speaking effect change), then what is the point of free speech? 

 

It is a truism that change comes with conflict.  But to avoid conflict generally means you avoid change... and a society that does not accept change becomes rigid and does not adapt. And if you fail to adapt...well... you die.

JHR
JHR 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @jeffreycarrThis is a crude and elementary train of thought, but one that comes to mind. There is an old saying, "never speak ill of the dead". When we break that down, it can be applied to many instances. Saying something  that is deliberately inflammatory, is not the same thing as free speech and I would venture to say our founding fathers knew this. Hate Speech, as I have stated before, may become a legal argument in the future.

 

Another aspect, inflammatory speech comes from a place of a desire to sucker-punch or disturb   aimed at a person or group. When I hear such words, freedom of speech does not come to mind, Bullying, malevolence,  Obfuscation  and  obstreperous come to mind. Selfish behaviors based on the inability to determine long range outcomes combined with lack of simple decent or tolerant behavior, seems present.

 

WE can have freedon of speech and morals at the same time. WE get to decide when and how and where to use our free speech. I inplore everyone to take a look at moivation behind such :free speech: that incites hatred or riot.

 

jrexilius
jrexilius moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @JHR  @jeffreycarr  I am really struggling with how people can try and make a case for a "special type of speech".  People aren't responsible for their own emotional reactions?  It's OK if someone says something hateful to break any law I see fit?

 

To keep things simple, hows about this old saying:

 

"stick and stones can break my bones but names can't hurt me"

 

Society is failing kindergarten 101?

 

JHR
JHR 5pts

 @Icegator  Drugs aren't my thing. But Marionberry is UNREAL. The homemade jam has something going for it. I gave some to a buddy when we had a long night at work and he preceeded to tell the entire crew somethings that were....ummm..TMI. We decided marionberry in high dosage was like sodium pentathol, truth serum. You feel so good/high?, you spill the beans. I think its just found in Oregon?

 

Icegator
Icegator 5pts

 @JHR

 Lol, please excuse my ignorance, I looked it up and LMAO. I didn't know there was such a thing as a "Marionberry", we just call those blackberries down here. I thought you were eating a muffin named after the D.C. mayor "Marion Barry" who was busted for smoking crack back in the 90's. :)

JHR
JHR 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Icegator I wolfed down TWO with lotsa fresh marionberry jam, I was so intent on Jeffreys talk. I normally can only handle 1/2 of one.. Let me tell you, the sugar content was through the roof. Anyone that has to go in a white panel van for recon, forget junk food, take marionberry jam. That stuff will keep u going....and goin...and goin. lol

 

jrexilius
jrexilius moderator 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @jeffreycarr I do understand the issue and your framing is the problem. "falls on the government to do it because someone has to"

 

Free speech and manners have to be regulated by the government..  Are you listening to yourself?

 

Comparing slavery to free speech is rather disingenuous and almost ironic. 

 

Seriously man, you have been living in the beltway too long. 

 

If you really believe government regulation of personal freedoms is the solution to global unrest then you have given up.

Icegator
Icegator 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @JHR  Lol, Marionberry muffins? Is that akin to pot brownies but with crack?

 

JHR
JHR 5pts

 @jeffreycarr  I just looked at your bio. Do you know James Adams?

 

JHR
JHR 5pts

 @jeffreycarr  It has been a pleasure sir, an absolute pleasure. I downed not one BUT TWO Marionberry muffins reading your great words! Blessings, JHR

 

JHR
JHR 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @jrexilius  @jeffreycarr  @StormRIf our government did that, it would impinge on our 1st amendment. This current situation at hand is explosive. I think it is an individuals choice whether to inflame or show  respect through words and actions. Americans are better than being the neighborhood bully. I've had neighbors in urban areas, I carry their groceries no matter what their belief systems. When someone needs help, we give it. If someone tries to harm us, an iron fist come down. But to calm a situation is one of the key elements in humanity and warfare. Stay calm, do not incite or fight unless that is the only option. If we show respect and remain calm, we show we are true americans. But god help anyone who attacks us.

 

jeffreycarr
jeffreycarr 5pts

 @bkgreenfeet  Do you understand that free speech is regulated right now? That it has been since before you were born? 

 

Honestly, don't bother answering that. I'm too old and have too little patience to continue trying to explain what you missed in 6th grade social studies class. I'm out.

bkgreenfeet
bkgreenfeet 5pts

 @jeffreycarr  @jrexilius  So we only have freedom of speech because out benevolent government? Conditional right? What the heck does that mean? Conditioned upon what? You keep saying that you do not want to infringe upon someone's constitutional rights, and yet you call upon the government to intervene if people aren't nice enough?

 

I would rather everyone on the planet walk about hurling slurs at each other than have the government enforcing speech. After all, once they regulate saying mean things to others, what's next? Mean things about the president? Congress? Valid criticism?

 

 

jeffreycarr
jeffreycarr 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @jrexilius Then you don't understand the issue at hand, at least not as I've framed it. My point has been that individuals should think before they speak; that they should weigh the consequences of how something they put into print could make matters worse instead of better. That they should actually care about making things better in the first place. If people can't do that voluntarily, then it falls on the government to do it because someone has to. The alternative to government forcing people to be civil to each other is that slavery would still exist, women would still be 2nd class citizens, etc. In the final analysis, some government regulation is always required to keep the peace. That's why Freedom of speech is, and always has been in our lifetimes, a CONDITIONAL right.

jrexilius
jrexilius moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @JHR  @jeffreycarr  @StormR I completely agree that part of living in a civil society is having respect and courtesy and am not defending the shitty movie or the ideas in it at all.  But I think the issue at hand is whether or not its the governments job to regulate manners.  I don't think it is. 

JHR
JHR 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @jrexilius  @jeffreycarr@StormR  That is true, but how about having some decorum and a little sensitivity. Would you say something innapropriate to your mother or best friend, knowing it might hurt their feelings, or worse, offend them deeply? I think diplomacy has gone out the window with "respect".

 

 For example, if I knew your wife was killed in a car accident, I would not sit at a dinner table with you and talk about car accidents all night.

 

My son was taught something in 1st grade by an awesome teacher, an Olympian, she said "you may not agree wiith somebodys viewpoint, you may not agree with their ideas-but they are human and deserve your repsect". When we loose sight of respecting others, where does that leave us?

 

You can always tell those that lack respect. They are bullies, mean and can never see both sides if the coin. America was founded in freedom of speech and respect.

 

jeffreycarr
jeffreycarr 5pts

 @JHR All good points. Thanks!

IronMike76
IronMike76 5pts

Truth may have something to do with it.

 

Not all of us are moral relativists.

bkgreenfeet
bkgreenfeet 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

 @jeffreycarr Wow, where to begin. First off, I'm not sure how the first amendment is "partisan" or "right-wing."  I was under the impression that all people who loved liberty were passionate about the constitution and being able to speak their minds without fear of government intervention. Plus, you don't know anything about me, or my politics, for that matter. 

 

Interesting that a movie has to be "legitimate" in your eyes to be considered constitutional. If I decided to make a movie that depicted Mohammed blowing a bunch of donkeys, guess what? It doesn't matter if it is historically accurate, doesn't matter if it is hateful,  it doesn't matter if has crappy production values or I lied to the actors about what it was depicting, it is CLEARLY well within my rights to do so.

 

You say hate speech is "teetering right on the edge, with past decisions being made on both sides of the issue." The first part of that sentence is your opinion, and the second part is basically false. I notice you failed to provide a salient example of a court finding of hate speech being unconstitutional in this country. 

 

Finally, your nonsensical argument about your twitter followers. Oooooohhh, you "posted a comment to your twitter followers." They were furious? How dare they! You mean they reacted to your speech with their own speech? Unbelievable! I doubt they then came to your house and firebombed it. I doubt the white house called you pleading to remove the tweet. I doubt that many figures in the media, university, and government called for you to be PUT IN JAIL.  Do you see the difference? 

 

Again, with your absurd SEAL analogy: The point is that the government wouldn't take you away and put you in jail for calling them pussies.  And the SEALS would go to jail. Do you think they would be protected by saying that you provoked them? No, they would not be.

 

It is obvious that you fail to understand the meaning of the first amendment. It is there to protect the individual from government tyranny. That means we all have to put up with people saying mean and nasty things, sometimes about things we may care deeply about. And that is the true meaning of someone who respects our remarkable constitution: It is there not only to protect the speech we love, but that which we hate. 

 

It is quite telling that you tagged me with the label "right-winger," merely for supporting the first amendment. Am I to then infer that left-wingers do not support the first amendment? My very left-wing friends would be surprised to hear that. 

 

It is truly depressing knowing that "citizens" like you exist, who are so quick to cast aside their precious constitutional rights because some people say and do mean things. Grow the fuck up and be a man about it, pussy. (I guess that last part was hate speech.)

jrexilius
jrexilius moderator 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @bkgreenfeet  @jeffreycarr very well written again brother.

 

Icegator
Icegator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @bkgreenfeet  @jeffreycarr

 

Another instance of the 1st amendment being abused is freedom of the press. The media can spin and slander the hell of someone and sure, you have recourse, but you'll be tied up in legal disputes for a while.

 

All rights have limits, but it seems the envelope keeps getting pushed way further than our Forefathers ever expected. To some degree, limits need to be in place because people will try and exploit what isn't defined.

 

Hell, even with rights we support overwhelmingly, for instance, the right to bear arms. Safe to say most here are big 2nd amendment supporters as I am, but I don't wanna see a stinger missile hung over my neighbors fireplace! However, I do want the right to own a high capacity mag. and an AR-15. And there's the rub, it's hard to define "reasonable" now a days.

 

 

These limits were once where common sense and tact said it was. The 4th amendment has the word "unreasonable" in regard to search and seizure, perhaps the other amendments in the Bill should have been prefaced with "reasonable", but even that is subjective.  

 

Now I personally find the "Innocence of Muslims" video to be idiotic and can plainly see it being offensive to Muslims, but I see it as in the realm of the 1st amendment by TODAY'S STANDARDS.

The video is crap, but so is most films coming out of hollywood these days. And I personally don't see people (or at least the consensus) "quick to celebrate the right", but rather conceding the fact that it is a right.

 

And btw, Mr.Carr, your twitter example has already been done, called art in New York galleries. And as for movies offensive to Christians, how about "The Last Temptation of Christ" and many others? Already done as well.

Icegator
Icegator 5pts

 @jrexilius

So like a Libertarian, I can dig it, I have several Libertarian friends and I respect their views. They see things black and white, but I see a shit load of grey, and that grey area takes alot of time and patience to sift through.

 

It can be a daunting task, but the way I see it, our forefathers took on that task to frame the bill, just look at the correspondence that occurred before it's final draft. Even then, it wasn't completely fair to many which has since been rectified.

 

Now on the other hand, we need to be careful as not to OVER analyze either. We need to go with what's actually IN the bill and is fair, and not include definitions/ideas that didn't make it, for instance "separation of church and state". That has taken on and ENTIRELY different meaning and often the correspondence (and a tiny portion at that) is used to define the meaning instead of the ACTUAL law as it is written.

 

I  never saw the ambiguity some in the supreme court did, they act like it's rocket surgery!

jrexilius
jrexilius moderator 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Icegator  "grey area takes alot of time and patience to sift through".. roger that.  

jrexilius
jrexilius moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Icegator  @bkgreenfeet  @jeffreycarr  well reasoned response ice.  Yes I do see the friction present in determining "reasonable" in a lot of the freedoms and responsibilities articulated by the Constitution. 

 

I freely admit that my bias is to be as liberal as possible in those determinations.  Liberal in the true sense of the word meaning freedom-loving, not Liberal in the contemporary domestic political sense meaning government-regulation-loving.

 

engelbrad
engelbrad 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Icegator

 LOL... getting slow tonight!

Icegator
Icegator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @engelbrad

 Damn and no, but worth a shot.

engelbrad
engelbrad 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Icegator

 No and No I would not. Would you?

Icegator
Icegator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

@engelbrad  I have two, do you have the winning numbers for Lotto? Will you share them? :)

 

 

engelbrad
engelbrad 5pts

 @Icegator  @bkgreenfeet  @jeffreycarr

 Good statements Ice... Did you have any questions?

Icegator
Icegator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @bkgreenfeet  @jeffreycarr

 Wow, great stuff y'all! I wouldn't mind seeing a head-to-head article by the 2 of you like a "point, counter-point" piece. (not SNL style,lol)

 

engelbrad
engelbrad 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Icegator  @bkgreenfeet  @jeffreycarr

 That's a great idea Ice.... Im in!

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 7 Like

 @bkgreenfeet  BK man you PJs are life savers, I didnt realize you guys had tempers, ever  ; ) Its usually us ground pounders slinging the shit.....

 

HugeFan
HugeFan moderator 5pts

 @bkgreenfeet Okay, fair.

bkgreenfeet
bkgreenfeet 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @HugeFan No, he didn't. Go back to the original post. Not only did he accuse me of being "partisan" and "right-wing," he believes that what he considers "hate speech" should be banned. That is the problem I have.  Then, as proof, he offers up a paper that talks about child porn and obscenity, neither of which has to do with "hate speech." If you don't care for my tone, well... I get testy when grown men desire to succumb to the wishes of the mob 5000 miles away and dismiss our rights, which have been bought with hundreds of thousands of american lives over the centuries.

HugeFan
HugeFan moderator 5pts

 @bkgreenfeet Removing rights has never been argued here, he was simply trying to clarify the position that freedom of speech does in fact have restrictions. He even gave case law to provide examples. That has gone overlooked by the majority here. Is Jeff biased? Clearly. So am I and so are you, nothing here gets put up for a vote by Congress or the Senate. What's the point in getting nasty about it?

bkgreenfeet
bkgreenfeet 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

 @ArcticWarrior Yeah, people calling upon the State to remove our freedoms kinda gets me going.

jeffreycarr
jeffreycarr 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @bkgreenfeet The 1st Amendment isn't partisan. Your post was. Your references to "supposedly liberal celebrities", negative remarks about the White House and SecState, etc. Seriously, dude. Not to mention your outraged "my best friends are liberals" comment. That was priceless.

 

 Regarding hate speech and the courts, this link has examples on both sides of the issue: http://civilliberty.about.com/od/freespeech/tp/Hate-Speech-Cases.htm

And this is a CRS report on Exceptions to the First Amendment: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/95-815.pdf

 

But the best part of your reply is your last paragraph. Congratulations on making my point so well about the lack of tolerance exhibited by people who claim to be advocates of the First Amendment. 

jrexilius
jrexilius moderator 5pts

 @HugeFan  @jrexilius  @jeffreycarr Agreed that there are people who don't really support free speech on either side of the aisle.  In recent decades I've seen more liberals turn their back on free speech (one of their more traditional platform items that I agree with) in favor of political correctness.  It is not endemic to all liberals but it is a shame to see more of it in recent decades.

 

HugeFan
HugeFan moderator 5pts

@jrexilius @jeffreycarr "free as long as long as it fits our world view..." Can just as easily be said of conservatives. I disagree with the latter part of your post because that hasn't been my experience. I don't feel that because the media interviewed some left wing talking heads that it reflects the views of liberals all over the country, just like I don't base my opinions of the right on anything that Glenn Beck or Bill O'Reilly says. I think that it's best to realize that when considering the argument/counterpoint one's own views that the person presenting their view has based that on some form of experience. Like you, clearly your experience with liberal folks has been different than mine and our perceptions of our experiences clearly make the difference. Follow?

jrexilius
jrexilius moderator 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @HugeFan  @jrexilius  @jeffreycarr  Like I said I was pointing out that the article was not partisan and jcarr tried to make it so.  In fact ACLU and  free speech advocacy is more often associated with the liberal side.  Admittedly in recent decades, Liberal free speech advocacy more often reflects views more like jcarr, "free as long as it fits our world view and doesn't offend the right people".

HugeFan
HugeFan moderator 5pts

 @jrexilius  @jeffreycarr As many have come in with their conservative bias but because the majority here obviously agree with the conservative bias, that's okay? C'mon jrex! :-)

jrexilius
jrexilius moderator 5pts

 @jeffreycarr  @jrexilius Yeah, totally.  I read some of the stuff you write and I don't comprehend many things about it.  Must be a critical thinking flaw somewhere.

jeffreycarr
jeffreycarr 5pts

 @jrexilius "scrap the constitution" - I see reading comprehension isn't your strong suit. 

shooten
shooten 5pts

 @jrexilius  Great question.  I think that's the reason for the majority of Europe's response to this as well.  Of course they have a much bigger problem than we do in that regard.  

jrexilius
jrexilius moderator 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @jeffreycarr  Indeed.  I have picked up on what you've been putting down.  I just disagree with your world view at a pretty basic level. 

 

I'd just like to point out that you came into it with a liberal bias and your opinion doesn't make the truth of the article partisan just because you disagree.

 

So your solution for 1.6bil muslims is to scrap our Constitution?

 

Is it that you don't really believe in it or that you fear 1.6 bil muslims enough to do whatever they want?

 

jeffreycarr
jeffreycarr 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @jrexilius  Good assessment there, Bucko. You really got the gist of what I've repeated about a dozen times by now. 

 

And good luck "dealing" with 1.6 Billion Muslims. You go and teach them how to be "civil" by mocking their religion. 

jrexilius
jrexilius moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @jeffreycarr  @bkgreenfeet  So if a republican said the sky was blue you'd get pissy that it was a partisan smear campaign against the sky?

 

People get killed every day over a lot of things, and the solution is not to inhibit free speech but deal with the people that can't operate in a free civil society.

 

jeffreycarr
jeffreycarr 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @bkgreenfeet The argument that you're making is word for word the Republican party line surrounding this video - so yes, it's partisan. Free speech is limited speech. Do you get that part, at least? 

 

Your dismissal of a CRS report tells me that you didn't read it because it's filled with case law, but not reading it is your loss, not mine.

 

People are getting hurt and killed every day because of hate speech: hatred of gays, hatred of Muslims, hatred of Christians, hatred of Jews, hatred of Blacks, hatred of women, hatred of cops, etc. Films like this one do nothing but increase violence. My position, for the umpteenth time, is NOT to take away anyone's 1st Amendment rights. It's to encourage people to THINK BEFORE THEY SPEAK so as not to cause more harm, which is exactly the rationale used in the limitations that currently exist on free speech. 

 

 

bkgreenfeet
bkgreenfeet 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

 @jeffreycarr My reference to "supposedly liberal celebrities" was relevant in several ways. One, they are self-described liberals. Traditionally, liberalism meant more open-minded and tolerant. As in, more speech, not less. And "liberal" is not a political party, so my referencing it cannot be described as "partisan." Again, you know nothing about me, or you would know from some previous writings how much I have hammered Bush, Rove, and many, many other republicans over the years.  Criticizing the president and secretary of state is not partisan; indeed, I feel it is my DUTY as a citizen. I will never stop criticizing politicians, regardless of what party they belong to. As if I give a shit about party politics.

 

The links you provided? Every single example in the first one showed cases that were OVERTURNED because they violated the defendants 1st amendment rights! So you buttressed my arguments for me.

 

And the second link? Merely a report to congress, not Supreme court case law. And I fail to see how child pornography is in any way similar to making movies mocking religion. Children are being physically abused; hardly the same thing.

 

And as for my last paragraph... you just don't understand this part, do you? I am ALLOWED by law to be an intolerant asshole, call people names, make fun of them.  As you are towards me. (Listen carefully now): That does NOT mean I want the police to come and arrest you!  Can you see the difference? The first amendment protects us from the government coming to put us in jail; it does not protect us from persons hurling slurs at us. I really am at a loss to try and put this any more plainly. 

 

I would ask you, Jeffrey: Suppose the government decides to ban "hate speech." Who decides what is hateful? You? People who think like you? Remember the obscenity cases? Who decided what was obscene? 

 

Again, it is truly depressing to think that you are so willing to get rid of 1st amendment rights, because people say mean things. Didn't you ever consider that the best answer to offensive speech is more speech? Or should everybody just shut up because you said so?

 

Jaycel Adkins
Jaycel Adkins 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

Name calling on the internet is pretty amusing, but not very classy, fellas. Sure there is more to BOTH of y'all than some truncated posts on the interwebs.

engelbrad
engelbrad 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @bkgreenfeet  @jeffreycarr

 bk... This is a SOFREP discussion. Be respectful. You have good points, don't fog them in angry discussion!

 

engelbrad
engelbrad 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @jeffreycarr

I swore the first time I read jeffreycarr's comments that I would never contest him because he is a well spoken intellect. I feel like I just walked into the SEAL bar in Coronado with stupid in my mouth....Here goes...

 

So Jeffrey... Are you saying that First Amend is common sense instead of legal right?

 

PS... Your tweet experiment was funny and I pissed my pants reading that gem.

jeffreycarr
jeffreycarr 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 6 Like

 @engelbrad I'm saying that common sense is often a rare commodity, and that just because we CAN say something, doesn't mean that we SHOULD say something. 

SEAN SPOONTS
SEAN SPOONTS 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

@ArcticWarrior @bkgreenfeet @jeffreycarr @ajgamble When you look into the historical background of the Alien and Sedition Act of 1798 you will find that we were about to go to War with France, while a sizable number of French Nationals lived in the United States and there were concerns about a counter Revolution of the kind that was still going on in France. The Reign of Terror had only ended a couple of years earlier. Adams and the Federalists were concerned that the war with France would weaken America internally and make it possible for the French in this country to spark a second Revolution that would end in oceans of blood and chaos as the failed French Revolution had. When you study the French Revolution in some depth you quickly come to realise that it's the well spring of all the communist, anarchist and socialist miseries that have been inflicted on the world since. I think Adams was justified given the circumstances.

IronMike76
IronMike76 5pts

The world is plum full of dumbasses. As such, they are inclined to indict themselves - if given the time.

HugeFan
HugeFan moderator 5pts

 @ajgamble Don't try to make it an argument. Every step of the way Jeff has illustrated his points succinctly. He made no such inference as to your ability to read or your ability to comprehend. I might though...

StormR
StormR 5pts

 @ArcticWarrior  It is unfortunate that so many people are unable to live up to the ideal of debate and dialog afforded to us by the constitution.  I'm going on the down low, AW, for a time until balance returns here.  Wish you well on this change of seasons day.  Hoi

shooten
shooten 5pts

 @engelbrad  @ArcticWarrior I would love to have a voice in how our ROE is constructed.  Except for writing to your congressman or voting for the CIC, what other recourse do we have?  I keep reading on this site that things changed in 2009 and it got very difficult for our side from getting their job done.  

shooten
shooten 5pts

 @ArcticWarrior  @engelbrad  @jeffreycarr You can yell fire in a crowded movie theater.  If there is a fire.

Recon6
Recon6 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @LauraKinCA  @StormR  @ArcticWarrior  @engelbrad Laura, "Only Thing Worth Dying For' is another excellent read.  For sure on your list....6

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @bkgreenfeet  @jeffreycarr  @ajgamble

 Take into consideration that the very same Founders had the Alien and Sedition Acts of 1798, which limited free speech, #4made it a crime to publish "false, scandalous, and malicious writing" against the government or certain officials, 10 people of the 25 arrested were convicted . We were only on President #2! This debates been going on nearly as long as the Country and Constitution, and rightly so. But its up to us to see that being dragged off to jail doesnt happen again, but every now and then a Westboro type situation will pop up, just to test us, bet on it.

 

jeffreycarr
jeffreycarr 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @engelbrad  Thanks. Enjoy yours as well.

engelbrad
engelbrad 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @jeffreycarr  @ArcticWarrior

 Hey Jeffrey... Wanted to let you know that while we may have political differences... I really appreciate your thought and opinion. I always pay attention to your posts. Have a great weekend!

jeffreycarr
jeffreycarr 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @ArcticWarrior   Exactly right. 

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @StormR

 Blehm does a good turn of phrase and make you feel the emotions. Got teary in Fearless at the end, and I knew what the end was. Didn't stop it.

StormR
StormR 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @LauraKinCA  The book opened my eyes to so many things.  It connected the dots for me about the 'why' of being in Iraq.  It helped me to understand the roles of the different groups in A-Stan and in particular how Karzai ended up in power.  And all of these from the eyes and experience of the Green Berets on the ground.  It was this book that really helped me understand that much much more than simply physical prowess was involved in being SOF.  The intelligence, responsibilities, knowledge, experience, education demanded to do what they do is unbelievable.  I warn you, though...there is great tragedy that happens that is heart-breaking. 

StormR
StormR 5pts

 @LauraKinCA  @engelbrad  @ArcticWarrior  It was many, many Tweets for many, many days...he had a whole bunch of rage going on and it showed - he knew it showed and didn't care.  It felt like I was watching a melt-down and that is why it was distressing - his rage overwhelmed his message.

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts

 @StormR  @ArcticWarrior  @engelbrad

 No to Blem's other book. Looked (at the cover only so far). Haven't investigated it. Now with your recommendation, I will have to look into it.

bkgreenfeet
bkgreenfeet 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @jeffreycarr  @ajgamble  So it makes you an reckless asshole. Doesn't mean you should be dragged off to jail/re-education camp by the man.

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @StormR  @engelbrad  @ArcticWarrior

 Missed Parnell's Twitter re OPSEC video. Not knowing what he said, I can only surmise that if it struck a nerve with him that it can be hard to been low key in your language when you feel very strongly. True for most situations I think.

StormR
StormR 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @LauraKinCA  @ArcticWarrior  @engelbrad  Laura, have you read "The Only Thing Worth Dying For" by Eric Blem.  It is my top 5 favorite books (and the first 3 on the list were written by Tolkein).

StormR
StormR 5pts

 @LauraKinCA  @engelbrad  @ArcticWarrior I loved the book and respect Sean Parnell's service and commitment.  However, I found his vocal and active support of the OPSEC video on Twitter rather unpleasant.  Once again it was the manner not the message that was distressing.  Sometimes great anger masks the message instead of spreading it . 

ajgamble
ajgamble 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @engelbrad  @jeffreycarr  (Brake lights on) It looked like you did and I had my dander up. Brakes pumped, hate machine is slowing down.

ajgamble
ajgamble 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @bkgreenfeet I know you didn't reference any at all and I only referred to your response to comments on the point we both made about jeff's reference to "right wing" work on SOFREP. I am in 100% agreement on what you've said there.

engelbrad
engelbrad 5pts

 @ajgamble  @jeffreycarr

 Pump your breaks aj! I never said you were illiterate or that I had to read anything to you. I was also not attempting to make a joke.

bkgreenfeet
bkgreenfeet 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @jeffreycarr  @ajgamble No where in my article did I reference party politics or political ideology, save to point out the hypocrisy of self-described "liberals" calling for the state to silence and punish someone because of their speech. I wrote this article because of my passion for our hard-fought, unique-in-the-world constitutional rights.

StormR
StormR 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @notdrakebell  @engelbrad  @jeffreycarr ROFL, AW - I was born in a quagmire. 

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @engelbrad  @ArcticWarrior

 Brad, you and me both on the ever expanding reading list. Haven't gotten to Sniper Elite yet, Fearless was very good. Listening to Service now (already read that one too). And don't foget some of the fiction these guys are laying out there. Good stuff!!

StormR
StormR 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @LauraKinCA  @ArcticWarrior  @notdrakebell  @engelbrad  @jeffreycarr  Laura, here's where it gets sticky.  The upper age limit is 17..at 17 years old, my son was in college and had a Driver's License.  So what would be an appropriate age?  And even sticker, a child that cannot access a webpage on breast-feeding can just walk to a shelf and check out the book.  What makes it worse is that the really hard core porn sites (and there are hundreds of them) continually change their 'address' so it's impossible to filter them all out, all the time.  The really dangerous thing about it is that it creates a false sense of security for parents that their children will be safe on the Internet - this is true for the filtering systems they buy for home.  Truthfully, the most dangerous place a child can go is to a social networking site and those are not filtered out.   My library spends a considerable amount of time and effort in educating parents to closely monitor their child's Internet activities.  The Children's Internet Protection Act is little more than a 'feel good' measure.

engelbrad
engelbrad 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @LauraKinCA  @ArcticWarrior

 I hear you Laura. You recommended that book to me and I'm on it next week. Finishing Sniper Elite and pounding Fearless after that. Reading list has gone through the roof since SOFREP!!!

ajgamble
ajgamble 5pts

 @jeffreycarr  Well I guess that I wasn't the only one to take that meaning out of your comments, i.e. Bk's response and others. @engelbrad  I take it you were attempting to make a joke that I am illiterate and you had to read it to me? That's so funny.

 

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @jeffreycarr  @ajgamble

 Semantics. Both BK and Jeffrey were right. The 1st is precious and needs to be defended, and at the same time just because you can say it doesnt mean you should.

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @engelbrad  @ArcticWarrior

 Brad, talking to AW about Outlaw Platoon, Sean Parnell has started what he calls America First movement trying to reach all Americans to bring them back together. He is putting a very positive image out there as a former Army officer.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @LauraKinCA  @engelbrad

 Its a great book that got the emotion and feel right. All that was missing was the smells and sounds, Parnell did good.

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @engelbrad

 Now AW, don't set me off on reality tv and celebrity nonsense!

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @engelbrad

 AW - speaking of great books, if you haven't read it yet, I highly recommend Outlaw Platoon. It really highlights why I am so impressed with our enlisted soldiers.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @engelbrad  @LauraKinCA

 Kim K's tits on Twitter or Haj wearing American Uniforms blow up 6 Harriers on a supposed secure Base. Which one of those got more hits?

jeffreycarr
jeffreycarr 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @ajgamble That was an assumption on your part, and an incorrect one. 

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @LauraKinCA  @engelbrad

 The American Soldier is the best, as is the NCO Corp

ajgamble
ajgamble 5pts

 @jeffreycarr Yes I did read what you wrote.. You said you needed to balance out the right-wing slant  of content on SOFREP and the article in particular. So while BK was defending the 1st Amendment, you implied intentionally or unintentionally that that is a right-wing stance.

engelbrad
engelbrad 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @LauraKinCA  @ArcticWarrior

 But how do we get America in to the conversation? I'm telling ya ... people like me (that have not read some great books and found SOFREP) do not have a clue. They don't understand the conversation. It needs to get out there!

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @engelbrad

 AW - what I can't believe sometimes is how few mistakes they do make in the heat of combat. Goes to good training and support from the man next to him on the line.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @LauraKinCA  @engelbrad

 They are and always remember how young they are...even when they make a mistake dont rush to crucify them,,,,,,

engelbrad
engelbrad 5pts

 @jeffreycarr  @ajgamble

 I read that to aj.

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @engelbrad

 AW - I am not surprised anymore about how well our young soldiers deal with the changes in ROE. I have read some great accounts showcasing how well they are trained and handle themselves and their frustrations with some of the ROE. They are impressive!

jeffreycarr
jeffreycarr 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @ajgamble Did you read my post, or did you only read BK's reaction to my post because nowhere did I write that the 1st Amendment is "right-wing". I'm happy to debate the topic but may I ask that you read what I wrote first? Thanks.

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts

 @StormR  @ArcticWarrior  @notdrakebell  @engelbrad  @jeffreycarr

 I think the library's limits are appropriate as it acts somewhat like a parent to keep them from viewing some things without parental supervision and hopefully commentary.

engelbrad
engelbrad 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @StormR  @notdrakebell  @jeffreycarr

 No shit!

ajgamble
ajgamble 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 7 Like

 @jeffreycarr You're right that just because you can doesn't mean you should. But that's why the US is the only country where you have to play by "big boy rules".

 

If supporting the 1st Amendment is "right-wing", than something is already broken. Everytime there is a tragedy there is a knee jerk reaction to legislate the shit out of our rights. Gun-control, free speech, freedom of religion and seperation of church and state, are always pointed out as being "dangerous" after an incident where the people responsible for the violence have no blame or burden of responsibility in the lefty's minds. It's plain ridiculous that we should change our laws bc of one shitty movie.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @engelbrad  @StormR  @notdrakebell  @jeffreycarr

 Man in this Country right now, it sure does seem it. Nobody works together anymore, no room for opinions. Its sad......

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @StormR  @engelbrad  @notdrakebell  @jeffreycarr

 Agreed again. There will always be those whose intent is to incite strong emotion by pushing society's limits. Some do it "in the name of Art", some do it to incite a physical fight. But sometimes out there on the fringe of upsetting people with your presentation of ideas, a better discussion starts. My roundabout point is to keep those avenues open vs. progressive restraint.

engelbrad
engelbrad 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @StormR  @notdrakebell  @jeffreycarr

 Is everything a quagmire to you Arctic???? lol...;)

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @StormR  @notdrakebell  @engelbrad  @jeffreycarr

 Ahhh Children and the Constitution...now your walking into a quagmire....remember the Constitution at one point didnt apply to blacks, Native Americans, Women and non-land owners....tricky biz right there....

StormR
StormR 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @notdrakebell  @engelbrad  @jeffreycarr The Children's Internet Protection Act mandates that in public facilities (meaning schools & libraries) children 17 years old and younger can only have filtered access to the Internet.  It's an interesting approach because it doesn't limit speech - it just limits access to it.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

 @LauraKinCA  @engelbrad

 You would be surprised how good your 20 yr old Soldiers handle it, they are fantastic overall considering the ever changing rules.

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @engelbrad

 Agreed. What little I do know is upsetting enough.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @LauraKinCA  @engelbrad

 Imagine what you havent read....maybe you dont want to know.....

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

 @StormR  @engelbrad  @LauraKinCA  @notdrakebell  @jeffreycarr

 A lot of guys paid for the ticket to allow us to argue, this couldnt happen in Iran. We are lucky we have a Constitution that allows for debate.

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @engelbrad

 AW - don't even get me started on ROE. After reading some of the military bios and about so many of the green on blue incidents recently, that is a very frustrating topic for me.

StormR
StormR 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @engelbrad  @LauraKinCA  @notdrakebell  @jeffreycarr  I've noticed that it is not so much the thought that causes a to-do as it is the manner of the delivery of the thought. 

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

 @engelbrad  @LauraKinCA  @notdrakebell  @jeffreycarr

 All thoughts should be welcome here, well except that guy who referred to American GI's as Nazi's way back in the beginning.....

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

 @engelbrad

 ROE is a sticky quagmire, I guess it has been since Korea. We have not had a "Total" War since WWII, just a collection of "half" wars, thats the complicating priciple.

Infantryman always want off the leash, but now that I think about it maybe thats not always the best course of action in the real world of "half' wars. ( Im half kidding)

Its a better topic to debate then right v. left, Cons v. Lib. Man I dont know about you but I m tired of all that, especially on the workup to a Pres Election its all you hear about.

engelbrad
engelbrad 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @LauraKinCA  @ArcticWarrior  @notdrakebell  @jeffreycarr

 No blasting here Laura,

I appreciate your thoughts!

engelbrad
engelbrad 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @ArcticWarrior

 It is. I hear it from our Warriors but I don't hear a thing from my fellow civies. Everyone has an opinion on our engagement and our intent but when you ask about their opinion on ROE they look confused and uninterested.

LauraKinCA
LauraKinCA 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

 @engelbrad  @ArcticWarrior  @notdrakebell  @jeffreycarr

 At the risk of getting blasted here, I will throw out an example that comes to my mind about the hypocrisy of claiming that video is hate speech that should be prosecuted vs. something hateful and in poor taste that I as a consumer can boycott, costing them revenue. While I hear aggravated voices decry the Iranian vocal position claiming the Holocaust is a myth, I don’t see riots in the streets or our government threatening action because of that position. I think if I were Jewish, Polish, or any of the many other groups that suffered in the Holocaust, I would probably consider that hate speech too, but I wouldn’t advocate prosecution. I would just thank DDE for instructing our soldiers to gather as much evidence as they could to keep history honest about that.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @engelbrad

 A new guy at work just ETSd this past spring. Was in the 1st BCT with the 101st(327th) during his last deployment the ROE he described was hideous. He refrerred to 2003(when he told me he was 15) as the Wild West. Man that is a whole other argument.

engelbrad
engelbrad 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @ArcticWarrior

 On a side note... Don't you wish ROE was getting contested as vigioursouly as 1st amend right now?

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @engelbrad  @notdrakebell  @jeffreycarr

 Yes, exactly. The SCOTUS has even contradicted itself on the same lines over the last 236 years. I cant remember how many times in Court someone throws the Free Speech thing out, down comes the gavel. out go the fines and cuffs are slapped on and off to the hole you go until Judge decides differently. Lawyer cant do a thing about it.

Basically they are both right.

engelbrad
engelbrad 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @notdrakebell  @jeffreycarr

This is the fine line in the sand of 1st amend... is it speech or is it criminal intent? Brandon commented (or told a story) about his interaction with KU on this subject. You could "like" to do something but that does not mean you will (his lawyer's words and I'm paraphrasing).

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @engelbrad

 Remember that the Courts will always view it as did the Govt restrict the content of the speech or merely regulates the time, manner, and place in which the speech is delivered. For example, OWS. Without the proper permits the Courts reaffirm that "Free Speech" is not covered. Public places owned by the Govt are not always forums that allow free speech. Airports and Prison Grounds(outside) are 2 easy examples. Cross burning is another. If you burn a cross to intimidate then its illegal and not covered, as far as Seditious speech look up Charles T. Schenck.

engelbrad
engelbrad 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @ArcticWarrior

 Good point!

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

 @engelbrad 

 Its both then isnt it?

Justice Black said it was absolute, Justice Holmes felt there were obvious restrictions. Speak out of turn in a Courtroom, thats a nice easy lesson Ive seen often

engelbrad
engelbrad 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @jeffreycarr

 If I'm not mistaken that was not limitation on the 1 amend but definition of criminal act by law?

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @notdrakebell  @engelbrad  @jeffreycarr

  allowing an absolute right of free speech would deny others of rights which take precedence, laws against incitement to riot and incitement to violence.  Defamation of character, including libel and slander, is also not protected speech precisely because of the harm done to the target of such speech. Seditious speech also, there are many examples

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @engelbrad  @jeffreycarr

 You cant threaten the President, you can not yell fire in a crowded movie theatre, you can not call in a bomb threat hoax etc.

engelbrad
engelbrad 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @jeffreycarr

 I agree with that statement jeffrey. When have the courts made it clear that the right of free speech has limits?

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