Successful HRT Hostage Rescue in Alabama: SOF Breakdown

 @southernbelle  @ArcticWarrior LOL

 @HugeFan  @ArcticWarrior LOLz poor dog was named Booger. ;) Makes me think of Revenge of the Nerds.

 @HugeFan  @ArcticWarrior http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDdbg_Q-LMI

 @HugeFan

 Next time Jack does a piece on JSOC doing train up work in major cities involving LE, think........

 @AUNITEDPEOPLE  @ArcticWarrior  @HugeFan  @Jaycel Adkins  @StormR And control is all you need to fly one into a jet engine.

 @ArcticWarrior  @dmalert  @HugeFan  @Jaycel Adkins  @StormR (great power = great responsibility) /= government

 @ArcticWarrior  @AUNITEDPEOPLE  @HugeFan  @Jaycel Adkins  @StormR Sure

 @dmalert  @AUNITEDPEOPLE  @HugeFan  @Jaycel Adkins  @StormR

 They have legitimate uses but one can see how they could easily be abused

 @ArcticWarrior  @AUNITEDPEOPLE  @HugeFan  @Jaycel Adkins  @StormR Good for a lot of scientific stuff as well.

 @AUNITEDPEOPLE  @dmalert  @HugeFan  @Jaycel Adkins  @StormR

 I agree too many drones. But for Border interdiction and SAR they are very valuable

 @dmalert  @ArcticWarrior  @HugeFan  @Jaycel Adkins  @StormR Technically, you wouldn't hack the drone, but the control system, so the drones are only secure as the systems that support them. That is the low-tech way.

However, a government backed effort could effect a satellite hack, but highly unlikely. The control system would be much easier to break into.

 @dmalert  @LauraKinCA

 The real granolas are in Jerome.....     ; )

 @LauraKinCA  Sorry just a joke I had with a bud about the granolas in Sedona - no story.

 @ArcticWarrior  @AUNITEDPEOPLE  @HugeFan    @StormR Understood.

 @dmalert  @AUNITEDPEOPLE  @HugeFan  @Jaycel Adkins  @StormR

 I honestly wouldnt know anything about the security or the bandwith available I know the generic flight path's thats about it.

 @ArcticWarrior  @dmalert  @HugeFan  @Jaycel Adkins  @StormR Damn, I hate my fucking slow ass laptop! I can barely keep up with all the postings!

Not to address the art aspect, with I am totally down with as an 'art' photographer... but the cyber security issue is a real danger for sure. I mean, have you all heard about the recent intrusions into some of our national institutions, then the danger is more real these days than ever.

All in all, it's not a good idea, not at all. I know helicopters and satellite imagery can capture quiet a lot, it's still not as good as a cheap, real-time relay of information to, fill in the blank...

The rational for this is already being spewed forth:

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/02/05/death_by_loophole?page=0,0

 @ArcticWarrior  @AUNITEDPEOPLE  @HugeFan  @Jaycel Adkins  @StormR What is the feeling as per nav systems as per when you get a lot in an urban area?

1) security so no hacking

2) general interference.  Is it tied to GPS?  If so what of the LightSquared problem?

 @dmalert  @ArcticWarrior  @AUNITEDPEOPLE  @HugeFan  @Jaycel Adkins  @StormR

 Well, that isn't the story I was hoping for  <stubbs toe dejectedly>

 @LauraKinCA  @ArcticWarrior  @AUNITEDPEOPLE  @HugeFan  @Jaycel Adkins  @StormR I was able to grab onto the red rocks with my hands and pull myself out.  LOL

 @dmalert 

Were did the vortex trip take you??

 @ArcticWarrior  @AUNITEDPEOPLE  @HugeFan  @Jaycel Adkins  @StormR

 @ArcticWarrior  @AUNITEDPEOPLE  @HugeFan  @Jaycel Adkins  @StormR A vortex probably formed under the laundry room in some dude's house in Sedona and reappeared in the middle of nowhere.  I myself was hiking in Sedona one time, fell into a vortex and had a damn hard time getting out.

 @dmalert  @AUNITEDPEOPLE  @HugeFan  @Jaycel Adkins  @StormR

 1- You would be surprised what you can see on regular helo overflights of the corridors

2- You would be surprised at the strange collection of items in the middle of the desert - I saw what turned out to be a washer and drier set set up side by side just like at home, in the middle of nowhere......

 @ArcticWarrior  @AUNITEDPEOPLE  @HugeFan  @Jaycel Adkins  @StormR You know - art and all.

 @ArcticWarrior  @AUNITEDPEOPLE  @HugeFan  @Jaycel Adkins  @StormR Loitering over topless sunbathers strikes me as an acceptable usage.

 @ArcticWarrior  @AUNITEDPEOPLE  @HugeFan  @Jaycel Adkins  @StormR Sure and again legitimate usage - it can just get out of hand.  And with too many of the some LE is going to fly one into a jet - just a matter of time.  Something like 30k authorized by 2015.

Think of hacking into one and flying it into a jet (AQ or whomever).  I hope the security on these "birds" is pretty fucking good.

 @AUNITEDPEOPLE  @dmalert  @HugeFan  @Jaycel Adkins  @StormR

 Keep in mind those collection packages can see a long way, both into MX as well as North of the border area. Im not saying its being used to check out chicks sunbathing topless in Sierra Vista but.......they are very helpful when they are up doing there thing

 @ArcticWarrior  @dmalert  @HugeFan  @Jaycel Adkins  @StormR Seems I countered my own argument when I said they would be good for border control and, yet also said that they shouldn't be in the hands of the Federal Gov... Damn that, logic is a bitch!

 @dmalert  @AUNITEDPEOPLE  @HugeFan  @Jaycel Adkins  @StormR

 I see these all the time...

http://publicintelligence.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/CBP-drones.jpg

 @ArcticWarrior  @AUNITEDPEOPLE  @HugeFan  @Jaycel Adkins  @StormR Coming in greater numbers

@dmalert@HugeFan@Jaycel Adkins@StormR If, and I say IF, they are used by universities and research facilities then I don't have a problem with that, but I don't trust them in the hands of the Federal government, no matter who's in charge... again, the slippery slope comes into play.

 @dmalert  @AUNITEDPEOPLE  @HugeFan  @Jaycel Adkins  @StormR

 Coming? Brother they are here......

 @HugeFan @AUNITEDPEOPLE @StormR @dmalert 

http://www.asctec.de/uav-applications/research/products/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ErEBkj_3PY

New hobby....kinda complicated to get my hands on one, but not impossible..... :|

 @Jaycel Adkins  @dmalert  @HugeFan  @StormR They actually have compact models nowadays :)

http://mashable.com/2013/02/05/uk-mini-drones-afghanistan/

 @HugeFan  @AUNITEDPEOPLE  @Jaycel Adkins  @StormR Disagree - drones are great for environmental usage - bays, oceans, crops, etc.  This is a healthy domestic usage.

 @Jaycel Adkins  @AUNITEDPEOPLE  @HugeFan  @StormR LOL - little quad kit?

 @dmalert  @AUNITEDPEOPLE  @HugeFan  @StormR I'm thinking about buying one actually, but I think my HOA rules and regulations forbids it, go figure!?!

 @AUNITEDPEOPLE  @HugeFan  @Jaycel Adkins  @StormR Things like the superbowl are fine as well, but it's a real slippery slope. 

And do you see great responsibility in DC these days???  Domestic drones are going to be a real problem and they're coming.

@HugeFan@Jaycel Adkins@StormR Oh I do agree about the drones. They are very effective in certain situations, a lot of times keeping our troops out of harms way, but, as they say, with great power comes great responsibility. There is currently a great debate about the use if these drones on US citizens when they are on foreign soil and the arguments from the administration are tenuous at best. But, even the thought of deploying them over the US, unless maybe for border patrol, is completely unacceptable in my opinion.

 @AUNITEDPEOPLE  @Jaycel Adkins  @StormR Look drones offer immense capabilities that are not all sinister but I cannot support the idea of all these unmanned aircraft flying around "monitoring crop development and herd migration", especially when they also happen to be so effective at removing people from the face of the planet.

 @Jaycel Adkins  @HugeFan  @StormR Yeah, no fucking shit. If that ain't Big Brother, then I'm not sure what is!

 @HugeFan  @AUNITEDPEOPLE  @StormR *coughs* don't tell the drones. :P

 @southernbelle  @StormR  @JoeL2000 80% of HRT operators have prior tactical experience. The FBI actively recruits military SOF with an eye on fast-tracking them to HRT through their 'Tactical Recruitment Program.' That said, even those guys have to serve as FBI field agents for 1-2 years before they are allowed to try out.

Related to recent news of women being allowed into combat roles in the military, last I knew women are allowed to try out for HRT, although I believe (and this could be old information), only one did and she didn't make it. However, she ended up working with the team in a support capacity.

 @StormR  @JoeL2000 I wonder if former spec ops guys move to the HRT teams? I could see it for guys who still want action, but want to be closer to their families. Where do they find the guys for the team?

 @HugeFan  @ArcticWarrior  @momengineer 

DOE has their own training facility, as well as using contract personnel for their SRT, SRF, and CAT (think Red Cell/Red Team operations).

 @StormR  @JackMurphyRGR  @ArcticWarrior  @momengineer 

In addition to the HRT, several of the enhanced FBI SWAT teams have deployed overseas to provide security details, that's in addition to units like BORTAC (the Border Patrol's full time national level tactical unit), the DEA FAST (and the guys they had supporting operation Snow Cap, back in the day), the USMS SOG, and other teams from the BP, ATF, CBP, etc. Plus the Coasties have been forward deploying small dets. from their MSRT on anti-piracy missions, and way back when they had their DIAT and IMLET unit running around Central & South American pulling anti-drug ops.

 @LauraKinCA  @StormR  @JackMurphyRGR  @ArcticWarrior  @momengineer IIRC, in Adam Brown's book, he become friends with an FBI agent while in the ME.

 @ArcticWarrior  @momengineer

That reminds me of the pilot episode of The Unit(originally on CBS)several years ago when the first time the Delta type squad is shown in action, they're taking down a couple terrorists who hijacked a US airliner on the tarmac on Midwest American soil. .After they succeed, they're hassled by some bureaucratic pinheads for operating on said territory. The whole PosseComm thing you mentioned momengineer. Eventually, after going through some interrogation song and dance, they're cleared.

Anyway, here's an article I ran across on Yahoo a little while ago. It starts out sounding like an amateurish see-spot-run bit of reporting, but it does get better a few paragraphs in. One interesting tidbit is that they reportedly did some rehearsals on a mockup of that guy's bunker reminescent of T6's OBL raid.

http://news.yahoo.com/military-tactics-arms-helped-rescue-ala-hostage-220319979.html

Ha! When I was a coastie we had a running joke about the elite Coast Guard Sea Donkeys! We were the Swiss army knife of the mil. One moment you were on a lawn mower, the next you were plucking a guy out of the water! Unlike other services, most coasties maintain their own facilities regardless of rate / mos.

 @HugeFan  @StormR Sure but how far can humanity move forward without more compassion for his fellow man.  Meaning we are like children with shotguns.  And I'm not being naive, but our knowledge of energy keeps advancing, yet our compassion does not leading me to believe the weapons get used. And it's gonna get far beyond nukes.

So perhaps this is where the Jesuit was coming from.....

 @HugeFan  I agree HF, the genie is not going back into the bottle, and frankly no one cares about it until North Korea and Iran start rattling their sabers at us.  I understand his concern...it is real.  He and I grew up during the Cold War when people were building bomb shelters in their back yards and kids were doing nuclear bomb drills in schools instead of earthquake drills.   However, time has moved on and as you said, there's no putting the genie back in the bottle.  No one listens to him on it and generally no one cares.  He influences no one.  What I find unbearably sad is that he will not be remembered for the great works that he has accomplished in his life, he will be remembered for the one he didn't. 

 @StormR  Fair enough. I know that you stated that you don't agree with his methods but I will still reiterate my position that despite his deep conviction and faith, it is not ever okay to demonstrate it that way. His position on nuclear weapons also completely ignores the fact that that "Genie" ain't going back in the bottle. With nations like Pakistan and soon, Iran possessing nuclear capability; I feel that it is that much more important to keep them around. This man uses his faith to justify irrationality. I'm also quite sure that he is a sweet man but I don't want a "sweet" man to influence our nation's defense. See where I am coming from?

 @ArcticWarrior  @JackMurphyRGR  @momengineer   "The Military can operate in the US under extra legal activities. "  Time for me to go off-line, I'm getting giddy (or perhaps silly).  I read your statement and said, "ohhhh, EXTRA legal activities....special extra legal activities...and giggled a lot..yes, I giggled - oh groan.  Sigh, I suppose you just had to be here.

 @HugeFan  @JackMurphyRGR  @ArcticWarrior  @momengineer  HF, I've known and worked with Father Bix for about 30 years, and he's a really sweet man.  He's a Jesuit and devoted his life to the poor, and the last 20 years, the homeless.   I don't know the story of where his anti-nuclear weapon stance began, but I do know it was born from what happened in Japan. He's out of jail now.  He wasn't physically strong when he went to jail, and he's very frail now.   I respect him greatly - he walks his talk on all levels.  He's not a kook - he's a man of conviction.  I don't agree or support his anti-nuclear activities, but I will mourn his loss greatly.

 @ArcticWarrior  @StormR  Luckily that would never happen.  Just like the DOJ would never declare drone strikes on US citizens legal.  :)

 @StormR  @JackMurphyRGR  @momengineer

 The Military can operate in the US under extra legal activities.

 @StormR  @JackMurphyRGR  @HugeFan  @ArcticWarrior  @momengineer Right spent and new.  Not advisable to go after the materials either.

 @StormR  @JackMurphyRGR  @ArcticWarrior  @momengineer I think that the FBI has some capabilities that the DoD just doesn't have the resources to provide itself.

 @StormR  @JackMurphyRGR  @ArcticWarrior  @momengineer Yeah, that guy's "cause"(I think he does it mainly for attention) is noble and all but he's part of the reason I have to strap a Federal Police officer to my ass to move around that base. I wish he would quit that non-sense, looks like he'll have plenty of time to figure out a better method.

http://www.ufppc.org/local-news-mainmenu-34/9944-local-news-father-bix-and-4-others-arraigned-as-feds-throw-book-at-bangor-5.html

 @JackMurphyRGR  @HugeFan  @momengineer

 I happened to be at a secondary access gate at a major facilty when a truck made a wrong turn, consequently my lunch turned into a 5 hour event as lock down ensued, with me at the shack with nowhere to go. They reacted pretty quick

 @JackMurphyRGR  @HugeFan  @ArcticWarrior  @momengineer  Not only hippies, but we have a group of Catholic priests and nuns (all 70+ years old) who regularly give Bangor guards heartburn.  Father Bix has served federal time twice for it - he's in his mid-80's now. 

 @StormR  @JackMurphyRGR  @ArcticWarrior  @momengineer Oh well, come on Jack, another article please.

 @StormR  @JackMurphyRGR  @ArcticWarrior  @momengineer

 Trying to remember back to The Red Circle, but if I'm right, BW and the Team guys were in A'stan going through the caves with FBI guys as they had the investigative background to go through the stuff they found.

 @JackMurphyRGR  @HugeFan  @ArcticWarrior  @momengineer  Maybe nuclear weapons don't get moved around much, but nuclear material from the plants get moved around very regularly.  Out by Hanford, the special trains were a regular sight.

 @HugeFan  @ArcticWarrior  @momengineer How about those two hippies that made it to the actual walls of that Uranium facility?  That was embarrassing.  However, I have been told that post-9/11 our nuclear power plants are nothing to fuck with.

 @JackMurphyRGR  @ArcticWarrior  @momengineer Good point Jack and come to think of it, that statement might as well have been a quote from Wasdin's book. He mentions something to the effect that he would not voluntarily attempt to infil a DoE facility after having trained with a set of their snipers back in the 90's. So now you know how current my info is... :-)

 @HugeFan  @ArcticWarrior  @momengineer Eh, I've heard most of them quit the job because it is so boring.  How often does DOE really move a nuclear weapon across the country?

 @ArcticWarrior  @StormR  @momengineer Two words: Chris Costa. Three more words: Coast Guard Veteran.

 @ArcticWarrior  @momengineer Apparently, the DoE have some of the best snipers on the planet.

 @JackMurphyRGR  @ArcticWarrior  @momengineer "I worked with HRT in both Afghanistan and Iraq."  Okay, that confuses things even more for me.  So, to break it on down:  Military can't operate in US , except Coast Guard and National Guard.  However, HRT, Coast Guard and National Guard can serve both in and out of US.   Surprises me that they served with you, Jack...my (limited) understanding is that there is a very small number of them - it seems stretching them very thin.   Although, I'm often surprised at the places that SOF have operated in recent history.  

 @StormR  @ArcticWarrior  @momengineer I worked with HRT in both Afghanistan and Iraq.

 @ArcticWarrior  @momengineer  Today is full of 'new things I learned'.   Didn't realize they deployed.   Here on the Coast (both coasts of course), we depend heavily on the Coast Guard for numerous reasons.   If I believed in Sea Gods, they would be wearing Coastie uniforms.

 @StormR  @momengineer

 The CG is a DHS component that is a uniformed component of the Military, however they are unique that they do cross over missions that involve LE as well as Mil type stuff. Coasties can attend BUDS and I believe 2 Coasties serve with the SEAL Teams. They are pretty unique and varied SAR, Maritime drug interdiction, CT stuff, FP in foreign ports.

They also forward deploy to all the hot spots in the world.

 @ArcticWarrior  @momengineer AW, what about the Coast Guard?  They primarily serve in US.  Are they not part of the general Armed Forces?

 @momengineer

 Yes and no.

Think places like DoE facilities, Federal Prisons etc

 @ArcticWarrior yes, I scanned your attachment...my understanding of Posse Comitatus is that the mil. is allowed to assist, but must be asked first?? (which would correspond to your document where civilian orgs such as FBI and FEMA would have the lead, with DOD in support role)  Am i correct?

 @Klnu  @DominiqueSumner 

Thanks, for the corrected info. As far as the info on the enhanced maritime teams goes, it's a direct quite from a OIG report in 2006.

"In September 2005, in an effort to enhance joint FBI/Coast Guard tactical efforts, the FBI created 14 enhanced maritime SWAT teams, nearly all of which are located in the FBI field office closest to one of the Coast Guard’s 13 Maritime Safety and Security Teams (MSST). The enhanced maritime SWAT teams are to receive additional maritime training and maritime equipment. The additional training will provide the 14 SWAT teams with a limited maritime capability for emergency purposes and allow those teams to work effectively with the MSSTs. The enhanced maritime training will focus primarily on water safety techniques and the unique aspects of tactical operations in the maritime arena."

http://www.justice.gov/oig/reports/FBI/a0626/findings2.htm

@DominiqueSumner She didnt know what she was talking about, or that's a typo. There have always been 9 enhanced teams: LA, NY, Washington Field (DC), Salt Lake City, San Francisco, Atlanta, Miami, Chicago, and Houston.

 @Klnu  @DominiqueSumner 

Yes he was a member of that team, and I got the "19" number from the following 1995 quote by Janet Reno.

Attorney General Janet Reno's Opening Statement Before The Crime Subcommittee of the House Judiciary Committee and the National Security International Affairs and Criminal Justice Subcommittee of the House Government Reform and Oversight Committee

August 1, 1995

"The FBI formed a critical incident response group to deal with crisis situations. This group has also been used successfully in the investigation of the Oklahoma City bombing. In addition, they have provided training to key officials in the Department of Justice and the FBI. The FBI special weapons and tactics or SWAT teams are not better able to assist the HRT in a crisis. The FBI has increased its SWAT team capabilities. There are now 19 enhanced SWAT teams strategically placed around the country; SWAT teams now cross-trained with the hostage rescue team, and the SWAT training unit is now under the direct supervision of the HRT commander."

So those numbers may have changed since then.

@DominiqueSumner There are 9 enhanced teams, not 19. And whoever told you LA is the busiest team must be a member of that team.

 @DominiqueSumner  @StormR

 You are correct on my typo, should read 19 "Enhanced".

@JackMurphyRGR @ArcticWarrior @StormR That was near Atlanta. They did have some Delta breachers and snipers there to support the HRT and FBI SWAT Teams. There was a separate Federal prison takeover in Louisiana at the same time and resources were stretched thin. The FBI Director requested DOD assistance which was authorized by President Reagan.

 @JackMurphyRGR  @ArcticWarrior  @HugeFan  @theAtrium  @StormR 

I wrote a pretty detailed article on the HRT, about 10 years ago, that detailed some of their operations and training up until then. The HRT asked me to remove some information on training locations, and capabilities, that have now been published by former unit members. There are are also several books you may want to look into reading.

No Heroes, Cold Zero, and Phase Line Green.

 @theAtrium Atrium wanted to get your take on this NYT article re drones.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/06/world/middleeast/with-brennan-pick-a-light-on-drone-strikes-hazards.html

This makes some of the points that I was trying to get at a few threads back.  So while we're certainly getting some bad guys and it's easier the question is over time does the policy backfire and become unproductive???

@JackMurphyRGR@ArcticWarrior@StormR

There is/was a movie in development about Delta's involvement in the Atlanta prison riot. Mark Bowden is/was producing it: http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/wb-locks-up-deal-prison-122882

That incident took place in '87 I believe. A few years later HRT actually did breach and take down FCI Talledega after another uprising by Cuban inmates. Ex-HRT operator James McGee wrote a book about it: http://phaselinegreen.com/

 @ArcticWarrior  @HugeFan  @theAtrium  @StormR I am sure that there is some truth to the story but I would consider the details to be RUMINT for now.

 @hjw1dr  @JackMurphyRGR  @StormR

 http://www.seattleweekly.com/1999-12-22/news/delta-s-down-with-it/full/

 @hjw1dr  @JackMurphyRGR  @StormR

 We heard about them at Seattle, it wasnt a big secret

 @JackMurphyRGR  @HugeFan  @theAtrium  @StormR

 I heard the same thing about Panama.

 I was under the impression that D had a few guys go in and put the cameras in the Atl Prison, but the prisoners holding out surrendered when told D was coming. I was hoping you could clarify that.

 @ArcticWarrior  @HugeFan  @theAtrium  @StormR Damn, I will have to watch this.  As far as I know, they never actually went into the cell block as the prisoners surrendered.  However, I did hear a story about Rangers in Panama in the 1980's.  Apparently, a prison filled to Cubans rioted and they sent the Rangers in with axe handles and baseball bats.  No idea if that tall tale is true or not but I always wondered.  Same thing with ambushes in Hondo back in the day.

 @ArcticWarrior  @JackMurphyRGR  @StormR  Wouldn't you have to be sure it's open source? 

 @JackMurphyRGR  @StormR

 How about D at the Seattle WTO protests in 99?

 @HugeFan  @theAtrium  @JackMurphyRGR  @StormR

 http://vimeo.com/38878922

 @ArcticWarrior  @theAtrium  @JackMurphyRGR  @StormR Fair enough but I think Jack might be able to put a bit of "Oppa Deckard Style" on the story that a Hollywood type just wouldn't get. Savvy? 

 @HugeFan  @theAtrium  @JackMurphyRGR  @StormR

 Atalanta Prison Riots 1987.....  That show FBI Files has an epsiode on it

 @theAtrium  @JackMurphyRGR  @ArcticWarrior  @StormR Jack : Seriously, you gonna fill us in on those D-Boys and the Georgia Prison? I don't think that I am alone in wanting to hear that bedtime story.

 @JackMurphyRGR  @ArcticWarrior  @StormR

Is it true there's actually a Delta guy doing hard time for hard crime in some American prison somewhere?

 @JackMurphyRGR  @StormR

 I had heard that they wore the Blue FBI Raid jackets to get by the cameras

 @JackMurphyRGR  Jack: If we said "No" then would you write us an article about it? If your answer is "yes" then our answer is "No" :-)

 @ArcticWarrior  @StormR That's the first time I heard about that...

 @JackMurphyRGR  @StormR

 Yes I have.....is it realy true about them putting on another agencies unis so the cameras wouldnt figure it out?

 @ArcticWarrior  @StormR Anyone heard the story about Delta almost going in to fuck up a cell block in Georgia back in the day?

 @StormR

 Prisoner transfer from cell block 1138.......

 @ArcticWarrior okies..all 56.  Well, that's okay...nothing to see here..just harmless me wandering by...'these are not the sheep you're looking for'  :)

 @StormR

 Thats right all 56    ; )