• The TOC
  • SOFREP Explained
  • The Loadout Room
  • Team Room
SOFREP.com - THE Special Operations Forces Report
SOFREP Logos AFSOC MARSOC NSWC USASOC
  • News & Intel
    • SOF News
    • Op-Ed
    • AFSOC
    • MARSOC
    • NSWC
    • USASOC
    • Coalition SOF
    • SOF History
    • Special Operations
    • Black Ops & Intel
    • Admin
    • No Kidding There I Was
  • About Spec Ops
    • AFSOC
    • MARSOC
    • NSWC
    • USASOC
    • Coalition SOF
  • SOFREP TV
    • Inside the Team Room: U.S. Army Rangers
    • Heroes of U.S. Special Operations
    • Inside the Team Room: U.S. Navy SEALs
  • SOFREP Radio
  • Charities
  • Comms Check
    • Share Your War Stories
    • SOFREP Explained
  • The PX
Home Previous story Next story
submit to reddit
Like us on Facebook Follow us on Twitter Follow us on Youtube
Home » Special Operations » Why are standards plummeting in the Ranger Assessment and Selection Program?

Why are standards plummeting in the Ranger Assessment and Selection Program?

by Jack Murphy · July 8, 2012 · Posted In: Special Operations, USASOC
Rangersniperafghan
With the Army issuing a press release to announce a new Discovery Channel Special called Hell and Back, Special Ops Ranger, there was one curious factoid published with it that left many of us in the Ranger community taken aback. The documentary follows a class of prospective Rangers through RASP, the Ranger Assessment and Selection Program which is a pre-requisite for serving in the 75th Ranger Regiment.

Related Posts
  • The Evolution of the 75th Ranger Regiment (pt. 2): Selecting and Building a Ranger
  • The Ranger Standard
  • The 75th Ranger Regiment Goes To Hollywood

The Ranger Regiment is known to maintain tough standards in regards to everything from physical appearance, to maintenance of equipment, and most importantly, performance in combat and job competency. These standards are enforced, violators are shown the door and Released For Standards but more critical than that, these non-performers are usually never allowed through the door to begin with, they are weeded out during the selection process which historically only has a 30% graduation rate.

This is why we were shocked when the Army press released stated, “114 Soldiers started Class 5-12; 91 Rangers graduated.” This is a shockingly high graduation rate of about 80% as opposed to the historical 30% that pass RASP and before that RIP. These graduation rates signify is massive drop in the physical and/or academic standards that RASP students are being held too in order to move on to a Ranger Battalion.

When questioned about this disturbing trend the Ranger Regiment’s Public Affairs Officer wrote, “The standards are the same. This happened to be a class full of studs and Soldiers determined not to fail on camera.”

This statement however does not pass the most cursory amount of scrutiny. An entire class of rare physical specimens is a laughable impossibility to anyone who has spent any amount of time in these selection programs. Perhaps some students were hesitant to quit in front of the camera but the presence of a camera does not magically grant RASP students with the ability to knock out an additional fifty pushups on the PT test or allow them to ruckmarch 12 miles any faster than usual.

There is also a robust Pre-RASP program that we did not have back when we went to RIP. This is a great addition to help prepare soldiers for selection but even the best preparatory program would increase the graduation rates by perhaps 5% or 10% on the very high end. Pre-RASP does not explain an alarming 80% graduation rate.

Ranger Selection

RASP is a critical phase in developing, screening, and vetting young Rangers just like SFAS and BUD/S is for Special Forces and SEALs.

Several years ago the Ranger Indoctrination Program was updated from three weeks to eight weeks when it turned into RASP, a much needed change considering the increased level of professionalization that has occurred in the Ranger Regiment during the War on Terror. Former and active duty Rangers applauded the new changes and standards were maintained with graduation rates as low as 24%.

Something changed with RASP class 5-12. In the class that the Discovery Channel filmed, 20 RASP students failed Land Nav and still graduated. 7 students were caught drinking and still graduated. A student received 90% negative peer reviews and still graduated. Since class 5-12, graduation rates have continued to be abnormally high with upwards to 130 students graduating per class.

After being held accountable to standards and enforcing them as well, these numbers leave many current and former Rangers embarrassed, disgusted, and ashamed.

Why are standards being lowered in order to increase the number of Soldiers who graduate RASP? The presence of the Discovery Channel may have influenced the RASP cadre and the Officers appointed over them to “take it easy” on the students for the sake of Public Relations and political correctness.

It could be that recent organizational changes within SOCOM are driving leaders to want the Regiment at full capacity so that everything looks good on paper.

Something also happened amongst the RASP cadre that now has them walking on egg shells but the real reasons for the decrease in standards can only be speculated upon at this time, what we do know is that they are in fact decreasing. While the Regiment’s PAO is bragging about how high their graduation rates are, as if it validates new training techniques, those of us who served know what is really happening behind the scenes and it is a travesty that will take years to recover from.

Some will argue with with the Regiment’s increased optempo that it is necessary to lower standards to get more Rangers into the Regiment but this is short sighted and fails to consider the number of seasoned NCO’s who will notice the lack of accountability and lowered standards. They will then lose these Sergeants as they decide to go to Special Forces or Delta selection. Others will simply leave the Army for jobs in the private sector.

Many outsiders will ask why it is important to maintain standards during the Ranger Assessment and Selection Program.

First and foremost is combat readiness. Not all soldiers are mentally and physically able to perform the challenging mission profile that the Ranger Regiment has. This is why Soldiers need to be carefully screened to ensure that they are trainable, mentally sound, and physically fit.

Yes, you can train a Soldier to do more push ups, but giving him the high levels of drive and motivation needed to attain the high levels of physical fitness required is another matter. Other Soldiers do not possess the maturity and mental toughness that they will have to display in training and while deployed to war zones.

Also, some soldiers simply cannot be trained. This will be covered in a moment.

When the threshold that Soldiers must pass to be allowed entry into the Ranger Regiment is lowered, sub-standard performers get into the ranks and cause nearly irreparable damage to the unit. Combat readiness suffers, Team Leaders and Squad Leaders now have to worry about things they never had to worry about before. With an even greater than usual level of supervision needed, their minds are taken off the mission and diverted to policing up Soldiers who refuse to do their jobs.

Standards, not Quotas

It is sad to see that the Army still plays the numbers game. Someone, somewhere, wants their quotas and thinks that opening the flood gates and putting a bunch of warm bodies in formation solves their problem by making the unit look like it is at full strength on paper. The reality is that they have made it weaker than ever before.

When Army leaders decrease the standards to meet quotas they pass the buck down to their junior NCO’s who are now burdened with the additional responsibility of dealing with unqualified Soldiers that like it or not, they will have to deploy to combat with.

The beauty of the Ranger Regiment is that it is largely self correcting. Squad Leaders will quickly build packets on the non-performers and have them Released For Standards. Over a dozen RASP graduates from class 5-12 are already being or have been RFS’ed but it will take years for NCO’s to shovel all of the dead weight out the door.

In the meantime they are stuck with sub-standard Privates who have no business being in the Regiment to begin with. When these Soldiers deploy to Afghanistan and get themselves killed, or get someone else killed, who is responsible for that when everyone knew that they should never had been allowed into the unit in the first place?

Allowing these Soldiers into the Regiment also destroys the high espirt de corp of the unit. Now multiple fronts have been opened within the ranks. There are those who met the standard and belong in the 75th and there are those who did not meet the standard.

Everyone knows this and this fact creates havoc for morale and unit cohesion. You also have to think about these new RASP graduates, many of whom are good Soldiers. They never had the chance to meet the same standards as their peers, they were cheated out of that opportunity through no fault of their own. They too will suffer the consequences.

Screwing up…over and over again

The 75th Ranger Regiment should learn from past mistakes, including those made by others in the Special Operations community. After 9/11 Special Forces came under pressure (more like orders) to increase in size.

There was a sudden demand for Special Forces Soldiers and their unique Unconventional Warfare capabilities. The 18X-Ray program was initiated, allowing young men straight out of High School to attend the Special Forces Assessment and Selection Program. Previously, Soldiers had to have service elsewhere in the Army, they had to do some growing up before applying for Special Forces where they would be expected to have more maturity and autonomy, often in challenging situations in third world countries.

This decision changed the face of Special Forces forever. This does not mean that all 18X-Rays are bad (one writes for this website) as some outstanding young men joined the ranks of Special Forces. However, it also allowed some very, very young and immature Soldiers to become Green Berets. When this happens,

Team Sergeants can no longer count on things getting done without his supervision. It changes the entire mentality of the unit. When this happens, an unconventional warfare unit becomes very conventional in how it trains and fights.

Nothing Special about Special Operations

It was explained to this author that although the 18X-Ray program might have been a failure, a Soldier who does his job only half of the time is a lot better than a Soldier who does his job none of the time because he isn’t there, he is not even on your team because he never would have passed the harsh selection criteria for entry.

This logic is flawed, and the Ranger Regiment should take note of it. That Soldier who only does his job 50% of the time is breaking things the other 50% of the time and dragging the unit down with him. Most small unit leaders that I know and have worked with would rather have four guys on their team who know what they are doing than nine guys who are lost in the sauce.

Special Forces and Rangers are very different types of units, and rightfully so, but there is a lesson here that cuts across the barriers.

The Regiment should also learn from it’s own recent history. Back around 2005 and 2006 the standards in RIP (the predecessor to RASP) were lowered. This brought the Squads to full capacity on Soldiers but made life even more difficult rather than making it easier.

Blood on Our Hands

Let me explain why I feel so strongly about this. In 2005 I was deployed along with my platoon to Mosul with 3rd Ranger Battalion. We had a kid in our platoon that I will call PFC A. Everyone in his Squad knew that he was worthless as a Ranger and shouldn’t be out there with us. Eventually they shuffled the problem around by passing him off to us in Weapons Squad. He was assigned to man the M240B machine gun mounted in the air guard hatch of one of our Stryker armored vehicles.

During missions he would consistently flag fellow Rangers with the machine gun, running the infra-red laser from the PEQ-2 attached to the gun across our assaulters. He was spoken to and given remedial training but this had no effect.

For reasons that are beyond me he was then moved to man an RWS gun system. This position entails sitting inside the Stryker and manning a control console for the Remote Weapons System on top of the vehicle, in this case a M2 .50 caliber machine gun. It is a lot like playing a video game. You look at a black and white screen and use a joystick to control the movement of the gun.

The author with his platoon in Mosul, Iraq

My Privates trained PFC A to use the RWS system but he was unable to operate the controls. I then trained him myself. He seemed to understand the basics but when we would go out on missions he was unable to operate the joystick.

I would come down into the vehicle to sit beside him and place his hand on the joystick. I would then move his hand back and forth to show him how moving the joystick moves the gun crosshairs on the screen as the RWS platform rotates around. PFC A was unable to accomplish this simple task on his own no matter how many times he was re-trained.

I told my Squad Leader about the problem and emphasized that when this kid got someone killed that the blood would be on our hands because we all knew that this Ranger was unable to do his job but we put him in this position anyway. My Squad Leader agreed and made his voice heard. PFC A was then taken off Weapons Squad and shuffled back to a rifle squad.

A few days later, he froze in the middle of a firefight.

Fellow Rangers ended up playing a game of dodge ball with live frag grenades in the close quarters of an extremely dangerous city. Our men walked away, the enemy didn’t. By the grace of god, PFC A survived but the point I had been trying to make was finally driven home. PFC A made coffee for the Colonel the rest of the deployment and was later kicked out of the unit.

Decreasing the standards for selection criteria is criminally negligent. It needlessly places Ranger’s lives at risk and compromises the mission.

Piss Poor Public Relations

The presence of the Discovery Channel for the filming of a RASP class should not cause the cadre to treat the students with kid gloves. This is not the time to display how nice the Regiment is for the cameras, just the opposite. There should be no apologies for high standards, rigorous training, and challenging selection events, up to and including “smoke sessions”.

No one respects modern America’s current mentality of everyone gets a juice box. The public fully expects that their Special Operations soldiers are subjected to tough training and selection.

The grandmas watching don’t respect some weak ass selection program and neither do the young kids watching and thinking about joining the military.

The message this documentary sends is that if you want a challenge then go to BUD/S. If you want an easy, dumbed down selection process then go to RASP. This may or may not be the reality of the situation but as the Army is so fond of saying, “perception is reality.”

This is the perception that this documentary creates and that perception is going to be America’s reality for years to come.

About Our Links
We link to other websites if we find their content compelling. We also link to relevant products on Amazon.com as affiliates. The money we earn from these sales helps keep our website running and a few beers on ice.

Related Posts

  • ranger10

    The Evolution of the 75th Ranger Regiment (pt. 2): Selecting and Building a Ranger

  • rangersGhazni Province, Afghanistan

    The Ranger Standard

  • ranger-pic-sofrep

    The 75th Ranger Regiment Goes To Hollywood

Follow Sofrep on:
Follow @sofrep OR  rss
304 comments
  Livefyre
  • Get Livefyre
  • FAQ
Sign in
+ Follow
Post comment
 
Link
Newest | Oldest
Hasbeen
Hasbeen 5pts

It's not just the Army, add the Air Force in there too.  Something is wrong when it is easier to meet the minimum PAST scores for CCT/PJ at 47 then it was at 22??

MarcMartinez
MarcMartinez 5pts

 @Hasbeen Yes, it may be easier to pass the standards, but how do you get people to join? By lowering the physical requirements! This way when some kid enlists he thinks he has got what it takes to pass the CCT/PJ course when in reality he will most likely fail PJ alone has a 90 percent fail rate. And when he fails he goes where the AF needs him, the AF counts on a lot of new enlistees failing that course so they could put them in a much less desirable job. In other words, propaganda. 

3rd_ID_Medic
3rd_ID_Medic 5pts

I hate to be the "back in my day" guy but, "back in my day" I saw the beginning of the end. I went to Jump School at the beginning of 1989 and at the time we had two run groups, mens and womens. The mens group ran a 6 minute mile and the women ran a 9 minute mile. Fast forward five years. I went to the graduation of some of my troops that had completed the course and found out that the groups had been combined but not as a 6 minute mile group instead at 9 minute miles. So in the interest of "equality" we dumbed down the standards and started churning out male Paratroopers that should never have made the course so that we could claim "equality of the sexes." It should not be a suprise to anyone that has served in the last 20 years that the current administration is doing exactly what the Clinton administration did. Now these clowns have stolen yet again a piece of my Army Bragging rights. Now in 10 years me being a Ranger will be no different than being a subpar Paratrooper today. It's all funny till people have to go down range and get their head shot off because they should never been in a SOCOM unit to begin with. What's next pink multicam for the Delta teams?

future ranger stud
future ranger stud 5pts

 

                    That is all very true, i want to become a ranger and thats my dream, i watched this thinking it was going to help me prepare, but all i thought about was "this is a easy ass selection for a unit like the 75th" and i was very suprised, especially for those who violated during the land navigation task, i mean that part of phase 1 is just like special forces assesment and selection week 1 and all the students who cheated got kicked out or rolled. I would love to go to a class where 80% passed, but i would like it to be 94 amazing rangers and not some guys that got dragged, its a disrespect to former rangers who went threw worst shit than this,  Also if it's being filmed shouldn't it be harder? i mean thats what most units do to shows like surviving the cut, they make it look so the selection is really bad ass, this just makes the Ranger Regiment not what it is, it makes it look like anyone can go threw this. So if someone wants to get into spec ops they will see this and say "hey look, that unit is easy to get into ill just go threw this and become a special operator", its bullshit, 7 soldiers quit, i mean 1 week in buds about 30 students quit out of a class of 90, after phase 1 or week 4 about 20-25 pass. Come on its gotta be harder than this, RASP was created to raise standards right? to make it so they are ready for war in 8 weeks, well its only making the regiment look bad, former rangers said that coleman week was a hell week for Ranger students and they would get barely any sleep and not many meals a day, the show made it look like cake, so please someone explain this to me, the hardest part of the selection was the fucking 12 mile ruck march. so if i can ruck 12 miles in 3 hours im a ranger? pathetic. 

OldRGR
OldRGR 5pts

 @future ranger stud

 Just read Sua Sponte: The Forging of a Modern American Ranger by Dick Couch (former SEAL).  It is a all about RASP 1.  He follows a class from begining to end, then looks at SURT and Ranger School and follows on by spending some time with 1st Batt during their training cycle.  Getting there is the easy part.  Staying is a hell of a lot harder, standards are high and they are maintained. 

OttoRommel
OttoRommel 5pts

Thank you for writing this.  I watched that Discovery Channel show and couldn't understand how the class was nearly intact half way through the show.  By the end when they gave the graduation numbers, I did a quick calculation and went WTF?  80%?  Something's not right.  There's no statistical way a class should be able to graduate 80%. 

 

I feel for the real Rangers who get stuck with the PFC As.  The idiots at the top are oblivious to the laws of unintended consequences.  If the reduction of standards causes RASP to get a reputation as not a big deal, it will do two things, send the best and the brightest elsewhere and decrease the operational capacity of the Rangers over time until they are not capable of completing the mission requirements.

 

My father-in-law retired from the AF as a Lt. Col. and his son joked at the retirement party that he didn't play enough golf.  I think we need more guys with good heads on their shoulders taking up golf so the upper ranks aren't filled with with people unable or incapable of doing the right thing when politicians say 'make these numbers look better'.

RangerSpike175
RangerSpike175 5pts

I was in RIP Class (as the class leader) 12-87 (August). We started with 56 students, and by day three, only three (to include myself) had passed all tasks (the road march was conducted on a brutally hot and humid day; even though we began movement at 0300 Hours). We eventually graduated 12. Standards should be upheld. Those who can't pass muster, should move on to an assignment that isn't as demanding. Very simple concept, that is understood by all. Well, most of us anyway.

michaelbdasilva
michaelbdasilva 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @JackMurphyRGR @BrandonWebb .    i was just sitting here thinking ( a new experience for me ) and i was thinking thoughts about all the dudes who got so bent out of shape with the post on SOFREP PERTAINING TO SLIPPING STANDARDS. I must just say that many of those who criticize the rangers selection course and the quality of the soldiers being turned out obviously never cast there minds back to the American military in the 80`s? The men being turned out since old uncle Saddam decided to visit his neighbours and "borrow" a couple million barrels of oil. The gulf war amped up the discipline and quality of people serving in the military ten fold in my opinion compared to the 80`s soldiers. The generation being sent to Afghanistan are way better prepared, disciplined and motivated in comparison to those of the same units in the 80`s. The south african military has undergone the same transition in reverse. we were at our peak in the 80`s and at the turn of the 1990`s we started slip sliding away into a discombobulated fuck up inside a bubble. The American soldier of today is without a doubt the most disciplined proficient killing machine that the armed forces have ever turned out. . Yet there were so many dudes barking madly at each other and shitting on each others door steps about whose point of view is better and whose team is superior. just a brain fart.

HugeFan
HugeFan moderator 5pts

 @michaelbdasilva  @JackMurphyRGR  @BrandonWebb Yeah, well that was one pretty awesome piece of cerebral flatulence! My Grandfather (the O-5) retired in '78 and was very concerned with the state of readiness that the military was in at the time of his departure. He felt that discipline was in fact sliding across the board. Which isn't to say that there were zero good soldiers, airmen, Marines, or sailors coming out but that the whole infrastructure seemed become lackadaisical and so it was a 'shit rolling down hill' scenario. Apathy is a cancer, that only spreads.

Jim_Bodor
Jim_Bodor 5pts

I just recently found out that a RASP class back in early June graduated with about 114 candidates, its weird reading about the high attrition rate in Dick Couch's "Sua Sponte" then hearing about stuff like that.

DesignatedDiver
DesignatedDiver 5pts

Yikes. This is disheartening. RIP Class 12-98: 129 at the beginning...30 made it to building 4 for the ceremony. 31 of us got on the bus for graduation and it went from the side of the RIP building to the Sightseeing road Stop sign. One of the RIP instructors told the bus driver to open the door and he then called out one of my fellow RIP-mates and told him to head back to the RIP building and pack his crap, he was booted. No joke, that dude was 2-3 seconds late to the recall formation the evening prior where there were no Cadre around (little did we know, they were watching us from up on the 3rd floor). That dude was late because his mother was flying in from Guam to his graduation and he was on the phone with her, giving her the poop for the next day. He was late to our 2nd to last formation. Brutal. 4 of us went from the class to the same company in 2/75. 1 got RFS'd in a month, another chaptered out after 5-6 months. Me and the other guy went on to have a good time in Battalion. Crazy days. 

Lyons092
Lyons092 5pts

@JackMurphyRGR Very interesting read, do you think standards are going to continue to drop as we get closer to pulling out?

JackMurphyRGR
JackMurphyRGR 5pts

@Lyons092 I would actually expect them to rise as the number of deployments decreases.

Lyons092
Lyons092 5pts

@JackMurphyRGR One can only hope. Great stuff, I always look forward to reading it!

Soviet
Soviet 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

I'm in a Special Counter-Terrorist unit, I'm a Special Forces Soldier in Peruvian Army. To join the unit you just have to WANT it, it doesn't care if you are a junkie or if you moke pot or if you are a robber, etc. You will learn everything about Special Operations, you just have to WANT it, that's all. This is our reality. I'm too disappointed more than you all. I hope this never happens in U.S. Army.

 

PD: I would like to see something about the French Foreign Legion or about Fuerzas Comando.

 

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-LohMcrXWSds/T9pulZitTRI/AAAAAAAABOw/-ziS1Y47ZHI/s1600/392408_349667655106212_1795124260_n.jpg

JackMurphyRGR
JackMurphyRGR moderator 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Soviet You are a Peruvian Counter-Terrorist Special Forces Soldier who goes by the handle "Soviet"?  Haven't you guys had some problems with Sendero Luminoso?

Soviet
Soviet 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @JackMurphyRGR Yeah, Still have  problems with them. Let me explain... I like Soviet Union's history and Military History in general. On the other hand, if you are a communist, there's no problem; the problem is when you kill people. No, I'm not communist.

HugeFan
HugeFan moderator 5pts

 @chrishutch13  @Soviet You'll find that save for the overbearing diplomacy of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth in its dealings with Aleksander Nevski (Alexander Nevsky) and his court in the 13th century, that the realtionship between Russia and Poland has been fairly lopsided throughout history.

Soviet
Soviet 5pts

 @FutureJarHead First of all, in the Army no one will tell you something about him-Most people in the Army are ignorants(I'm too happy to talk with people like you all, I'm going to cry! ;(  )-. Well, Hernando de Soto = Amazing person what more could I tell you? And He had a little bit problem with Mario Vargas Llosa, Nobel Prize in Literature and ex-presidential candidate.

 

Well, most soldiers has already forgotten about who is Sendoro Luminoso or who was MRTA...lol

FutureJarHead
FutureJarHead 5pts

 @Soviet

 

What's your opinion of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hernando_de_Soto_Polar ?

 

I've always wondered how this guy is viewed by his countrymen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6OSHJr6Thg

 

And, most importantly, what is up with hot Peruvian (or Brazilian) Japanese chicks who work in bars all over Japan? Forget about CT, you guys should be prioritizing getting these hot girls to stay in South America and not leave for Japan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycfOsJxeOTg

chrishutch13
chrishutch13 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Soviet

Only Soviet, or Muscovy and Tsarist Russian military history as well? They have a very interesting history. I moved to Poland in 2003 because I used to follow Russian history a lot but then through it became sympathetic to Poland and started to follow theirs much more about 10 years ago.  They have an amazingly interesting history too. I'm a bit less tolerant of communism. Though there's been some amazing progress since I've lived in Poland, I can still see remnants of it in the mindset. It's hard for me to see how it (true communism, not what some of my fellow Americans call Democratic Party policies) can lead to anything but something bad. Regarding the French Foreign Legion, I just recently finished "The Making of a French Legionnaire" by Bill Parris. Not bad. I've seen it's been criticized a little because of not so much action and more on the training but I thought it was good. I guess it was more on him and what he was going through.

DropTheHammer
DropTheHammer 5pts

Lets be real here for all of us who know it and live or have lived the life we all know we were the last hard class! and if you don't know what that means then sign up and i bet you will figure it out. but i know that every one i have worked with and know thinks the standards have dropped after they got done with anything. but i do know that ranger reg. is a lot more relaxed now and a lot more professional probably do to the mission set and op tempo. but the standard is still enforced when you get to battalion and if you don't meet it you are out.

Connor31
Connor31 5pts

What happened to the Regiment's Facebook page? I can't  find it.

chrishutch13
chrishutch13 5pts

 @Connor31

 I just tried... it's not coming up for me either.

LaRoux
LaRoux 5pts

 @chrishutch13  @Connor31 Yea its gone. WTF?

Connor31
Connor31 5pts

 @BrandonWebb  @JackMurphyRGR  @LaRoux  @chrishutch13 It seems the Facebook Boogeyman failed, the page is back up.

BrandonWebb
BrandonWebb moderator 5pts

 @JackMurphyRGR  @LaRoux  @chrishutch13  @Connor31 The Facebook boogy man got them.

JackMurphyRGR
JackMurphyRGR moderator 5pts

 @LaRoux  @chrishutch13  @Connor31 Me thinks they are re-evaluating their PAO strategy.

Connor31
Connor31 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

If any Ranger is feeling embarrassed due to the show, here's something that will help.

 

http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/2012/07/12/2117718/four-rangers-cited-for-actions.html

http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/2012/07/12/2118333/two-rangers-awarded-silver-stars.html

cottrgm
cottrgm 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

I feel as Ranger Regiment should be for prior enlisted, recruiting out of Ranger School, instead of recruiting straight out of Sand Hill. Let the privates have "Big" Army experience, let the weak ones get broke off, shit bags become identified and then fight for slots to Ranger School.

future ranger stud
future ranger stud 5pts

 @cottrgm dont agree, they need soldiers and the way to do it is to have a contract like the 11x option 40, they just need to open up another battalion and train them for like 6 months before being deployed, its crap i mean you get 8 weeks of training and you are deployed instantly with like 2 weeks to settle in the battalion, RASP is suppose to be alot harder then ranger school and rangers who pass RASP normally pass Ranger School as if it was cake, but after i saw this show i am very dissapointed.

DropTheHammer
DropTheHammer 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @cottrgm being from regiment i think recruiting from the big army first is a bad idea we have a higher failure rate of people coming from there then any where. being in the big army just creates bad habits and then they bring them to regiment and cant shake them. for the most part the best rangers came out of basic and have no other training but from us. its like a lump of clay you can mold and make into what you need and whats expected people from the big army most of the time just cant grasp things and get used to the speed of things. sorry but i would have to say you are way off on that thought process

 

DropTheHammer
DropTheHammer 5pts

 @cottrgm for the guy who wanted to see the numbers i am not sure but i do know what they are in my plt and company i came at a time they passed a lot of people to fill slots and out of the 17 people there are like 9 of us left and out of the maybe 9 ncos in the last 4 years from the regular army and 2 pvt's there are 2 nco's still there and well 3 but he is getting sent out the other 2 are being moved because they always mess up and they want to get new guys in there so they are sending them to do other things in battalion one of the pvt did good and is now a team leader the other has a week heart and is in the middle of getting rfs'd. as for officers ya the serve in the regular army they have to take command some where first and the come to us as 1st LT (P) and are in the process of getting the O-3 and even at that they as still cherry and have a huge learning curve that the PSG has to help them with. Hell I have had 4 new PL's in the last 4 years to. no one is saying the regular army cant come and succeed im just saying its harder.

Iassen Donov
Iassen Donov 5pts

 @DropTheHammer  @cottrgm Hammer is right. The Regiment's worse enlisted infantry soldiers are "imports" from other units.

chrishutch13
chrishutch13 5pts

 @Canopylight

 HaHaHa... I sure hope he wasn't wasn't trying to keep that a secret. But yep, he was a 71L. I'm not sure if he was actually ever in the S1 though, we were with the Regimental Comptroller in the S4. By the time I got there, he was shortly out of Ranger School and ready to go infantry though. He was my first leader and gave me my foundation on being a Ranger, I have good memories of him. If you have contact with him please tell Ranger Hutchinson said hello. 

Canopylight
Canopylight 5pts

 @chrishutch13  @Iassen Donov  @OldRGR  @DropTheHammer  @cottrgm  @majrod I didn't know 1SG Pops started as a S-1 guy. Great Ranger and great leader.

chrishutch13
chrishutch13 5pts

 @Iassen Donov@OldRGR @DropTheHammer @cottrgm @majrod Let me give my opinion about infantry. I definitely don't think there couldn't be some good "imports" so they shouldn't be disallowed or anything but personally I am always thinking about costs. I wonder what it cost to recruit Army-wide. From what I saw in the mid-nineties, I'd have to say that Iassen is right. I personally don't remember many enlisted guys who were "imports" but I had a lot of 11B Ranger buddies and quite a few neighbors who were 11B from other units I spoke with often and they were night and day. A completely different level and I can definitely imagine them not lasting long even if they made it past RIP/ROP/RASP. That's nothing against a lot of them, and it's very anecdotal, but I can see it for sure, especially once reaching NCO level. So, I do wonder about the cost vs. the return. I saw a lot of things we were doing that when actually analyzed turned out not to be worth the cost. With all that said, let's not get too crazy with this... Matt Eversmann was an "import" if I recall correctly.

 

I was an "import" but I wasn't infantry, I was an accountant. I filled the one 73D slot in the Regiment. I wasn't recruited in any way though. I was a guy with less than a year at the finance battalion at Ft. Bliss who realized he made a mistake choosing an MOS that wasn't so exciting and called Ranger Branch. I didn't know about it through any recruitment effort though, I only knew about it because my squad leader had served there 5-6 years earlier. I was told that besides one 73C (my squad leader) the slot usually wasn't even filled by a finance guy and that I was the only actual 73D who ever volunteered so they wanted to know if I was sure. I said I was and had orders for jump school and RIP within a week. There was a personnel guy filling the slot when another guy and I finished RIP and went to the comptroller's office. He (SGT Pospisil at the time) reclassed to 11B shortly after and I hear he's now 1SG Pospisil at 1/75.

 

Anyway, I bring all that up because the topic of recruitment is interesting to me, actually the topic of how effectively our money is being spent is interesting to me. What is the Regiment doing to recruit Army-wide? How much does it cost? Is it better spent going towards new recruits? And I guess, for me, it seems we come back around to what started all this discussion... the program on Discovery and how we feel people perceive the 75th RGR RGT following it. I watch videos on YouTube every once in a while about various special ops units around the world and always kick myself when I start reading the comments because I think they are usually ridiculous and I ask myself where are the quiet professionals, then I realize most of them are really young who don't really have a clue. But if a lot of us are saying the best Batt Boys are new recruits maybe their perception is something to take into consideration. Young boys perception of the program is more important to me than my perception or fellow Rangers.   

 

cottrgm
cottrgm 5pts

 @DropTheHammer I hear what you are saying and that policy does make sense when you consider no other experiences or poor "Big Army" habits. When I left Sand Hill, there were people who got the RASP contracts that did not deserve them, and not so shockingly, they were weeded out in Airborne Hold or pre-RASP. I believe the drill sergeants on Sand Hill could and should do a better job of pre-screening those who they choose for the RASP contracts. That should tighten the shot group on the quality of the RASP candidate early on.

majrod
majrod 5pts

 @DropTheHammer Reg't does a lot of recruiting across the Army.  Do you have some visibility on the stats or is your experience anecdotal?  A wide net ensures a large group from which to select the best. 

DropTheHammer
DropTheHammer 5pts

 @Skwirrlmaster  @JackMurphyRGR  @Canopylight so what i am getting from this is you failed out of selection have an alright pt score and are in the regular army with some guys from batt. who say they they got tired of it and got out. hell i  saw you say one one left after 3 deployments. well i look at it this way if you got kicked out for being a piece of shit would you go to your new unit and say that or would you make up a story of why you left. like every one was saying its harder to stay there then people really think. not to mention hell we wont even seed guys to school most of the time unless the get a 300 on there pt score. and until you pass school you are still a privet. you will never get rank in our unit. and if  those guys score that low on a pt test i mean i get a 320-325 and that's average where i am at just to give you a heads up.

DropTheHammer
DropTheHammer 5pts

 @majrod   all i am saying is we have seen more success training up new privets then NCO's that doesn't mean there are not some guys who come in as NCO's who go on to do great things like 1SGT POPS. just saying its harder to train some of them and harder to RFS NCO's who fail but at the end of the day you ether have it in you or you don't

Canopylight
Canopylight 5pts

 @Skwirrlmaster  @JackMurphyRGR I hate to tell you, but Rangers don't go run around yelling Hooah or have that attitude, so it doesn't surprise me that some RFS pacs didn't have the attitude either.

JackMurphyRGR
JackMurphyRGR moderator 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Erik L  @Skwirrlmaster Whoa, Erik, but that negates what some RFS'ed Rangers working out at the Claymore Range for 1/29 say!

Erik L
Erik L 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Skwirrlmaster I think you would be very suprised at what a Ranger squad is capable of, especially in comparison to CIF. "Might makes Right" certainly would make sense for the typical Ranger stereo type, but surreptitiously entering a building through 3 different breach points and literally waking up the guys were going after would negate that concept.

 

Look at it this way: Why is it that Rangers are routinely asked to go on the high profile missions instead of CIF? I'll give you a hint, it isn't political and has a lot to do with proven effectiveness on target.

 

Skwirrlmaster
Skwirrlmaster 5pts

And I just spelled hear as here...  I really need to proof-read when I post.

Skwirrlmaster
Skwirrlmaster 5pts

 @Canopylight  @JackMurphyRGR They were just for the most part pretty much done with the Army.  Had their fill and were getting out.  Didn't like Battalion.  HATED 1/29 but it was either SF or civvy.  Most went civvy.

Skwirrlmaster
Skwirrlmaster 5pts

 @Canopylight  @JackMurphyRGR  Not really family problems that I can think of aside from Mike who's **** of an ex-wife robbed him blind while he was in Ranger school before running off.  On a slightly amusing but disturbing aside, USAA kept putting her back on his accounts after they divorced.  There was at least 3 or 4 occasions he had to go into the bank FUMING because she was back on his account again.  Luckily she never knew it or she'd have probably cashed him out again.It was that mostly everybody that came from Batt to A Co. 1/29 and were friends of mine just fit that profile of "NOT ARMY".  All good dudes who did their job and were good at it, but they didn't have the "Hooah" attitude at all.  1 in particular would say "Errp" in lieu of that stupid word no matter who was around to here him sounding off differently.

Canopylight
Canopylight 5pts

 @Skwirrlmaster  @JackMurphyRGR 

Did they have family problems? A lot of RFS pacs go to do very well in the regular Army. Hell my good buddy from basic who failed RIP made E-5 before I did as well as got sniper school. He's over in Italy having a good ass time.

Skwirrlmaster
Skwirrlmaster 5pts

 @JackMurphyRGR  @Canopylight So yah it was a non-deploying gig.

Skwirrlmaster
Skwirrlmaster 5pts

 @JackMurphyRGR  @Canopylight Lastly - I was never at 3RD ID.  None of these guys were.  We were in a TRADOC unit that worked for CERDEC and in some cases, in conjunction with folks from the little army to evaluate prototypes in and brief brass.

JackMurphyRGR
JackMurphyRGR moderator 5pts

 @Skwirrlmaster  @Canopylight Dully noted.

Skwirrlmaster
Skwirrlmaster 5pts

 @JackMurphyRGR  @Canopylight Ugh first paragraph should read "Isn't that the stupid shit that...  group [?]  (which..."

Skwirrlmaster
Skwirrlmaster 5pts

 @JackMurphyRGR   @Canopylight   And I certainly respect your guys opinion of battalion, particularly because of your honesty.   I know enough guys that were from 82nd as well to agree that there would have been some shit given to somebody leaving the unit, even for group.  That's the stupid shit that funneled guys like you away from big army to group (which as you also mentioned is now turning into Little, Big army.) 

 

The original topic here was just the argument over who you'd rather have the CIF team or a Ranger squad.  Just my opinion I'd rather have individuals like yourself who have seen it and done it and are smart enough to think their way through and around problems rather than a Ranger squad and the absolute might makes right approach.  Just think CIF brings more to the table. 

 

Now as to what you were saying CanopyLight about my little detail work at SFARTAETC...  It's possible I just had a selection bias.  Two of the details that stick out to me was during one of their force on force the first guy through the door of our room tagged a guy twice in the head through a 1 to 2 inch gap between the desks he was using for cover, while on the move, from about 20 feet away.  He took less than a second to acquire a target in cover and put 2 simunitions in a 1 inch diameter circle.  Great shooting.  Earlier that day they had watched as the guys cleared a building, (there is an identical copy on Fort Benning), that has 2 floors, a basement and an attic and tons of cubby holes.  The building is big.  2 Teams blew the wooden barricaded doors erected and cleared it live shooting into portable traps, in right around 90 seconds to 2 minutes, (not to include the attic which requires a boost to reach).  It was very, very impressive.  It was seriously as smooth as it could possibly be done.  But as something I never thought of, those could have been instructors.  So in that regard I will defer to you gentlemen and bid you a good day.  This wasn't meant to turn into some stupid pissing contest.  I felt you were putting down some very good soldiers (particularly 2 of my close friends) that fit the "laid back type" that you said above.  With very few exceptions the guys I mentioned all conform to that to a T.

Erik L
Erik L 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @JackMurphyRGR

 I can only speak from my personal experience of course, it was just the only guys we ever saw go to SFAS were the ones getting RFS'd (not all of the RFS's did this of course). Pretty much everyone else who left either ETS'd, went to OCS, or went to an SMU. I can see where guys at 3/75 would consider SFAS more just b/c of the fact I'm sure alot of guys just wanted to get out of benning/columbus and away from regiments flag pole.

Canopylight
Canopylight 5pts

 @JackMurphyRGR  @Erik L  @Skwirrlmaster Yep, with the sleeves rolled up just once so you could get away with it. Battalion would be such a better place if it wasn't for the random guys with hard-ons for 670-1.That and wearing civvies at work. I always tried to wear civvies as long as I could in the squad cages.

JackMurphyRGR
JackMurphyRGR moderator 5pts

 @Canopylight  @Erik L  @Skwirrlmaster Haha!  Yeah, that is pretty much a good description of me.  Tabbed Corporal, smoked cigars on the EIB site, hands in pockets, and PC kicked back on my head.  The "hardcores" would have smoke shooting out of their ears just looking at me.  Hilarious!

Canopylight
Canopylight 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @JackMurphyRGR  @Erik L  @Skwirrlmaster Yeah definitely good dudes leave for SFAS. To me most of them were the laidback types that Battalion culture kind of drove them crazy, but they didn't have the experience or ability to make it to JSOC and didn't want to get out of the Army. They weren't crazy numerous though. Quite a few SF guys are Rangers with DUIs as well.

JackMurphyRGR
JackMurphyRGR moderator 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Erik L  @Skwirrlmaster  @Canopylight I'm not sure how accurate that is either.  I ran into one RFS dude in SFAS but the other guys from the 75th were good dudes including our battalion medic who definitely had his shit together.  I also ran into a kid in SFAS who quit during RIP hold.  Needless to say, he quit SFAS as well.  Other guys I know from 3/75 who went to and graduated SFAS included our E-5 FO and another 11B from my platoon who ended up in the 7th Group CIF.

Canopylight
Canopylight 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Skwirrlmaster  @JackMurphyRGR Buddy, you still don't know what you're talking about. I know E-6s that were RFSed. Just because a guy has been around in Battalion for a second doesn't mean he wasn't RFSed. You can keep believing what you want, but nobody leaves Battalion for a regular Army unit. I knew too many guys put in SF packets and succeed to think we just kick these guys to the curb and send them to leg land. Not to mention not many guys put in SF packets. A lot of guys had an attitude of JSOC or bust. If you're in good standing, you can go to selection. Will you get crap for it and do a bunch of CQ and staff duty? Maybe, but that's pretty standard for anybody not going to be with the unit much longer. I dealt with this when I ETSed. Hell, I'm almost ashamed to admit this, but I know two guys to fail SFAS(landnav) and are still at 1/75. If anything they should have been RFSed, but it's not standard to RFS people for failing other's selections. We definitely don't RFS guys for attempting other's selections.

 

Like I said, I ETSed because I was tired of Battalion's(or really the Army's) crap. I looked hard at SFAS and mentioned it to both my SL and PSG and didn't get crap for it. In the end, I decided SF probably wasn't a much better place for what I was looking for. At least not AD. I never said nobody left Battalion. I just said nobody leaves Battalion for a leg unit. I knew life sucked at Battalion, but I knew life sucked even more in leg land. My leaders let me grow out my hair, I wore civvie boots, got great equipment, had our own gym, went on secret squirrel missions, got better training, and no amount of getting bravoed at 2am or dealing with a shitty CSM was going to make me give that up. More than that, I got 300+ on the PT test, a 129 GT score and I was just an average Ranger. I knew UPenn grads, our medic went on to Columbia(Jack has heard of him), guys that could run sub 10min 2 milers, guys that would move on to Delta and other super secret squirrel units. These were the caliber of men I served with and I was never going to leave that for 3rd ID and nobody I know in good standing would do it either without some extenuating circumstances like going to a non-deploying unit because of family difficulties or such.

 

I'll tell you the kicker of all this 'I'm sick of Battalion.' There's places within Battalion that you don't have to deal with a lot the BS. A lot of guys go to SNOT, dogs, TSE, and Recce to take a break from the line. I'm sorry you hanged out with a bunch of burnt out guys from Battalion, but like Jack said, you're off base.

Erik L
Erik L 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Skwirrlmaster  @JackMurphyRGR  @Canopylight

 It's funny you say all these guys weren't RFS'd yet left batt. with the intention of going to SF selection.... Of my 5 years in batt., I know of only one Ranger who went to SF that wasn't RFS'd. Most of the guys we RFS'd...that was the first thing they did was drop an SFAS packet b/c they didn't want to go to the big army. And guess what? Every one of them was selected, except one who was a 42A from S-1. I just don't believe that there were all these guys leaving batt. with the intention of going SF, very few squared away dudes do that in the 75th (Jack being one of them, not picking on you bro!). Now, if they were all RFS pax that were going to SFAS, then I believe that. This is relevent to the Post 9/11 Regiment, I know it was much more common to go SF back in the 80's and 90's for some of you older Rangers on here!

 

 

JackMurphyRGR
JackMurphyRGR moderator 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Skwirrlmaster  @Canopylight Where to begin...  Let's start by setting your stellar PT score aside.  No one is interested in that.  Next, it is true that a lot of Rangers who decide to go to SFAS get ostracized, but many do not.  My direct first hand experience strongly contradicts your second hand information based on what RFS'ed Rangers had to tell you.  Institutions unfortunately do this at times in order to protect themselves.  It would be the same for an 82nd Airborne PL who wanted to go to RASP 2 (or ROP before that) so this isn't something unique to the 75th.  Life is hard at Battalion, it isn't for everyone.  After one enlistment there I became frustrated in many ways myself.  I didn't see myself spending the next four years yelling at some Private because he was wearing the wrong type of belt, that just didn't interest me.  But there is a lot more to the 75th than that.  When I went to SFAS I came back and resumed my Team Leader position in 3/75 all the way until my platoon deployed to Afghanistan and my Q-Course date came up.  I even pushed back my Q-Course date once so that I could stay and train with my platoon at Benning.  Your opinions about the Regiment are off base and come from poor sources if you ask me.

Skwirrlmaster
Skwirrlmaster 5pts

 @JackMurphyRGR  @Canopylight  I'm not here to get into a pissing contest.  My credentials - I was an X-ray 24 day non August-Nov 05 most likely for getting into an argument during team week, who 2 years later ruptured a disc in my lower back and my career was over with that.  Before my injury, at my shit Fort Benning unit, I'd push upwards of 90 and run around a 12:45-13:00 most of the time and sit-ups would keep me from touching a 300.  After, I was still mostly a stud even when broken, though I couldn't carry a ruck or even do sit-ups anymore.  So I'm not saying any of the guys that came over were fat, even though I could hang with them.  They were generally young guys in better shape than probably 3/4s of your airborne troops.As I said most of the guys I knew planned ETS'ing when I was at Fort Benning.  Before that I met guys who had been tabbed NCO's in Battalion prior service and came back in on the X-Ray program to go to group.  They liked Battalion but didn't want that anymore.  I met guys at Selection that were currently in Battalion and an instructor in 6th RTB that didn't want to be there anymore.  And then when I got to my long-term, big army home, the guys that came through were mostly E-4's that didn't want to be there anymore. 

 

2 were E-3's coming from 1st.  They ETS'd.  There were 2 E-4s from 1st at different times, 1 tabbed and 1 not tabbed.  The tabbed one came over shortly before I ETS'd and planned to go to group because he'd been waiting too long on a promotion.  The other ETS'd and pretty thoroughly hated the Army.  There were 2 guys from 2nd, one I didn't know well who I honestly don't remember his rank at all, he was in our rinky dink attachment platoon and the other was a guy who had ETS'd from Batt, eventually changed his mind on civilian life and came back in as a tabbed E-5 and got stuck at our unit.  Good guy, good soldier and liked battalion but didn't want go back.

 

Most of the guys were from 3rd.  Two were there before I got there.  1 was my first squad leader, Kyle.  He left battalion as a tabbed E-4 because his mindset is completely different from the Battalion ideal, (he never wore his wings or even his Ranger tab at our unit unless he was in dress), made his E-5 and re-upped with the intention of going to Selection...  then got drill orders.  He signed a dec statement and spent his time there til he ETS'd.  He was a hell of a good soldier and the army wasted that.  The other I believe had gotten into some legitimate trouble and gotten tossed, he spent his time there til ETS.  My buddy Rik left because he didn't want it anymore as a tabbed E-4, initially intending to go to Selection, changed his mind and spent his time at our unit til ETS. 

 

My buddy Mike, who was the most spartan of all of them, had a bizarre set of circumstances surrounding his time there, including a wife that stole every dime he had accumulated during his deployments while he was in Ranger school.  So he got day-1 recycled from Florida and he came home to borrowing dimes to buy Ramen.  He went back through and he got day one'd a SECOND time from Florida and just didn't care about being in Battalion enough to go back through a 3rd time.  After a 12-18 month stint at our unit, during which time he won the Fort Benning combatives tournament at LW, and then a shit stint recruiting in Philly, he's most of the way through the Q.  So he got RFS'd but he was better than most of the guys that didn't...  Strange.

 

Then there were all the kids who really did leave or get RFS'd shortly after arriving there which numbered around 4 or 5.  One later changed his mind, went back through this new RASP course and is currently in 1st.  His FB post was the one that actually linked me to this article.  Lastly there was a hyper active nasty girl who went active, came to our unit then decided to go over to Battalion.  To the best of my knowledge he's still in 2nd. 

 

But my point IS AND REMAINS -Battalion isn't some place that's so amazing no one wants to leave.  A lot of people there are not impressed with the culture once they've been inside, aside from all the fun had with Mary the Rangerette.  Run fast, think slow and if you can, use a sledgehammer to kill a fly.  If you decide you want to advance your career and leave behind that mindset by going to SF, all you'll run into is people trying to shit on you.

majrod
majrod 5pts

 @JackMurphyRGR

 Lot of blue on blue going on here.

OldRGR
OldRGR 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Canopylight  @Skwirrlmaster Canopylight we know what the deal is.  I've kind of held my fire on this individual as well as a few others being this is a different animal than say a Ranger forum.  But that being said listen up Skwirrlmaster!  I really don't give a flying fuck what you choose to beleive about Rangers.  But guys who get tired of batt and have done thier time (used to be 18 months) then they could choose to stay or leave.  If they want to move on they would get sent to airborne outfits and usually have a choice.  Some would leave to go to Italy or Hawaii.  They do not go to leg land.  The ones who get RFS'd go to leg land.  I don't give a shit what the individuals say about how they got there.  Jack has written about fat non-PT guys in SF in the past as have many others.  Not all SF guys are that way, but a lot are.  Save your love feast for SF.  Working at or supporting a SF school house does not give you insight into a damn thing.  Take your ass down to JRTC a work as OPFOR there and then and only then will you be able to see a comparison in all SOF units performing actual mission, but even then you can not compare them because each unit has a specific mission task they are performing as part of a larger mission.

 

I don't know about today, but I'm betting it has not changed, there is no way in hell someone could be in batt for one much less two years and be an E-3.  I do know of some guys in my day who were E-4 with two years in because they did not want to go to Ranger School because they were ETSing from the Army at the end of their contract (2-3 yr enlistments).  One even has a book out called Shadow Warriors.  They are called tabless bitches, but make no mistakes they are Rangers.

 

During the  late mid-1970s there was a combind unit of Rangers and SF called Blue Light that was a CT unit at the same time SFOD-D was being talked about and created, with SFOD-D getting the nod and Blue Light was disbanded.  Stop reading Wikipedia about Rangers or listen to people who've been RFS'd out.

JackMurphyRGR
JackMurphyRGR moderator 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Canopylight  @Skwirrlmaster Concur.  I have no idea what Skwirrlmaster is talking about.

Canopylight
Canopylight 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Skwirrlmaster Buddy I was in 1/75. You act like I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about. I sit here and I read your crap and I take it you never actually made it through the Q(maybe you did let me know your credentials). The reason I say this is you talk about how great SF guys are at PT and all I hear about SF cadre from my buddies that are in or graduated the Q is that they are fat and suck at PT. I'm sorry. I hate to tell you, but our best PT guys aren't leaving Battalion for some leg unit. They're sticking around and going on to units like Delta.

 

You can believe all you want that these guys in your leg unit were sick of Batt and got the shitty end of the stick, but I'll guarantee almost all of them got RFSed to be where they are. The fact that they were RFS pacs(ie we didn't want them) and still better at PT than you should say something. Anybody sick of Batt is going to the Q, JSOC or ETSing. They aren't leaving for some regular Army unit. I know this for a fact. It still stands 50% of RIP graduates were RFS within a year. More after that. I wasn't adding non-RFS(ie I got sick of Batt) to the attrition.

 

As for SFARTAETC, it's a school house, so you were either playing OPFOR for students who probably wouldn't be that impressive or you were playing OPFOR for instructors who run through that shoothouse all the time. It still stands you've never seen a Ranger squad do a hit and have no fucking idea what the fuck you are talking about.

Skwirrlmaster
Skwirrlmaster 5pts

Who said within a year?  More than half of these guys were in Battalion for 2+ years with 2 or 3 deployments under their belt. Most got sick of the Army itself, some wanted to go to the Q.  My Lt was an E-5 in Batt who then went to West Point and came back in.  More than a couple were tabbed.  You can believe that nobody gets sick of Battalion but even one of their top non-NCO's over at 3rd got sick of it.  He was the Fort Benning LW Champion in 07 or 08, (don't remember which), and was rivals with Lacerda and Stelly for best combatives guy over there (RIP).  See my response below just for the level of skill difference I saw at SFARTAETC versus what the Batt boys brought to the fight.  Though I do understand your comment about an X-ray with no deployments ending up on a CIF team, Your ranger squad is gonna feature an E-3 private or two as well.

Skwirrlmaster
Skwirrlmaster 5pts

 @JackMurphyRGR   First, let me preface my opinion by pointing out I was pretty damn good at my job but just ended up in Big Army working with Natick and Cerdec...  Almost all my boys at my old unit were 3rd or 1st Batt guys that got sick of Battalion and were planning on leaving the Army, with two exceptions for guys that wanted to go to group.  So when they left Batt they got punished by getting sent to us, because between our OpTempo, our promotion-only minded, bootlicking COs; it being Tradoc, and more!... IT SUCKED.  The guys at 3rd Batt knew it sucked and it was a running joke with them amongst people that would leave to stick them with us.  Just another example...  There was a sniper instructor that pissed off the Brigade Commander...   So he sent him to our company.  Yah.  Like that. 

 

But even having been at this ridiculously big-army minded unit, with very poor physical training, ("If you want to get in shape men that's on you, PT is for maintenance" Then command drags everyone down to the Mech PSG's standard - seriously WTF), I wasn't far off their physical abilities when they would arrive.  I did work out on my own and was always a 285+ guy, so I mean that's not a huge knock on them but just to say I never saw a near 400 manimal like my old SOPC TACs that blew me away and made me say holy crap.  It was in general E-3s and E-4s clocking around 280-290 a 300 sprinkled in with 1 guy, (now one of my best friends), coming in around 350.  

And out of the 15 or so Batt boys that I worked with in my career, only 1 could outshoot me, and that was stress shoot only, (the 350 who is one of the guys in the Q right now).  Now, (to thump my own chest), as far above the standard as I could shoot, there was just NO comparison between myself and the kind of ability that I saw when I did a little role play as OPFOR over at SFARTAETC.  The teams that used to come kick our asses were SCARY good.  Granted, it's possible none of those guys even went to CIF teams.  They could have been there from RRD, DEVGRU or CAG, or even maybe some boys from the Farm, but just from the sheer amount of people I'd guess at least half that class had to be regular USASOC employees.  That was just my experience there.  Watching those guys operate was truly impressive...  I'd like to give more examples but that really wouldn't be kosher. 

JackMurphyRGR
JackMurphyRGR moderator 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Skwirrlmaster  @OldRGR  @majrod It is an interesting subject.  I feel like I can't get into all of it because of OPSEC but in my opinion, I would take a Ranger Platoon over a CIF team.  I know there are some hurt feelings over that but Rangers have been operating at a higher level for a while now.  There are some great guys on the CIF, but I saw my share of "interesting" personalities as well.  When I went to SFAUCC we had a bunch of CIF guys teaching the course.  One of the instructors had an AD the first day out at the range.  We took it from there...  Maybe I'm prejudiced against them, but I'd welcome positive opinions about the CIF as well.  I was of the opinion that SF does unconventional warfare and that if you want to do DA than go to selection and call it good.

Canopylight
Canopylight 5pts

 @Skwirrlmaster  @OldRGR  @majrod 50% of guys getting RFS within a year and more after that is not due to guys being sick of Battalion. A lot of guys ETSing or leaving for the Q is an indication of that though, but this isn't the attrition we are talking about. I mean I ETSed because I was tired of Battalion and I'm pretty Jack left for SF because of this as well. But we were never kicked out. As for your CIF comment, I seen this thrown around a lot as a knock on Battalion, but I'll take a E-3 or E-4 with a deployment or two than some cherry E-5 18X straight out of the Q on a CIF team any day. And yeah it happens. I've also seen SF guys say Rangers would do a shit job doing FID too. Something about a bunch of Privates running around trying to teach soldier skills. Fact is Rangers are doing FID and we've got an ODAs worth of NCOs with countless deployments. Rangers aren't lacking for experience anymore than any other SOF unit.

Skwirrlmaster
Skwirrlmaster 5pts

 @OldRGR  @majrod Regiment has the highest turnover because a lot guys get sick of being in Battalion and all the stupidity that comes with it.  And Regiment is great but if you'd take a take squad of E-3s and E-4s before you'd select a CIF team to do the same work you're biased and/or crazy.

chrishutch13
chrishutch13 5pts

 @majrod

 Out of curiosity Sir, what type of project?

majrod
majrod 5pts

 @OldRGRSF Branch creation had no impact on Ranger Reg't nor does dxing folks.  When an 18 series is separated he goes to either an infantry MOS or something related to his specialty in SF e.g. demo guy can go engineers.

 

Many don't realize there's a synergy between Ranger Regiment and the Infantry.  Beefing up the Rangers doesn't happen in a vacuum.  E.G. when the rangers wanted their own scout dog teams the Army insisted they be MPs.  The Infantry branch got them to be Infantry and resourced it.  That's a small example.  The standing up of an additional company/BN, the STB (there's a lot of grunts in there also), 120% manning. beefed up weapons squads all happen because of a positive relationship between the Infantry and Ranger Reg't.  Those that propose a separate MOS may not be aware of that. 

 

Not dinging the shorter pipeline just saying it may contribute to a higher attrition rate.  Obviously from this article alone (let alone our variors experiences) that all those that finish Ranger Reg't training end up staying there.

 

Not going to get into comparing who's better.  It's a losing discussion whoever wins.  We all have our favorites and our biases.

OldRGR
OldRGR 5pts

@Iassen Donov @majrod @OldRGR yep, that is what I was saying. I just could not put numbers being it has been over 26 years since I was there.

Iassen Donov
Iassen Donov 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @majrod  @OldRGR The Regiment does a lot of big Army recruiting for it's officers and support personnel. If there are roughly 2000 line company (11B) Rangers, I'd say based on my observation/experience with 3/75 that maybe 50 of these guys were from a different infantry unit. The most successful of the infantry imports are usually E4s. 11B NCOs trying to get into Battalion as Team leaders or squad leaders = disaster and they never make it.

 

I'd say out of the support personnel when I was in (before RSTB and ECo had just been stood up) i'd say back then 25-30% of the support personnel were brought in from other units. And officers obviously didn't start their careers in the 75th.

OldRGR
OldRGR 5pts

 @majrod RFS system is one of the big reasons.  Like I said it is far harder to stay there than to get in.  The standards are high and there are adhered to.  Some good people have been lost due to that system as well.

 

I did not say it was a bad deal to draw from the big Army.  Your just better off if you grew up within the Regiment.  Hell of a lot shorter learning curve for the NCO.  Yes it is hatder to get cut from other SOF units that is why the Rangers choose not to change their MOS from 11B in the late-mid-1980s when SF changed from 11B to 18 series.  They wanted to be able to get rid of people who did not need to be there.

 

Why yes their pipeline is shorter than other SOF if you want to put it that way by looking at the number of weeks.  But that is based on their mission profile and their training techniques.  I will take a Ranger squad/chalk over any other SOF unit if I'm going into harms way.  No one else bring as much to the fight as the Rangers.  That is not ego, but has been proven in combat time and time again.  Does not mean the other SOF units are not good, they just have other mission profiles that they train for while the Rangers have a narrower mission profile DA.

 

Yes Rangers have had failures just like everyone else, but they have had far more mission success than failures.  I love my Ranger Regiment and I always will defend my Regiment's honor and great legacy.  The Ranger Regiment is the greatest place to serve, nothing against the other SOF/SF units or CA, but the Regiment is just unique.

majrod
majrod 5pts

 @OldRGRRelax, I'm not the enemy. 

 

That said, there's a big difference between what's expected from a troop and an officer/NCO.  There's no reason to not recruit from the greater Army and let the system work.  Reg't must agree because they do just that though I think by the time one is an NCO there's a HUGE mountain to climb.

 

The reg't has the highest attrition rate?  I'd be interested in the numbers but if it's true the RFS system might be part of it.  It's much harder to get cut from other spec ops teams paperwork wise.  There's also the fact the pipeline is also the shortest.   

 

Every unit has its role.  Most spec ops units draw from their parent branch.  There's no shame in that and it's not such a bad deal. 

 

I did my 20+ (not in the community) but keep business links with Reg't (phenomenal group of Americans).  Did a pretty big project for them last year.  If you visit the new 3/75 HQ you'll see it.

 

 

 

OldRGR
OldRGR 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @majrod Arrogance?!  It has nothing to do with arrogance.  It has to do with what I saw while in.  If you want statistics ask someone within the Regimental HQ for them. The Regiment spends a lot of money recruiting across the Army as you say, well just how many slots do you think they are trying to fill?  Not that many when you are looking at a unit of only around 3,500 men according to the PAO.  Do I think they are wasting money?  No, I do not.   Now there are some great NCOs that grew up in other units that make it through RASP 2 and go to the Regiment and go on to make great Ranger NCOs, but there are a lot that don't make that transition.  The Regiment does things different to put things simply and for a lot of people they want to question why they have to do things that way and end up RFS .

 

Why do you think the Regiment has a high attrition rate?  The highest among all SOF units.  As hard as it is to get into the Regiment it is a lot harder to stay in the Regiment.  In my day the Regiment numbered less than 1,800 men.  Times have changed and all my buddies have since retired so I no longer have any contacts within the Regiment to get more detailed information.  I can only speak to what I saw while there, which is what I did and I even stated it that way as did DropTheHammer.

 

Are you still active duty?  If so submit your packet and experience the Regiment for yourself.  It is worth it and you will find the answer to all you questions that way.

majrod
majrod 5pts

 @OldRGRI say again, Reg't spends a lot of money and does a lot of recruiting acrosss the Army.  Are they wrong?  Wasting their time?

 

Something about anecdotal evidence.  We all have our biases. 

 

Arrogance goes so far.  Audie Murphy would have been a Marine otherwise.

OldRGR
OldRGR 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @majrod  @DropTheHammer DropTheHammer is spot on with his statement.  That has been my experience in the Regiment as well.  And for your earlier comment about officer is correct but I will add that the that the previous command is the same position the 1Lt, Capt. etc will command in the Regt.  The only 2nd Lt that was allowed in the Regiment in the past and I believe it is still that way is if a Batt Boy grow up and becomes and E-5 and then goes to OCS other than that 2nd Lt are not in the Regiment.  Jack can say if that has changed.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts

 @cottrgm

 Problem is you may loose guys to the bullshit after taking the Sandhill Experience in Mother Army before they even get to Harmony Church. The slots for Regiment should be a fight for everyone, survival of the fittest, whether it be an E3 or an O2.

Now in Group I think E4 or above, let them get maturity and time in, FID and other SF activities are a different animal.

majrod
majrod 5pts

 @ArcticWarrior

 FYI, for those that don't know.  Regiment won't accept an officer unless they've already had a successful command.  That goes for LTs, CPTs and LTC's.

cottrgm
cottrgm 5pts

 @ArcticWarrior re: losing guys before Harmony Church, isn't that the point? Save some time as well. Seems to me, if Mother Army breaks you off, you probably aren't ready for Batt. Yes, you'll lose the occasional good one to being over "Big Army", but that won't be the case across the board.

Join the SOFREP Team Room, Support Our Veteran Writing Team
  • Hot Now

  • Latest SOFREP

    • Is Pakistan Heading Towards a Cliff?

      Is Pakistan Heading Towards a Cliff?

      May 20, 2013, 7 Comments
    • And The Hits Just Keep On Comin'

      And The Hits Just Keep On Comin

      May 20, 2013, 12 Comments
    • A Team Effort - Part 1

      A Team Effort – Part 1

      May 19, 2013, 26 Comments
    • In the IDF, 'Lonely Soldier' is a term that describes soldiers serving on active duty who have no family is Israel. These are volunteers that came to serve for 3-5 years. They typically go back to their respective countries upon completion. Most commonly, these are people who immigrated to Israel by themselves. I was one of them. While in Israel, I lived in an apartment building where the majority of people were lonely soldiers. It was located on the outer ring of Jerusalem, surrounded by four Arab villages. My roommates were two recon guys (like me) and one who worked in field intel. All of the other inhabitants were soldiers from various units, with most of them serving a combat role. It was a well known thing, especially to the Arabs in the village. Most of the time we wouldn't be there, but when we were on leave, we would come to the apartment for a little R&R. It was rare that the four of us were there at the same time, but once in a blue moon, it did happen. Each village had, as is customary, its own mosque. When the time for prayer came, the loudspeakers would call out to the faithful. It was OK, we were used to it. However, over the weekend they would make it a point to play the call to prayer very, and I mean VERY, loud. They knew soldiers would be in the building trying to get some sleep - recovering from several weeks in the field. This always annoyed me but there was nothing I could do. On this particular weekend, after an intense seven weeks of non-stop ops, all I wanted was to go to the apartment, sleep, eat, sleep some more and then sleep again. That weekend the four of us were at the apartment and we were all equally tired. We arrived Thursday night and after a small dinner and some beers, we went to sleep. At 0400 we all jumped.... The freaking loudspeakers at all four mosques began their call to prayer at full blast. Fuck.... We spent the remainder of the day trying to rest and every time we would fall asleep, again... The call for prayers, full blast! Over lunch, we all looked at each other and knew this had to stop. We came up with a plan. I know it wasn't nice, but at that point we couldn't care less about political correctness. Here's what we did. After some recon that night, we noticed that the call to prayer wasn't performed by an Imam or some other person with a microphone. It was a tape recorder that used a tape. We figured the four of us, experts in stealthy infils, could sneak in and steal those tapes. However, while we were planning the different infil routes for each village, we all smiled and did something better. We recorded Metallica's 'For Whom the Bell Tolls' on repeat on all four tapes and then waited till midnight. At midnight, each one of us - armed with a Metallica tape - headed to a different village. All dressed in black, we were careful not to be seen. We entered into the buildings and exchanged the tapes. We rallied back to the exfil point, a crossroad not far from the last village and headed back to our apartment. And then we waited... At 0350 we went to the roof with some coffee, opened some field chairs and waited for the show to begin. At 0400 sharp the first "call" came alive, full volume: Make his fight On the hill in the early day Constant chill deep inside ... Take a look To the sky Just before you die It's the last time he will Followed by the next, then the 3rd and 4th joined in. Full volume Metallica! Soon after, we heard sirens headed to the villages. I don't know what happened after that, but we had our own private concert, right there. No kidding, there I was... Metallica call to prayer

      No Kidding There I Was… Metallica Call to Prayer

      May 18, 2013, 49 Comments
    • 345

      Battlefield America: Literary Reflux in 500 Words or Less, #2

      May 17, 2013, 100 Comments
    • north-korea-missiles_opt

      North Korea: Missile Systems

      May 16, 2013, 23 Comments
    • tripoli-embassy-usa-sofrep

      State Department’s ATA Program—A Disaster in the Making

      May 15, 2013, 25 Comments
    • What’s Been 'Camouflaged' About Camouflaged Uniforms?

      What’s Been ‘Camouflaged’ About Camouflaged Uniforms?

      May 14, 2013, 252 Comments
    • Hoorah! Marine Torturing/Murdering Terrorist Killed!

      Hoorah! Marine Torturing/Murdering Terrorist Killed!

      May 13, 2013, 74 Comments
    • Larry Thorne: Three Wars Under Three Flags

      Larry Thorne: Three Wars Under Three Flags

      May 12, 2013, 37 Comments
  • Most Commented

    • Not Mirandizing Terrorists? Slippery slope...

      Not Mirandizing Terrorists? Slippery slope...

      April 25, 2013, 544 Comments
    • Analyzing the Chechen Connection to the Boston Marathon

      The Brothers Kavkaz: Analyzing the Chechen Connection to the Boston Marathon

      April 21, 2013, 447 Comments
    • Extortion 17 Heroes

      Extortion 17 Heroes

      May 9, 2013, 370 Comments
    • What’s Been 'Camouflaged' About Camouflaged Uniforms?

      What's Been 'Camouflaged' About Camouflaged Uniforms?

      May 14, 2013, 252 Comments
    • Benghazi: Book Delves Into the Details Nobody's Talking About

      UT Report: Benghazi Book Uncovers the Details Nobody's Talking About

      May 7, 2013, 245 Comments
    • Attention Whores and Conspiracy Theorists (But I Repeat Myself)

      Attention Whores and Conspiracy Theorists (But I Repeat Myself)

      April 27, 2013, 238 Comments
    • State Department at Fault Over Benghazi Response

      State Department at Fault Over Benghazi Response

      May 2, 2013, 229 Comments
    • DSC_4902

      Why Does PETA Want to Kill Our Special Operators?

      April 29, 2013, 188 Comments
    • SOFREP on Newsmax TV Discussing Benghazi

      SOFREP on Newsmax TV Discussing Benghazi

      May 8, 2013, 157 Comments
    • red dawn

      Battlefield America: Literary Reflux in 500 Words or Less

      April 30, 2013, 136 Comments
  • Topics by Category

    • SOF News

    • Op-Ed

    • MARSOC

    • NSWC

    • USASOC

    • Coalition SOF

    • SOF History

    • Special Operations

    • Black Ops & Intel

    • Admin

    • No Shit There I Was

  • SOFREP TV

    • U.S. Army Rangers Episode 4: Life in Ranger Battalion (Part 1)

      U.S. Army Rangers Episode 4: Life in Ranger Battalion (Part 1)

      May 20, 2013, 6 Comments
    • US Army Rangers Episode 3: Ranger Indoctrination (RIP)

      U.S. Army Rangers Episode 3: Ranger Indoctrination (RIP)

      May 15, 2013, 18 Comments
    • U.S. Army Rangers Episode 2: Ranger Indoctrination (RIP)

      U.S. Army Rangers Episode 2: Ranger Indoctrination (RIP)

      May 13, 2013, 41 Comments
    • Honoring the Fallen

      Heroes of U.S. Special Operations: Honoring the Fallen

      December 9, 2012, 4 Comments
    • The Unifying Issue

      Heroes of U.S. Special Operations: The Unifying Issue

      December 8, 2012, 3 Comments
    • Veterans Day

      Heroes of U.S. Special Operations: Veterans Day

      December 7, 2012, 2 Comments
    • Inside the Team Room Episode 26: Passing the Gut Check

      Inside the Team Room Episode 26: Passing the Gut Check

      November 19, 2012, 7 Comments
    • Inside the Team Room Episode 25: SEALs vs. Gangsters

      Inside the Team Room Episode 25: SEALs vs. Gangsters

      November 18, 2012, 16 Comments
    • Inside the Team Room Episode 24: Leaving the Teams

      Inside the Team Room Episode 24: Leaving the Teams

      November 17, 2012, 4 Comments
  • SOFREP Radio

    • And The Hits Just Keep On Comin'

      And The Hits Just Keep On Comin

      May 20, 2013, 12 Comments
    • Navy SEAL Mike Ritland And Dog Rico Tour New York

      Navy SEAL Mike Ritland And Dog Rico Tour New York

      May 10, 2013, 18 Comments
    • Mark Donald - SEAL Medic And Author Of Book Battle Ready

      Mark Donald – SEAL Medic And Author Of Book Battle Ready

      April 28, 2013, 10 Comments
SOFREP Network SOFREP Network SOFREP Navy SEALs The Loadout Room Hot Extract The Arms Guide SOFREP Radio SOFREP TV SOFREP Team Room
Listen to SOFREP Radio #1 on iTunes
  • Contact
  • About
  • Terms of Use
  • Privacy Policy
  • Commenting
  • Advertisers

© Copyright 2013 SOFREP Inc. All Rights Reserved.