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Home » Op-Ed » Chicks Go to Ranger School

Chicks Go to Ranger School

by Jack Murphy · May 20, 2012 · Posted In: Op-Ed
Swamp_Phase_Ranger_School_2009
I was going to go on an epic rant but I found someone who said it and sourced it better than I did, so here it is.  First hearing about this a few weeks ago, I held off commenting until we had confirmation.  Yesterday, it hit the press.  Maybe when I regain my composure I will take a shot at it myself.  It sounds like many, if not most, former Rangers are okay with this if the high standards are maintained at the school house.  I don’t have that much confidence in the Army.  No one will resign in protest but will rather bow down to political pressure to have a certain quota of female Ranger School graduates. -Jack Murphy (Ranger School Class 04-04)

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It was clear that nobody’s opinion was being solicited. The message came from the Chief of Staff of the Army, and the order seems to have come from echelons above him: Ranger School will admit women within a few months. And the women willpass, whatever it takes.

Female officers have complained that the lack of the school credential disadvantages them for promotions and commands, and in an election year their complaints have found champions among the political appointees in the Office of the Secretary of Defense. In a Department whose highest priority is the Secretary’s million-dollar Gulfstream commute, and that has lost interest in two ongoing wars and a dozen other flashpoints where soldiers risk their lives daily, a stroke of a pen can upend a 60-year-old course that embodies a tradition with roots in the 18th Century.

And it just did.

The Ranger Training Brigade has been told to roll the welcome mat and the first class could be 03/13 but will definitely be 05/13 at the latest. Each class in the remainder of FY 13 will receive five to eight women, and the treatment, mentoring, nurturing and ultimate success of those female candidates will be intensively managed by the Chief of Staff and the Sergeant Major of the Army, not to mention civilian appointees. The male candidates in the same courses are not of interest to the command, as long as they don’t interfere with or criticize the women. Even the timing of the feminized classes was established for political reasons: to ensure that a fait accompli of female Ranger attendees, if not graduates is presented to the incoming SecDef and Secretary of the Army if, as the current leaders think likely, their patron is defeated in November. They did not want to put women in class 1/13, which starts in October, to prevent Congress from intervening before the elections, but 2/13 is an outside possibility.

Current Ranger graduates, Ranger veterans, and the Ranger units and Ranger training establishment were never consulted about the decision. Officers who argued against it in Pentagon meetings have already been dismissed or shunted into career-ending punishment assignments.

The RTB has not been directed that all female candidates must pass regardless of performance, and Ranger Instructors will retain a limited ability to dismiss an individual underperforming woman from the course, as long as “enough” women remain to please the higher-ups. But they will have to justify every dismissal to the highest levels of command, who have made their intention clear. Regardless of performance, the majority of women attendees must pass — at least as high a graduating percentage as the men in the same class. For the first time in Ranger history, graduation will be guaranteed — for some.

Read the rest from WeaponsMan.

How do SOFREP’s readers feel about this?



 

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CAMedic
CAMedic 5pts

This "Politcal-Correctness" of the current administration and of media is becoming overwhelming and is bound to failure. This article PROVES that commanders will send a under-qualified "candidate" and this "candidate" will be pushed through even if she did not earn it. Just for the tab on the soldier. It's not a glory school, if it were easy everyone would guy and everyone in the Army would have a tab. They should do away with the tab for anyone who has not served in a Ranger Regiment (or SOF) and just make it a "Leadership School" if it's going to be for "promotions". It will show up on ERB just like SERE school does, but NO TAB. 

czechinthepipes
czechinthepipes 5pts

I am just curious, but has this happened yet or is there any new info? I ask because I thought October or November was the deadline for this being decided. (If I am incorrect my apologies). 

fRICKnA
fRICKnA 5pts

Poor Rangers. Since this is political and serves no tactical purpose or benefit in combat, I am concerned for what this means for them. In an ironic twist, we should force minors to serve in Congress.. Affirmative action against age discrimination!

blkyank
blkyank 5pts

Could this be a result of so many male soldiers passing up the chance to attend Ranger school?

 

This is another step towards admitting women into the combat arms.

 

The  Marines are letting women into Infantry training soon as well.

 

Don't put it all on Obama since the trend has been going since the Clinton area and Bush didn't do anything to reverse it.

 

The sad truth is this is a reflection of the fact that since the end of the draft,the responsibility of military service is no longer seen as belonging solely to men.Since a very small portion of the overall public has/is/or will do military service,they see anybody who does sign up as being as capable as anybody else.

blkyank
blkyank 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

There is one way to deal with this while keeping up the standard.Put Ranger school into a Ranger pipe line starting with RASP,then Ranger school followed by a minimum of 18 months service in the 75TH.

 

This is not about women wanting to serve as Rangers,its about the status a Ranger tab has for promotional purposes in the Army.

 

Make Ranger school a follow on course you can only reach as a shooter the same way one has to pass SFAS to reach the  Q course in SF.

docjoycedc
docjoycedc 5pts

I just went through CAS and females were present. There was a clear separate unwritten standard for them. They finished woefully behind on all the rucks and runs, and one who actually finished (most didn't) was caught with a light ruck TWICE and still selected. She was tabbed out with air assault pathfinder and I'm sure now will be pushed through Ranger school.

Recon6
Recon6 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @docjoycedc   That is Exactly the situation everyone was fearing - preferential treatment, lowered standards etc.  How could it be any other way, such b.s.  6

docjoycedc
docjoycedc 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

@Recon6 What I saw was females surviving CAS and barely. I joined the Army as an Officer to go SF and was given CA at the ARSOF board. There is a huge push towards more guys in that portion of SOF. The rumor is that all selections are being (SFAS CAS and PSOP) will eventually merge candidates. That is absolutely horrific as females bring the entire process down a notch in intensity and effect. I was still challenged a bit at CAS but it was a terrible reminder seeing the signs for Green Berets that my chance never came. I'm most likely going to get out of active duty and attempt SF via the guard as I'm a little worried about CA "opperators" who can't carry there own weight and are used to being treated with kid gloves. I'm fairly liberal on many issues but Christ sakes, this is WAR it's not fair, it's not clean and 250 pounds is 250pounds. Power points or wishful thinking can't change physiology.

Recon6
Recon6 5pts

 @docjoycedc  @Recon6 As you can tell, this was/is one of the most volatile issues on SOFREP!! 

I offer my condolences on not meeting your Dream, Yet!!  Plan B sounds like a possibility and we wish you well.

There simply will never be equal standards, it is an impossibility.  As you peruse the myriad topics on SOFREP you no doubt learned this remains the most polarizing, and it should be a no brainer, lol.

If you read the Entire comment section some of the people will give you a headache!  Senseless and lacking reality, lol.    R6

Alwrightlaw
Alwrightlaw 5pts

As an Old guy [12-92], I am a little out of touch as I am not currently on active duty and have not been for some time. I really struggle with this one for the simple reason that I don't have faith in the Army to maintain the standard. I remember back in the day, when I went to PLDC as a young Ranger tabbed CPL; it was my first experience working with females and the standards were heinously broken.   I also remember foreign Ranger students being passed when they clearly had not met the standard.  I can see both sides of the issue because I have two beautiful daughters and I married a West Point grad who is TOUGH, as are my daughters. To be honest, WHY?  Leave social experiments for the civilian world!!!!

tshaddix
tshaddix 5pts

As an RI (RANGER Instructor) once told me, "If you're gonna have a standard, there has to be a minimum".

SEAL76
SEAL76 5pts

 @tshaddix Agreed there must be a minimum. Lets not lower that standard for anyone regardless of gender.

Allwet
Allwet 5pts

Aviators yes...Infantry no. Maintaining the same standards won't happen...if they were they were rigidly the same, the problem would solve it self, until the "hopey-changies" decide its not "fair" because their wouldn't be any making it through.Once you lower standards...thats it. PC has no place in this role whatsoever.If this crap starts, then ....the ball starts rolling...right over any Instructor that pushes a wash out ,like adolan said.Instructor discretion plays a large role in any type of "selection" based q-courses....you can think you are the baddest ass out there, but you have a quirck or flaw only they see....you will be gone,usually for good reason(whether or not you think so). You lose a few Instructors that way, a few more "rules" get put in place , and so , and so on.....and pretty soon you compromise  what many consider the best Light Infantry fighters in the world.Wonder what the Rangers themselves think-that's who it will affect the most.I can't get past this :"Because we all know a 120# female can hump a bleeding out 180# male up a steep ridge line in the **** with a combat load, just a fast as a 170-200# man .

SEAL76
SEAL76 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Allwet Can't change the standards for any MOS or NEC. How  can a person(female) even feel worthy and truly part of a unit if they haven't actually done exactly what their male counterparts have done to earn the Ranger Tab, Jump Wings, or Naval Aviator Wings. It is just not right. We have to keep our standards high to get the best war fighters. Who would  want a  neurosurgeon or a cardiologist who hadn't completed the all of the rigorous training to the highest standards that are required by medical boards. I sure wouldn't want someone who got into the profession based on gender or color and not on proper qualification working on me. I wouldn't want a mechanic working on my brakes who had some preferential treatment based on some bullshit.

AD7
AD7 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

I don't believe this. Serving your country is not a right, it's a privilege. This isn't about whether the women can do the job or not. I'm sure some would make great rangers. But this complicates an already extremely complicated job. It's only a matter of time before someone's going to get uncomfortable and demands extra measure for privacy or a girl gets washed out and tries to capitalize on the fact that she was physically at a disadvantage or was targeted by the instructors. Look at West Point. Back when it was an all male academy they used to, almost without fail, be turning out some of the toughest, hardened officers in combat engineering. Now they're graduating ladies majoring in psychology. This was a big step in the wrong direction.

Allwet
Allwet 5pts

Now to keep it perspective- this is not directed towards female roles elsewhere, or even some utilization by the "specials"....and it is only my 2 cents.

Allwet
Allwet 5pts

I am gonna be lazy and use an old post responding to the same issue in kit up- it was response to specific poster; but while we ain't all the sharpest tools in the shed-"we'll leave a mark" so to speak -ie-you'll get the gist....

Who ever said this must be lookin to “get some”, or perhaps thinks that a few females in his crossfit cl*** are “******”.

“Let’s cut to the core. Every last alpha male can kick scream and whine about how women can’t physically do there job (sorry but I know a lot of females that can smoke most infantry and Special Forces soldiers and day of the week).”

1.You meant “any”, but you are full of ******* only for making the above statement, and apparently believing it, but for completely disregarding the lives of men who lay their’s down for you every ******* day, whether you realize it or not. But please be careful in your next yoga session.2. A crossfit cl*** isn’t a combat situation, “exercises” are easy enough to “learn” in your leotards.Some women can and do get into serious physical condition…its not the same kiddees.3. ALPHA MALE????? …Well using that phrase in the manner you have pretty id’s you as a female, or the next best thing. You are definitely a noncombatant.4.This isn’t really an equal opportunity playground.This is for real, its not “lifetime”TV-THE REASON YOU SEE SO MANY OF WHAT YOU FEEL ARE “SILLY MYSOGINIST”(YEAH-HAD TO GOOGLE THAT ONE!)COMMENTS IS BECAUSE IF YOU’VE EVER HAD YOUR BUDDIES OR EVEN A STRANGERS BLOOD /GUTS BLOWN ALL OVER YOU, WHEN SURROUNDED BY HIGHLY TRAINED AND MOTIVATED INDIVIDUALS IN PEAK PHYSICAL CONDITION, YOU TEND TO GET EXTREMELY ****** THAT THE PC PEOPLE “THINK” ITS A COOL IDEA THATFEMALES ARE JUST AS CAPABLE AS THE AFOREMENTIONED MALES.Shag your “PC” *** out there and try it yourself, then try to make that same argument.5. The previous statement was a moot point , because you won’t…but you will completely disregard other people lives, in order to “right”.6.For a third time:”Because we all know a 120# female can hump a bleeding out 180# male up a steep ridge line in the **** with a combat load, just a fast as a 170-200# man….its all good til you are the one bleeding out.”7.”I’m just sick and tired of the over emotional BS on both sides of the issue.”..We tend to get emotional over body bags full of buddies. That’s what you are arguing against.8. A banana in your pants?I doubt its in the front.9. That last remark was stupid of me, but this IS a STUPID argument.

 

 

JuliaHugoRachel1
JuliaHugoRachel1 5pts

I would hate to think this is a strategic political move to gain women voters for the incumbent. However, "by the elections", kind of says it is a hot topic. Maybe it is like Quadaafi's Green Book BodyGuard Gals. When we examine in depth these women, it seems more for show than tell. They stressed the "ideology" of women serving in Libya. Perhaps, this is what it will end up as here. More ideological than actual women on the front lines. I just can't see it happening in large numbers. If it is a lowering of standards by any means, I am against it. Women are very good at many things. Let things be equal. Do they lower the standards for women flying jets?

SEAL76
SEAL76 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @JuliaHugoRachel1 If the women are able to complete the training using the same physical and mental standards of their male counterparts let them have at it. No gender discrimination as was done for Naval aviators and Airborne school.

Eric_Strattoniii
Eric_Strattoniii 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @SEAL76  @JuliaHugoRachel1 What Airborne school did you go to SEAL76? They met the female standards, not the male and were mostly pushed through when guys were dropped for the same things, such as falling out on (painfully slow) runs. Naval Aviation started out the same way, can't vouch for it now but they do not do it like "Officer and a Gentleman" anymore.  

Recon6
Recon6 5pts

 @SEAL76  @MizAmerica3  @Eric_Strattoniii   76, in it for the additional money?  6

Recon6
Recon6 5pts

 @SEAL76  @MizAmerica3  @Eric_Strattoniii   76,  ain't like it was when we went thru for sure...was an ass kicker at times, now days, gotta let the 'girls' pass, hell my grandson, a 2lt in the Marines says just be glad you aren't around it anymore, it sucks!   6

SEAL76
SEAL76 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @MizAmerica3  @Eric_Strattoniii Why do females have to be airborne qualified in the first place? Why do they get the Airborne Qualified status if they haven't actually fulfilled the minimum requirements? It makes no sense. Wasting billets for PC bullshit.

MizAmerica3
MizAmerica3 5pts

 @SEAL76  @Eric_Strattoniii Had a son graduate Airborne School last year, it coincided with the 20th Anniversary of the first Females to graduate.  The Honor Grad was a Female, she literally had to be kicked out of the plane and cried.  And this past weekend I had a visit from a soldier who was starting jump week this week, 2 women in his class fall out of the run constantly and they still remain in the class.........It ain't what it used to be :(

SEAL76
SEAL76 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Eric_Strattoniii Misunderstanding. I know they met the female standards which are not the same as male. Therefore they really didn't earn their wings. I went o Airborne School in 1970. No girls allowed back then.Not the toughest school but still a challenge.

JuliaHugoRachel1
JuliaHugoRachel1 5pts

 @Eric_Strattoniii I'd like to ad that there was a remarkable reduction to morale in the USAF drectly linked to putting women in close quarters with men in war zones. Its' been a difficult adjustment for many of my friends.

 

JuliaHugoRachel1
JuliaHugoRachel1 5pts

 @SEAL76 I agree.

 

Eric_Strattoniii
Eric_Strattoniii 5pts

Yet another example of the Army and apparently the world ignoring facts and recent studies by both the Brits and the US on women in combat, hey but what do these people care, they won't be in the field with them, certainly none of the advocates will be at least-

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/jul/30/army-may-train-women-for-rigor-of-front-lines/?page=all

 

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Eric_Strattoniii

 Eric brother here it is, all we need to know from said article

 

" and Army officials have talked of making a decision before the November elections"

SeanMiklas
SeanMiklas 5pts

Sorry to bump an old thread but I just found this video and believe it's relevant to the argument on keeping woman out of Ranger School. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=fy--whDNNKk#!

Eric_Strattoniii
Eric_Strattoniii 5pts

 @SeanMiklas It's a great video, people will just ignore it though. No one want's to hear the truth or use common sense or think about the big picture.

SEAL76
SEAL76 5pts

I read a story in a book about LRRPs training at Nha Trang RECONDO School mentioning SEAL going through the training. What I found odd was that the author claimed the SEALs complained about the swimming. As a former SEAL I have my doubts. Here is the thing. I can not find any SEALs from the Vietnam era who attended RECONDO or any other LRRP school in Vietnam. Any comments?

Rawhide
Rawhide 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

When all the divisions in Vietnam LRRP companies were converted to the 75th Ranger Battalion, they required all LRRPs to attend RECONDO School.  Some of had been doing the sneak and peek routine for months already, but we are glad to be out of the bush for a couple of weeks.  I don't recall any SEALs in my class nor of hearing of any attending the school.  Of course I didn't have any information regarding classes other than the ones attended by members of my company.  The rivers and streams were so bad that if you stuck your hand in it, you could have leaches  completely covering it.  And then there were some dangerous water snakes as well.  I'm sorry that I can't provide any btter info.  I'm getting more and more memory malfunctions of lately.

katgirl231
katgirl231 5pts

 @Rawhide All of us baby-boomers are in the same boat!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXL3AXGEmqc

http://escort68.tripod.com/71StLRP/id13.html <- my gosh I think I recognize a couple of names

http://www.vietnamgear.com/Article.aspx?Art=54

 

katgirl231
katgirl231 5pts

btw - a good friend of mine (recently retired Maj 5th group) and I were talking last year about seeing more of the hard training elite regiments go through.  He said that his reaction was (we were talking about sniper, spec ops scuba school, rangers etc - all the stuff he did) that they all seemed a lot easier now than they used to be.  My reaction was - they look impossible now so this does not compute!

johndixon628
johndixon628 5pts

Have things changed that much? Back in my day (yeah, I'm old), only certain specific MOS's were eligible for Ranger School. I knew of quite a few guys who had to re-up for those specific MOS's just to start their process for a Ranger tab. I didn't catch in this article where that applied to potential female applicants. How can that possibly be, does the Army now have female 11B and such? Anyone who can clarify that for me, please do so. 

OldRGR
OldRGR 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @johndixon628 Ranger School through the years has bounced back and forth between being open to only combat arms MOS to open to all MOS.  RS opened back up to all MOS sometime in the 1990s.  The damn school has always said it is not a leadership school, but a small unit tactics school and that leadership training is just a by product.  If that is the case then if should be only open to combat arms MOS and mainly 11B and 19D.  In my opinion, feel free to disagree with me but you will be wrong!!! Lol

johndixon628
johndixon628 5pts

 @OldRGR Thanks for the info. I have heard so many different versions from guys who presumably started the course since my days (early to mid 80's) I truly have no idea what the criteria is anymore. Sounds like not many other people do either.

Appreciate it OldRGR - Rangers Lead the Way.

SEAL76
SEAL76 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

This whole thing with women in the Rangers is crap unless they are put through exactly the same training. The Rangers are an elite commando unit that is second to none when it comes to what they do. We don't need social experiments to screw up a good thing. However that being said the Viet Cong had female combatants and agents and they were very effective.The deal is though that they were raised in an environment that was tough. Rice paddies, hard work, no blow dries, skin cream, and so on. They were tough women. I guess you could say the same thing about our males as compared to their males since most American males are raised in fairly comfortable setting. Even our poorest citizens have more than the poor in third world countries.  Most American Males and Females are soft. They think working out in a gym and getting toned or huge makes them tough or super fit. We know that is not the case. Treadmills, pools and weight rooms don't compare to the grinder, the PT area, the woods, the soft sand, the swamps, the cold water of the ocean or a river. Yet somehow we still field a bad ass military. So maybe, just maybe there will be some women who can make the cut. But again how will it play out in combat or even everyday garrison life?

Rawhide
Rawhide 5pts

All that will change when they allow women in the combat arms and the rangers in particiliar.  I'm and old soldier, 101st airborne in Vietnam 1968-69.  I was in the Division LRRP company and then in early 69 the Army converted all LRRP companies to the 75th Ranger Battalion.  We went through the Special Forces training camp, for the life of me I can't remember the camp's name.  The training wasn't long, 4 weeks I remember, because we were already experienced in small unit tactics.  I think that while we have a very professional army at this time, that will change with the creeping invasion of women in the combat arms, especially the rangers.  The only other army that I can remember having women in combat arms is the Israeli army.   There is nothing like the strength building capacity of the obstical course, the mud and sand of beaches.  But still I hope they don't lower the standards for Ranger School like they have in so many other areas.

katgirl231
katgirl231 5pts

@Rawhide

Note: my emotions are totally neutral while reading your post and replying here.  Just because I can read this in a couple of ways; "while we have a very professional army at this time, that will change with the creeping invasion of women in the combat arms."

Do you mean the presence of women will cause the behavior and abilities of soldiers to become unprofessional?  Women included even if regiments don't become less effective make it by definition unprofessional?  Women's personalities will sabotage the unity and morale?  I'm not upset.  I'm just not clear and if you could expand on it, that would be great.

 

Rawhide
Rawhide 5pts

Based upon the standards of conduct of the American male towards the female, we, the males have always be protective of women in general and our wives and daughters specificly.  Combat is very violent and all hell breaks loose, male soldiers will perform according to training.  However, when a woman is thrown into the mix, male soldiers may and do attempt to protect the female to the determent of the team, meaning it could cause the death of one or all of the team.

 

At this time we have a very strong army, this army will be effected by all the social changes that are taking place at this time.  I have served in Vietnam and in Europe.  From what I saw when I was there, forcing those changes upon the combat forces of those various countries, weakened their militaries.

 

Nothing personal, but when standards are changed to accomadate women, it weakens the military overall.  With that being said, there are some women that can perform the given tasks better than some men, but does that mean those women should be put in combat with men, no it does not.  Combat changes people, it makes them hard and uncaring towards the enemy and a bond is created between members of the team, a bond that only death can break. 

LauraWalkerKC
LauraWalkerKC moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

Just want to tell you kids - I'm slogging through 600+ posts and there's a lot of meat on these ribs.  That's appreciated. And thank you for the sauce.  You know who you are :)

LCpl X Hates Censorship and Group Think
LCpl X Hates Censorship and Group Think 5pts

I noticed the first female SOF thread had been overtaken by 15 comments, and all without Navy SEAL Eric. There's one more thing though, that's been overlooked. That is female funk. It will give away your position 50 miles away, but will also be useful for ambush, distraction or decoy ops. As a utilitarian, I see this as strength.

LCpl X apologizes to Brandon and Ted
LCpl X apologizes to Brandon and Ted 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @AdSeg245 

 

This is such a fallacy. Not all women smell, and not all women smell the same. Just like some men have BO, and others don't. The smell can be minimized with proper hygiene, some soap & water.

katgirl231
katgirl231 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @Trin3  @AdSeg245 plus men also have a distinct and strong er bouquet.  There's even a word for it in Japanese.  When I was in college and would be going up to my dept in the science building w/o a/c and with an elevator packed with Middle Eastern ME students, well (and this is not meant in a derogatory way), because of the diet.  I'd say the olfactory effect was twice as much as any of us here.

Rawhide
Rawhide 5pts

Sounds like a plan.  I'd be interested in hear his story.

Rawhide
Rawhide 5pts

Yes I did, it was tough.  I'm not a very good swimmer.  Well actually I swim like a fish, all under water.  I never could get the hang of swimming on top of the water like normal people.

katgirl231
katgirl231 5pts

 @Rawhide You did that school - wow'uh

katgirl231
katgirl231 5pts

 @SEAL76  @Rawhide it so happens that we took my dad to the Congressional Gold Medal ceremony for the 442nd/100th and one of the speakers was a retired Maj General.  I looked at his bio and my eyes popped when I saw that he was 5th Group MACV/SOG I think partially in charge of training.  I went up later to try to talk to him and ask if he was part of the Recondo/Project Delta/B-52 training.  Pretty blown away - but he had already left.  I have his name and where he lives - maybe I'll try and contact him to see if he'd be interested in writing an article

Rawhide
Rawhide 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

Yes it was a very tough school.  The toughest that I've ever been to.  I was lucky, I has been doing sneak and peek for a couple of months when I went.  I'm glad that I didn't attend the one they have now, because I hear that it is several months long.  My youngest son signed up just before we went into Iraq.  He took basic at Ft Benning, Sand Hill area, the same as I did in 1968.  He went to airborne schoolthe ranger pretest, but was tired of training and was assigned to the 82nd Airborne Div.  I ws assigned to 101st Airborne in Vietnam.  He ws a natural soldier, but unfortunately he was wounded and decided to get out.  Nothing serious but a wound is a wound and its a life changer.

SEAL76
SEAL76 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Rawhide RECONDO named by Gen Westmoreland. I thought it meant Recon commando. Turns out it meant Reconnaissance Doughboy. Shows how out of touch Westy was. Tough school. A guy in my church went through at Nha Trang. I am still trying to find out if there is anyone who went there that remembers any SEALs who attended.

Rawhide
Rawhide 5pts

 @katgirl231 Thank you for the RECONDO school info, its' been a long time since then and even though I try to keep it (Vietnam) locked in a box in the back of my mind, it keeps sneaking out from time to time.  But at least now it's easier to deal with, and when I meet up with an old vet we reminisce about those days.  We just touch the fun or good part, we never go into forbidden territory.

 

I like you comments about Vietnamese and Korean food.  Now I do have some fond memories of Korea in 1972-73 after my last tour in Vietnam in 1972.  In 1972, I didn't spend the full year in Vietnam, but I got credit for a full year.  But I did nave to spend 13 months in Korea.

 

katgirl231
katgirl231 5pts

 @Rawhide I know the name Nha Trang well.  I should be careful about how I say this, but I know where you're coming from.  I do enjoy Vietnamese food (at least here the quality is good), the voice....yeah.  I have trouble with it too.  I have the same trouble with nasally whiny country girls, almost the same but pitched way higher.  If you haven't had the pleasure of hearing just a part of a female solo in a classical Vietnamese or Chinese opera, it will totally re-calibrate you.  It will also make your brains liquefy and flow out of your ears and nose.  I don't mind fresh Kimchee (at least what you get here) but it's after a couple of hours and coming out of the breath and pores that I have trouble er extracting the maximum pleasure out of.  We had one girl in an advanced ballet class.  She'd often have Korean food for lunch and despite the lack of room in the studio during 5pm class, there would be a big space around her - kind of like Alexander Fleming's penicillin discovery :D

Rawhide
Rawhide 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

In an earlier post I couldn't remember the name of the SF camp in Vietnam, well my memory has returned.  The name of that camp was Nha Trang was where Rangers were trained by the 5th SF group.  Now Katgirl, I now avoid Vietnamese food like the plague and the sound of any Vietnamese woman's voice is like the sound of fingernails on a chalkboard.  I just can't stand the two and I know several Vietnamese people.  I served several tours in Korea.  During lunch \\\ the locals would eat Kimchee and the smell was so strong the would make your eyes water and you would need a gas mask to work inside.

katgirl231
katgirl231 5pts

 @Rawhide It's good to hear that stuff again.  I used to read about it.  Also having been a western spot and stalk bowhunter (Mule deer don't have set trails so you can't expect to put a tree hide up and see anything), I have a decent intuitive sense of scent and the lightest drafts...the two always reminded me of each other.  Oh I love Chinese, Vietnamese and Korean food, but I am careful not to eat too much of it too often.  The second hand smell is something else!

Rawhide
Rawhide 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @katgirl231 Yor are correct about the Vietnamese thing.  The Nuoc Man sauce is mixed with fermented fish and rice.  And yes the Rangers were using this mix when I arrived in country, only they weren't rangers then, they were LRRPs, Long Range Recon Patrols.  They didn't become rangers until march April 1969.  Anyway the food mix was such that when you ate it, after a while you began to smell just like the VC.  It saved our lives out in the bush.  We would sneak and peek in VC controlled territory and could not afford to be detected, because detection meant death.

Rawhide
Rawhide 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

I'm a Vietnam Vet and I'll vouch for what that vet said.  You could smell the VC a long ways away and they could smell you as well if you took a shower before you went out into the bush.  Being in a small team. 5-6 men, and miles away from help, we could not afford to be detected.  So how did we defeat our smell?  Several days before we were to go out we stopped taking showers and brushing our teeth with toothpaste.  The jungle was rotten and we smelled rotten as well, so we blended in well.  We ate the same type of food the VC ate, so our s**t didn't smell much different than theirs.  So diet and BO helped conceal us very well.

johndixon628
johndixon628 5pts

 @Recon6  @katgirl231  @Trin3 

If I live the rest of my life without having to smell kimchee again, I'll die happy about it.

Recon6
Recon6 5pts

 @katgirl231  @Trin3  Kat, you bring back many memories!  First with nuoc mam, fermented fish juices, and yes, you could smell the little people at quite a distance.  Then kimchee, the Koreans gave off quite an aroma.  But then, to an Asian we Americans also must have seemed strange...

katgirl231
katgirl231 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Trin3 Realize that I'm essentially 4th generation :) and I took only two semesters of it in college, but I studied darned hard (I'm much better at French).  The word is "otokokusai."  The polite non-literal translation would be 'man scent.'  But the word 'kusai' actually means 'stink.' http://www.jp41.com/kanji/kusai.html.  Whenever something went old in the refrigerator my mom or dad would say loudly, Ku'sai!  Almost like a country accent.  Japanese are very meticulous about hygiene. 

 

I've heard about the Vietnamese thing (that Nuoc Mam and fermented shrimp stuff whew).  Years ago I read about when LURP rations were invented for the Yard and Vietnames counterparts.  A mix of freeze-dried fish and instant rice and the Ranger found a company in Saigon (I think) who could vacuum pack it in plastic.  So everyone would eat it for awhile to help tone down the US diet.  Someone please correct me if I'm wrong btw. 

 

Genetics and diet - that's for sure.  There was a fellow who became a friend of mine, a VP with KAL and was moved near LAX to help with operations with his family back home.  All he had in his fridge was OB beer and Kim Chee bottles.  The way the breeze usually went, my apartment front door was downwind along the entry walkway.  No lie, I could smell him coming from 50ft away because of the draft under my front door.  He never figured out how I always knew to open the front door and say hi :)  Since I did some bowhunting, I got used to walking really slowly and pausing, using all the senses and lightest breezes (sound familiar).  You guys might not believe it, but for a girl, I'd go three or four days with my hunting partner no noises before coming out.  The San Gabriels of SoCal is tuff so I never got anything but I learned a lot, enjoyed the stalking or hiding, and saw a lot of animals most hikers would never see.  He grew up with his trapper native American grandmother and knew some stuff!

LCpl X apologizes to Brandon and Ted
LCpl X apologizes to Brandon and Ted 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @katgirl231 

 

What's the Japanese word for it? I once met a Vietnam vet who recalled smelling the Viet Cong half a mile or more away in a thick jungle. He described their smell as sour, while Europeans and Africans were more musky, so he knew friend or foe. He said they ate Vietnamese food with the locals, so although diet contributes, genetics also more.

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