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Home » SOF News » The Chinese & Taliban Partnership Nobody Is Talking About Until Now

The Chinese & Taliban Partnership Nobody Is Talking About Until Now

by Brandon Webb · July 31, 2012 · Posted In: SOF News, Special Operations
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Village Stability Operations (VSO)

VSO are one of several national priority efforts currently conducted by joint/combined SOF teams in rural village areas across Afghanistan in support of the International Security Assistance Force’s, or ISAF’s, comprehensive campaign of counterinsurgency, or COIN. The ultimate goal of the COIN campaign is to foster an enduring stability for the people of Afghanistan. Performing what are commonly described as “bottom-up” stability efforts….so says big Army.

Related Posts
  • Chinese Special Operations Forces
  • Did the U.S. train a Taliban Air Force?
  • Afghanistan To Be Determined

The Chinese Taliban Partnership

VSO is a losing strategy if the U.S. is not invested in Afghanistan for the long haul and we all know that we’re only building houses of cards. Current VSO operations in theater will only provide temporary shelter from a Chinese storm that is sweeping across the Afghanistan nation, and squeezing the land of every available natural resource. China doesn’t give a fuck if the TB (Taliban) is in charge, just as long as they look the other way once they’re on the take; the TB will want their cut of course.  This will happen as soon as the U.S. pulls out and it’s back to burkas as usual.

Ever heard of the Trans Afghan pipeline?

A friend of mine going to Afghanistan soon says….

“Guys like you and me can see the real future if China taps that 1Trillion worth of resources (God knows that they need them…). China will not give two shits if AFG returns to a complete safe haven for every terrorist faction on the globe that hates the USA. In fact, an unstable AFG is better for what they are hoping to accomplish. They may even promote that shit just to keep us on our toes knowing that there is no way in hell we would return. They are a very strategic “chess playing” country. Pricks.”-Anonymous US SOCOM Operator

Score: China 1 America 0.

China’s Afghan Game Plan

In his latest book, On China, Henry Kissinger uses the traditional intellectual games favored by China and the West – weiqi and chess – as a way to reveal their differing attitudes toward international power politics. Chess is about total victory, a Clausewitzian battle for the “center of gravity” and the eventual elimination of the enemy, whereas weiqi is a quest for relative advantage through a strategy of encirclement that avoids direct conflict.

This cultural contrast is a useful guide to the way that China manages its current competition with the West. China’s Afghan policy is a case in point, but it also is a formidable challenge to the weiqi way. As the United States prepares to withdraw its troops from the country, China must deal with an uncertain post-war scenario.

Afghanistan is of vital strategic interest to China, yet it never crossed its leaders’ minds to defend those interests through war. A vital security zone to China’s west, Afghanistan is also an important corridor through which it can secure its interests in Pakistan (a traditional ally in China’s competition with India), and ensure its access to vital natural resources in the region. Moreover, China’s already restless Muslim-majority province of Xinjiang, which borders on Afghanistan, might be dangerously affected by a Taliban takeover there, or by the country’s dismemberment.

The US fought its longest-ever war in Afghanistan, at a cost (so far) of more than $555 billion, not to mention tens of thousands of Afghan civilian casualties and close to 3,100 US troops killed. But China’s strategy in the country was mostly focused on business development, and on satiating its vast appetite for energy and minerals. The US Defense Department has valued Afghanistan’s untapped mineral deposits at $1 trillion. But it is China that is now poised to exploit much of these resources.

Indeed, China’s development of the Aynak Copper Mine was the largest single foreign direct investment in Afghanistan’s history. China was also engaged in constructing a $500 million electric plant and railway link between Tajikistan and Pakistan. Last December, China’s state-owned National Petroleum Corporation signed a deal with the Afghan authorities that would make it the first foreign company to exploit Afghanistan’s oil and natural-gas reserves.

trans-afghan-pipeline-sofrep

Once China’s enormous economic and security interests in Afghanistan are left without America’s military shield, the Chinese are bound to play an even larger role there, one that Afghans hope will reach “strategic levels.”

China would prefer to accomplish this the Chinese way – that is, essentially through a display of soft power – or, as the Chinese government put it on the occasion of Afghan President Hamid Karzai’s official visit to Beijing in early June, through “non-traditional security areas.”

Judging by China’s behavior in other parts of the world, any military cooperation is likely to be extremely modest and cautious. China has already made it clear it will not contribute to the $4.1 billion multilateral fund to sustain Afghan national security forces. Rather, the two countries’ recently signed bilateral cooperation agreement is about “safeguarding Afghanistan’s national stability” through social and economic development.

China is especially keen on combating drug trafficking, as Badakhshan, the Afghan province bordering on Xinjiang, has become the main transit route for Afghan opium. But preventing the spillover into Xinjiang of Taliban-inspired religious extremism remains a high priority as well.

China went to great lengths to present the recent summit in Beijing of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, which includes China, Russia, and major Central Asian countries, as an attempt to create a fair balance of interests among regional stakeholders.  Moreover, the SCO sought a consensus on how, in Chinese President Hu Jintao’s words, to guard the region “against shocks from turbulence outside the region.”

Yet, however focused it is on soft-power projection in Afghanistan, China will likely find it difficult not to be drawn into the role of policeman in an extremely complex and historically conflict-ridden region. China’s regional outreach, moreover, clashes with that of other regional powers, such as Russia and India. Nor is its own ally, Pakistan, particularly eager to confront terrorist groups that threaten the security of its neighbors, China among them.

By: Shlomo Ben-Ami, the Israeli foreign minister who came closest to devising a viable peace agreement between Israel and Palestine.

Read the rest here and share your thoughts.

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About The Author

Brandon Webb

Brandon Webb is a former U.S. Navy SEAL with combat deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan, and elsewhere in the Middle East. His last tour in the SEAL Teams was as the Course Manager for the US Navy SEAL Sniper program, arguably one of the most difficult sniper courses in the world. He was formerly a contributing editor for Military.com, and currently the Editor-in-Chief of SOFREP.com. Brandon is regularly featured in the media as a subject matter expert on military affairs. An avid writer, his last two books (The Red Circle, & Benghazi: The Definitive Report) both hit the New York Times best seller list, and his writing has been featured in print, and digital media worldwide. You can follow him on Twitter @BrandontWebb

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    Afghanistan To Be Determined

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CJCJ
CJCJ 5pts

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-10-21/historic-first-china-begins-oil-extraction-afghanistan

 

"As Reuters reports, in a historic development, and in a key staking of regional energy claims, a Chinese oil firm, China National Petroleum Corp, has just started oil production in the country which still has thousands of US troops on the ground."

 

YGTBSM

The Midnight Philosopher
The Midnight Philosopher 5pts

I wonder if the Opium kingpins in Afghanistan are looking to strengthen ties with Chinese dealers, due to the warming of relations between the two said countries. From what I understand Opium is an element in the Buddhist religion, and China has a lot of them. 

Recon6
Recon6 moderator 5pts

 @The Midnight Philosopher   You might want to do a little 'fact checking'.  Opium plays no part in Buddhist philosophy, nor are there "a lot of them" in China.  China has invaded Tibet and and is attempting to destroy their culture completely, and banned the Dalai Lama.     6

The Midnight Philosopher
The Midnight Philosopher 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Recon6 Thanks for the recailbration, Anyway while my initial aim was off my target question is what does increased foreign influence in Afghanistan mean for their opium crop? There are plenty of groups that see the dollar signs in that harvest.

Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

One aspect of the Chinese use of proxies hasn't been talked about here.  With the ongoing research and development of advanced missiles in North Korea and Iran.  And the Swarming technique of Iranian high speed missile boats, they are setting up a test run to defeat our Aegis system.  Then look for deployments to Venezuela, Cuba, Brazil? 

HugeFan
HugeFan moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Old PH2 Defeat Aegis? I don't envy anyone who wants to complete that task. Think about the capabilities of just 1 Ticonderoga-class and then force multiply that with a battle group. Yeah, I would rather just go farm potato bugs...

This comment has been deleted

Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @ArcticWarrior Our local National Guard Air Base just rotated out of being used to train Dutch F-16's kinda miss it.  But being so close to Wright -Patterson we see all kinds of birds, C-17's through F-15's and FA-18's.  The USN still fly's in during Hurricanes.  So I still get my fix!  : )  

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Old PH2

 Love that sound. Lived directly across the water from EAFB, when the alert cell 15s would launch they would go full AB over the house to go "greet" those pesky Russians who even in the late 90s early 00's were still cracking our airspace. Nothing like that sound. Now I live near 16s and there puny single engines ( we just got the 35 awarded here) still a good sound but nothing like 2 engines spooled up.

Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts

 @ArcticWarrior Yeah, Still pictures just can't do it justice.  Rattles your teeth, then the heat.  The sounds of freedom brother!

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts

 @Old PH2

 I love full AB at Night! I would imagine on a ship in the middle of a very dark ocean it had to be dramatic.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Old PH2

 Thats awesome you got all those rides. Too bad about the Cat. However a friend of mine, a Jock at EAFB told me that when they do ride alongs the intent is to make you vomit and/or pass out if your a guy. If your female and especially if your an attractive female, they go easy on you.

I almost snagged a ride along in an E Model 15. But weather, training schedules didnt align right for me.

Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts

 @ArcticWarrior Yeah, it's crazy, I rode H-3's, H-53's, H-60's UH-1's, S-2's, EA-6b's, TA-4's, T-2's, and the assorted Cod all as Photo/ observer.  But I was never given the chance to strap into a Tomcat, one of my real regrets in life.  The Tomcat A's were just awe inspiring at the JBD during a nightime cat shot.

Here's an image from an old aquaintance:

http://www.piratecreations.com/sara_files/Saratoga0036LR_WEB.jpg

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Old PH2

 Kind of like being in Hondo and the map and GPS dont sync up correctly???

 

All good things come to an end. The Phanthom gave us the Cat, which gave us the SuperHornet and hopefully the 35 will live up to its lineage.

 

When I was a kid everybody had the "Anytime Baby" Tomcat sticker on their books.

Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts

 @ArcticWarrior During the build up of Gulf War 1 we did a great deal of mapping the approaches to Iraq through the Saudi Desert.  Crazy thing 200'-400' tall sand dunes move around in the wind, we were constantly updating the maps for low level infils.  I think the main reason the DoD decided to scrap the Tomcat was it would be a major Rework to bring it up to date, Fly by wire and all that.  Can't believe the shredded all but a few museum pieces.  I guess the Iranians can't buy spares that way!

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts

 @Old PH2

 If I remember right, and I may be wrong, but I thought Cats were dropping Iron in the early parts of OEF-A I, II, III.

Yes, the Radar was wayyyy ahead of its time. The 14 has to rank as one of the Navies best in a long line of excellent aircraft.

Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts

 @ArcticWarrior I do remember the Soviets trying to grab one, think they wanted the Phoenix and a good look at the AWG-9 Radar.

Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @ArcticWarrior I remember that while I was with the TARPS shop of a FITRON that we regularly could pull 95% mission capable.  I don't know how the other squadrons stood.  The Tomcat was specifically designed with input from the USN experience in Vietnam, two engines, a gun, Two aviators, look down Shoot down radar, Over the Horizon capability, and E-2 Hawkeye integration.  The Cat was part of the overall battle group sensor integration.  Was on a det up at PAX river working on the Recon version of the F-18 when they were trying out MER's on the Tomcat.  Pretty good story, I understand the tunnel between the engines is part of the lifting body and the bombs would not drop.  Pretty hairy, but they worked it out and the Tomcat dropped some Iron in Gulf War 2 from what I've been told.

 

All I can say about the Hornet is from what I saw when they first arrived in the fleet, maybe they addressed these issues but I can't say.  To launch they required After burner, which then required a tanker to them top off before leaving the stack.  Second, the composite materials of the airframe would create toxic fumes during a fire, crews would don OBA's and using a special Forklift they would push the Hornet into the drink.  Third the engines where much closer together, running the risk of crossover FOD from one failing engine to the other.

Fourth, like the A-7, the F-15, and the F16 the single aviator flying, no matter the amount of software and sensors, could never have the SA of two aviators.

 

Just my observations     

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts

 @Old PH2

 Im not sure the Iranians have more then a few if any that are airworthy and how many are combat capable after all these years? They would be better off with Suks.

How does the Super Hornet stand up to the Tomcat? I grew up near Grumman in NY and knew many peoples parents who worked on the Cat, wasnt it a maintainence hog?, it was a major source of pride in the area.

It was way ahead of its time coming out in the early 70s. Didnt the Soviets try to reel one in that went into the drink in the early 80's?

Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @ArcticWarrior Right now I'm wondering how many F-14's the Iranians still have that are airworthy?  'Cause I'm thinkin' they'd be able to seriously kick some ass in the hands of some good pilots.  I still can't fathom the USN trading the F-14D for the F/A-18 it's like apples to oranges.  Of course I'm an Old Tomcat guy so I'm a little biased.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_okE2fz_Pef8/SGmv-xTEzCI/AAAAAAAAAv8/PCIe6o0InGU/s400/219671_orig.jpg

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Old PH2  @Matt2

 Pic of Raptors from the 525 FS coming back to Elmendorf during Red Flag-AK. The boys from Elmendorf were most impressive.

 

http://www.jber.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/120620-F-XJ740-012.JPG

Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Matt2  @ArcticWarrior Swarms of these 15m hulls screaming down on you at around 60kts would definitely cause a major butt clench!

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_okE2fz_Pef8/TGJgHrBw4YI/AAAAAAAACoc/onUTdXbtB3g/s1600/X00882743395.jpg

http://www.uskowioniran.com/2010/08/irgcn-launches-fast-attack-craft-in.html

Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts

 @ArcticWarrior  @Matt2 The info coming out on Red Flag and the F-22 100+to 3 kill ratio has me wondering how the f-35 would preform.  Quin over at Chairborne Commandos brought out that the Germans Flying old Panavia Tornados, an F-16, and a fellow flying an EA-18 Growler were the most successful against the F-22.  Makes me think maneuverability is an issue.  But the F-35 with vectored thrust should get around that.  Do the Chinese still fly anything like the Su-22?  I'd seriously be looking at how to defeat that threat.  

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @Matt2

 Yeah no joke, forget the Taliban and Chicoms. SkyNet.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @Matt2

 And all the lowly 11B can ask for is a better combat rifle and batteries that are lighter and stronger. Someone has to actually go HOLD property when all the tech is done.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Matt2

 The Navy historically has been the Branch that does tech better and first. I see they seem to be balking at having the F-35 forced on them, especially when there UCAV (X47?) seems to be making some serious headway in testing. I would imagine it will be Naval anti- ballistic missle systems that are shipborne that will be more accurate and Naval Directed Energy Weapons that are shipborne that we field first. Werent they working on shipborne rail guns?

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Matt2

 At one time Tanks were the beast of land warfare, Air changed that, like it changed the Battleships viability at sea. Air was probably the biggest game changer of the 20th century. More so then the bomb which was primarily used as a tool box threat after 1945. Hopefully our Directed Energy type stuff will allow us to stay in the lead in the 21st Century, because whoever cracks that nut first will have a big stick and it will reinvent warfare as we know it today.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Matt2

 Im sure Shock and Awe would look like Mayberries 4th of July by comparison if they junked a CVN.

One thing Ive noticed in my limited Naval reading is that the Navy is very hush-hush on the Boomers and their activities, even years later.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Matt2

 Im sure by pointing out flaws and winning he was persona non grata in the funny shaped building in DC. Kind of distressing that kind of info would be put out for public consumption. Arent those sims supposed to be tight lipped? If I was China, Iran and NK I would be double timing on the results of that.

Recon6
Recon6 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @Matt2   AW, there are accounts of quite a few fire bases being overrun, but breached was naturally more prevalent.  Personally involved in a couple of the latter, but the worst was on a mission west of Dak To on a mountain watching a fire base over run and a very good friend in the Mortar Platoon was killed.  It became so bad that 'Snoopy' was working the fb over with everything they had, and it Still wasn't enough.  Fucked up feeling watching and being totally incapable to assist.  Fortunately, the next day I didn't have to do any assessment as that would have totally sucked.  Really fucked up story of how my friend died...bad stuff.  On track, the little people just kept coming and dying en mass!    6

Recon6
Recon6 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Matt2  @HugeFan  Matt, it would appear, at this time, the only legitimate defense is range, i.e. getting close enough to deploy the weapon.

Don't know how 'dated' such info, hopefully someone like Jack is more in tune?

R6

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @Matt2

 I gotta trust you Naval guys on the Aegis thing, Im a person who needs his feet on the ground. But wasnt that Littoral Ship supposed to be specifically for that kind of swarm attack in the Straits? After reading Brandons account of the damage on the USS Cole I would imagine a well coordinated Swarm may be effective on the smaller ships, even of the primitive type but especially if rigged with anti-ship missle capabilities. But a CVN is a lot of steel, right?

Look at some of the Swarm attacks the Chinese used in Korea on us. Guns just couldnt fire fast enough or barrels overheated rendering them useless before being over run. R6 Im sure has some stories of Fire Bases being over run in VN. I only heard of a few remote FOBs being over run, if that is even the correct term, in OEF and a few attacks on the bigger bases that resulted in Perimeter breeches, but usually with inside help.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @Matt2

  Consider that by bluffing and not showing his hand he kept the Iranians wary of a weakened Iraq after ODS. I dont think he really believed we were going to invade and stay awhile. I think he was more into fucking with his neighbors heads at the time.

The Iranians who treated the Kurds said it was Mustard Gas and a "Nerve Agent". But VX and Sarin were in his collection and Germany and India provided a bunch of Chemical Help.

Then he blamed Iran after Halabja and so did we. But during Sadaams trial I believe both he and Chemical Ali both alluded to "special weapons" being used on the Kurds. And the Iranians who were affected on thier side of the Border described both Sarin and Mustard.

If you believe the Iarq Survey Group Report, the Chemical Plant they started building in March of 2003 (bad timing huh?) to the West of Baghdad  was meant for Chemical munitions, to keep the balance of power in the region as Sadaam told his MIM people and Chemical Ali's people.

Im sure somebody here, Maybe Jack, has insight into where SOCOM sent people to secure or hold sites. That would have been high on the HVT list.

HugeFan
HugeFan moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Matt2 I agree that the VA-111 is a super-scary threat and to my unclassified knowledge, there are no countermeasures per se... However, to field this weapon is to have the means to maintain it and practice with it. Again, to my knowledge Russia is mostly focused on modernization of her fleet so the threat would really only come from there or China because those two countries are the only ones really capable of fielding it at the moment but neither really have the resources to adequately train their crews to successfully implement that weapon system at this time. Being able to use that weapon involves serious naval hardware, unlike a FIM-92 where "Have sandals. Will travel." is all it takes to effectively use that system. :-)

HugeFan
HugeFan moderator 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @Matt2 A repost of what OldPH2 wrote:

 

"One aspect of the Chinese use of proxies hasn't been talked about here.  With the ongoing research and development of advanced missiles in North Korea and Iran.  And the Swarming technique of Iranian high speed missile boats, they are setting up a test run to defeat our Aegis system.  Then look for deployments to Venezuela, Cuba, Brazil?" 

CJCJ
CJCJ 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 5 Like

 @Old PH2 

Sounds like the classic communist tactic/strategy of quantity over quality. Send human waves to sacrifice for mother Russia, with apparatchiks to shoot those with failing courage. Iranians sent human waves against the Iraqis in their war which was met with WMD gas supplied by the US. Yeah, I said it. Former USAF and CIA officer LtCol Rick Francona was an adviser to the Iraqi military prior to GW I and an NBC commentator who said it out loud on NBC. At some point he was no longer heard from on NBC. My guess is that he was told that this was embarrassing and in essence accusing the US of being in violation of its treaty obligations.  

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @CJCJ

 Jed Eckert: ...Well, who *is* on our side?

  Col. Andy Tanner: Six hundred million screaming Chinamen

. Darryl Bates: Last I heard, there were a billion screaming Chinamen

. Col. Andy Tanner: There *were*.

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @Recon6  @CJCJ

 John Connor: We're not gonna make it, are we? People, I mean.

The Terminator: It's in your nature to destroy yourselves.

  John Connor: Yeah. Major drag, huh?

Recon6
Recon6 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @CJCJ   AW, yea I was afraid someone like Bloomberg would pick up on it and decide the UN needs to also Ban knives as well as guns. since it is possible to use both to kill.  Leave it up to them and they will Ban everything since a person wanting to kill can do so in myriad ways.   6

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @Recon6  @CJCJ

 Only guns kill people R, or at least thats what that Shitbag Bloomberg says.

Recon6
Recon6 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @CJCJ   AW, hey as of yesterday there are at least 8 less since some guy, Mr. Li went berserk and Knifed the folks in his village!  Wish he had a .50 cal and took out more!  Wait, my bad, shouldn't say that.  R6

DarwinWavesX
DarwinWavesX 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

 @CJCJ

 

LtCol Francona is good peeps, he always manages to go back to DLI to share good lessons learned to E-1s and fresh grad students at MIIS, very close with the Arabic staff at DLI, MIIS and NPS. He's got some great stories re Iraq under Saddam days. When he talks, you should listen, he's the real deal.

 

OT: +1 on @Recon6 being gangsta'. LOL on the LRRP swagger.

Old PH2
Old PH2 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @CJCJ I've been telling all who will listen that the US entered Iraq to retrieve those WMD's, and yes they had them because the US helped supply them.  I'd almost put money on it that most of those were shipped to Syria.  

Recon6
Recon6 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @ArcticWarrior  @CJCJ  @Old PH2   AW, personally there can be no doubt that they had it.  Too much pre mission talk gave us away, so everyone in the world was aware.

Agreed on the Anthrax, wish someone had some info on that and could provide us with factual stuff    6

ArcticWarrior
ArcticWarrior 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

 @Recon6  @CJCJ  @Old PH2

 Think about it, the Tokyo Subway Terorist attacks  used Sarin, so to think that he and a large number of other nations dont have them or wont use them indeed is naive. If a group of religious fanatics could get that much a nation of even limited means could do a lot better then that.

How about the Anthrax after Sept. 11th. Now that story doesnt add up.

Recon6
Recon6 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @CJCJ  @Old PH2    It would be naive to think otherwise.   6

Recon6
Recon6 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @Old PH2  @CJCJ   PH, I am in Total agreement.  We allowed too much time and they were removed  prior to our incursion.  In certain circles there is No doubt they were present.   6

HugeFan
HugeFan moderator 5pts

 @CJCJ  @Old PH2 Hmmmmm

CJCJ
CJCJ 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @Old PH2 

There were some retired flag officers who publicly posted on a now gone (?) blog named The Captain's Log (?) that the WMDs were trucked to Syria or Lebanon which the Syrians controlled. Then there was a coworker and former USN guy who went by "Jethro" who had his own vehicles, weapons, and PSD. His mission was let's just say "survey" work. He flat out stated he saw some of that being loaded onto a ship. It was there, some was used, some was trucked out, and some was, well, let's just say it remains "unaccounted". 

Recon6
Recon6 moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

 @HugeFan  @Old PH2  @CJCJ   HJ, that is my take also.  Perhaps @Matt2  or @ArcticWarrior  could help us with that?  I am a voracious reader, but Damn, I cannot keep up with you younger guys!   6

HugeFan
HugeFan moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

 @Old PH2  @CJCJ If Iraq did not at one point have WMD's then how in the hell did Saddam manage to kill hundreds of thousands of Khurds? I've read that certain OGA's (not just from the U.S.) determined that it was Mustard Gas that did it... but yeah no WMD's... right

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