• The TOC
  • SOFREP Explained
  • The Loadout Room
  • Team Room
SOFREP.com - THE Special Operations Forces Report
SOFREP Logos AFSOC MARSOC NSWC USASOC
  • News & Intel
    • SOF News
    • Op-Ed
    • AFSOC
    • MARSOC
    • NSWC
    • USASOC
    • Coalition SOF
    • SOF History
    • Special Operations
    • Black Ops & Intel
    • Admin
    • No Kidding There I Was
  • About Spec Ops
    • AFSOC
    • MARSOC
    • NSWC
    • USASOC
    • Coalition SOF
  • SOFREP TV
    • Inside the Team Room: U.S. Army Rangers
    • Heroes of U.S. Special Operations
    • Inside the Team Room: U.S. Navy SEALs
  • SOFREP Radio
  • Charities
  • Comms Check
    • Share Your War Stories
    • SOFREP Explained
  • The PX
Home Previous story Next story
submit to reddit
Like us on Facebook Follow us on Twitter Follow us on Youtube
Home » AFSOC » What Brought Down 160th SOAR's Stealth Black Hawk?

What Brought Down 160th SOAR's Stealth Black Hawk?

by Jack Murphy · February 14, 2012 · Posted In: AFSOC, NSWC, Special Operations
concept

Stealth Hawk Down?

Related Posts
  • Seaspray, the Black Ops Shadow of TF 160th
  • TF 160th: JSOC’s & The Worlds Best Pilots
  • News: Army Spec Ops Aviation Commander Promoted to Brigadier General

Bin Laden gets face-shot

When the Osama Bin Laden raid went down, there was a flurry of news reporting, many initial reports stumbling over themselves as both the media and the White House struggled to get their stories straight.  Who executed the raid?  How was Bin Laden killed?  Who is Seal Team Six?  Our readers already knew the answer to that last one, but you get the idea.  From what I gather, and we don’t have the whole story even today, is that the actions on the objective were fairly straight forward.  Maybe there were one or two terrorists who had armed themselves, but it doesn’t sound like that slowed ST6 down much, if at all.  Everything was kosher until they began to exfil off the objective.

What happened next would reveal a previously classified aviation program to the world and potentially create an international crisis.

160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment’s Secret Helicopter

From a training event with 160th back in 2006

As a member of 3rd Ranger Battalion and 5th Special Forces Group, I flew with 160th numerous times in both Afghanistan and Iraq.  I’ve seen 160th pilots do some amazing things with their aircraft.  They put us down on roof tops, they’ve had the co-pilot lean out of the helicopter and deliver fire support with an M4, and I’ve even been on a MH-60 as the pilot navigated his helicopter between power lines with surgical precision to insert my ODA on an objective.  I have nothing but respect for these guys, and it surprises no one that it was 160th that successfully conducted the OBL raid with the SEALs.

While I was in Army Special Operations, I heard nothing, and I mean not even a whisper of any secret helicopter projects.  Not even a rumor about stealth helicopters.  This goes to show how tight the Army’s OPSEC was around this project, and with good reason.  As we now know from the wreckage left behind in Pakistan, at least one stealth helicopter was on the mission, but probably two or three as that is how many helicopters would be needed at a minimum for the raid, and having one stealth helicopter and two non-stealth MH-60′s flying in formation together would kind of negate the purpose.

In this case, the stealth capabilities of these helicopters would be needed to insert a Ground Assault Force into the target area while evading Pakistani radar stations during this cross border operation.  Bin Laden was living near a Pakistani military base in Abbottabad, a town filled with active duty and retired military officers.  Who would’ve thought…

While 160th is based at Ft. Campbell, Kentucky, it turns out that there is also a element of the Special Operations aviation unit located off-site called Echo Squadron.  The exact location of Echo Squadron will remain undisclosed due to OPSEC considerations.

Stealth Hawk Down

Stealth Hawk tail section

While it appears that one helicopter landed inside the compound and extracted successfully, another crash landed.  This forced the ST6 operators, pilots, and any flight crew to initiate the destruction plan.  More than likely they popped some thermite grenades inside the downed Stealth Hawk and cross loaded onto one of the other aircraft.  This is another reason why you never have just one bird on station for a mission like this, if one aircraft goes down, you have men stranded on the ground.  But why did the crash happen to begin with?

After consulting with experts in the field of rotary wing aircraft, it seems that the most likely cause of the crash was due to a phenomena known to pilots as “settling with power” with atmospheric conditions potentially playing a role as well.  Helicopter pilots will almost always attempt to land while facing into the wind, however, the pre-determined approach into the objective in this case may have actually given them a down wind landing.  If the rotor wash pushed from the rotors down to the ground, then comes back up and pushes into the decent path of the helicopter, it can then make the aircraft unstable.  This is how settling with power can destabilize a helicopter.  The rotors essentially created a vortex of dead air space that could no longer generate lift.

The rotor blade system needs clean, that is, uniform air to produce lift.  If instead it gets un-uniform air, such as air previously disturbed by the helicopter’s own rotor wash, than the pilot could be in for some trouble.

At this point, the pilot would have begun to lose control of the aircraft from self-induced turbulence.  Without lift and maneuverability, he would have to conduct a controlled crash as a last resort.  As we see in the pictures, the tail rotor section split over an outer wall of the compound.  Did this obstacle also disrupt the air flow from the main rotor system and destabilize the aircraft?  Maybe.

What is it?

Artists rendering of the Stealth Black Hawk

As pictures of the wreckage began to filter out to the media from Pakistan, the main question became: What the hell is it?  There was speculation that it was an entirely new type of helicopter cooked up deep inside some black budget Special Access Program at Area 51.  Others made the observation that it was more likely a highly modified MH-60 helicopter.  I pulled the following picture off the comments section of an Aviation Weekly article not long after the OBL raid:

Stealth Hawk/UH-60 comparison

As you can see above, the main rotor system of a conventional Black Hawk does look an awful lot like that of the wreckage left behind in Pakistan.

Aftermath

While the OBL raid was an overwhelming success, it also exposed a Top-Secret helicopter program.  Certainly this was something taken into account by both military planners at JSOC as well as political leadership in Washington, DC.  They would have worked a risk mitigation strategy and determined that the intelligence justified the raid even if it came at the expense of compromising a classified program and certain Special Operations Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures.  I think I join the vast majority of Americans in agreeing with this decision, but let’s also examine the negative effects.

Within weeks the press was reporting that Pakistan was letting officials from the Chinese government look at the wreckage of the Stealth Black Hawk.  Some experts, optimistically in my opinion, have weighed in saying that the Chinese will be able to reverse engineer the stealth helicopter technology in a matter of months.  I’m not so sure. The Clinton administration initiated a series of technology transfers to China and we’ve all heard about Chinese hackers engaging in industrial espionage.  It seems that it was only relatively recently that the Chinese built a functioning stealth fighter.

Chinese J-20 Stealth Fighter

At any rate, it seems beyond a shadow of a doubt that at some point countries antagonistic towards the United States will reverse engineer stealth technology, it’s just a question of when.  As for the Stealth Black Hawk (the official designation of this aircraft remains unknown) you can be sure that 160th combed over every piece of intel and technical detail when working up their After Action Review to avoid a similar incident in future operations.

About Our Links
We link to other websites if we find their content compelling. We also link to relevant products on Amazon.com as affiliates. The money we earn from these sales helps keep our website running and a few beers on ice.

Related Posts

  • AH-6F landing EGABRAG

    Seaspray, the Black Ops Shadow of TF 160th

  • rangers-littlebird-sofrep-tf160

    TF 160th: JSOC’s & The Worlds Best Pilots

  • task-force-160-sofrep

    News: Army Spec Ops Aviation Commander Promoted to Brigadier General

Follow Sofrep on:
Follow @sofrep OR  rss
63 comments
  Livefyre
  • Get Livefyre
  • FAQ
Sign in
+ Follow
Post comment
 
Link
Newest | Oldest
Afghan1
Afghan1 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

It should be noted that there is difference between "settling with power" and "vortex ring state", although they are sometime used erroneously as the same thing. "Recirculation" is also another seperate phenomenon. Settling with power means not having enough power available to arrest your rate of descent. High density altitude and heavy gross weight both contribute very much to this. Vortex ring is basically falling into your own downwash. Low forward airspeed (made worse by landing downwind) combined with a decent rate of descent can cause this condition. To recover you have a couple options; get airspeed or remove yourself from the vortices. An underused technique is to quickly put in lateral cyclic to move the aircraft sideways into clean air. Recirculation is when there are obstacles (wall, heavy treeline, etc) that force the downwash back vertically where the air is then reintroduced back into the rotor system. It isn't the vortices that are the problem, but the movement of the air. The induced airspeed changes the angle of attack of the blades and leaded to less available lift. Anyways, just giving a bit more info on the phenomenons that could have contributed to this incident. Without more info it's hard to know what exactly caused it. All of these events are pilot induced, but the operational need of the mission obviously force the pilots to take greater risks when selecting their approaches then in a non-combat situation.

usapatriotonthemove
usapatriotonthemove 5pts

Dang, can't believe I missed this article?  This is good stuff! Thanks Jack.  I'm sure it's been brought up? Maybe not? But if the mock up had been built to spec and not with chain link fences, I wonder if the condition's would've been close enough to create the same kind of issues with the choppers?  Mute point now, but that attention to detail thing will get yah every time..;) 

Darkstar11
Darkstar11 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

Vortex Ring, its a state most likely to occur in a hover over a box or "compound" where the air gets re-cycled through the main rotor at increasing velocities causing loss of lift, requiring more throttle and collective (FADEC intercontingency/auth) until either you just crash, run out of power and crash or run out of tail rotor authority, over-torque and crash, the latter is the least controllable.This pilot opted for scenario 3. it is a Blackhawk Nighthawk SMH and the openengs in the fore tail top duct engine gasses/heat down a decreasingly insulated tail boom in order to gradually cool the heat signature the cooler air then gets re washed by the tailrotor upwardly making it dissipate even more quickly. The aperture will also be tuned so bleed air is distrbuted across the tail rotor at its noise cancelling frequency during tac transit modes.

Iassen Donov
Iassen Donov 5pts

I'm with you on that one - I know so much about the inner workings of JSOC and their operations that I shouldn't. But this stealth 60 is something I was compeltely surprised about. As for Echo Company of the 160th. They are the unit that lost the 47 in the Southern Philippines that left like a dozen dead. I have no idea what battalion they belong to nor where they are stationed.

JackMurphyRGR
JackMurphyRGR moderator 5pts

 @Iassen Donov Iassen Donov I was not aware of the 47 that went down in PI...when was this?

LCpl X
LCpl X 5pts

 @JackMurphyRGR 

 

Army Helicopter Crashes in the Philippines; 10 AboardThe WorldMilitary: Fishermen rescue three people, but a search fails to locate more survivors.

 

February 22, 2002

 

Before the crash, the MH-47 Chinook had just finished ferrying dozens of Special Forces troops to the island of Basilan, where they are assisting and training Philippine troops combating the Abu Sayyaf, an Islamic rebel group whose hostages include two American missionaries.

http://articles.latimes.com/2002/feb/22/news/mn-29313

It was unclear what caused the crash, but there were no reports of hostile fire, the Pentagon and Philippine military officials said. Philippine Armed Forces Chief of Staff Diomedio Villanueva blamed the crash on a systems malfunction, according to television reports.

 

"There were no hostilities; there was no hostile ground fire," said Col. Danilo Servando, spokesman for the joint U.S.-Philippine exercise in Zamboanga on Mindanao island. "It would be more of a technical problem."

 

The aircraft crashed in darkness en route to Mactan air base, a Philippine facility in the central part of the country being used by U.S. forces in the anti-terrorism campaign.

 

LCpl X
LCpl X 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

I finally figured out how to create a profile and add an avatar pic.

We've read and watched countless articles/shows about BUD/S, SF, Ranger school, BRC, SWCC & other hi speed lo drag school for operators, but almost zero description on aviators who get them there. Figured many of us would be interested in how these aviators are chosen and trained. How 'bout it, gents?

Riceball
Riceball 5pts

@LCpl X There was an episode of the show "Making the Cut" that featured the 160th's school. From what they showed it wasn't a whole lot different from other SOF schools. Lots of PT and lots of misery plus the usual log drills that SOF schools seem to love so much. They also had an interesting exercise that involved pulling Humvees using just muscle power. Another interesting aspect was that they also had some of their classmates "taken prisoner" during one exercise and the class got chewed out for leaving them behind, something I've never seen in any other documentary on SOF schools/training.

What was also interesting about the 160th school was that the schools was segregated by rank; officers and enlisted did not train together. I thought that that was a little odd since it would make sense, to me, to have them train together with the officers rotating as the class leader and have to deal with the stress of commanding troops in stressful situations.

JackMurphyRGR
JackMurphyRGR moderator 5pts

@LCpl X It's on the drawing board, no doubt about it. If we can find a former 160th guy to be the editor for Special Operations Aviation on SOFREP it would be even better. If anyone knows someone who might be interested, please send them our way!

bmessenheimer
bmessenheimer 5pts

@JackMurphyRGR@LCpl X Ill call Don Shipley when he gets back from Puerto Rico.....Im sure he's got some good candidates that SAY the are from 160th.....Hell, I bet some of them were actually flight tasked with OPERATION NEPTUNE!!! Ha! Not to go off topic here, but thats likely to be the source of Posers in the world of SOF

bmessenheimer
bmessenheimer 5pts

@JackMurphyRGR@LCpl X Rog, would expect nothing less. Felt Id lend a bit of humor to the evening. Again, great work on the article and the site itself. Its great to see so much activity from the reader community so early in the launch period as well. Should be an indicator of good things to come. Semper Fi-B

JackMurphyRGR
JackMurphyRGR moderator 5pts

@bmessenheimer@LCpl X Anybody we bring on will be thoroughly checked out. Believe that!

BrandonWebb
BrandonWebb moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

Those 160th pilots are the best in the world in my opinion.

gaelichunter
gaelichunter 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

Great article, Jack. The fact is, as long as there have been rotor craft, there has been vortex ring state as any pilot would tell you. My hat's off to those guys.

SEAN SPOONTS
SEAN SPOONTS 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

In spite of what the pictures show I'm skeptical of the whole stealth helo thing. Making airplanes stealthy requires so many aerodynamic compromises to stability that they need computerized control systems just to be stable in level flight, let alone turn, dive, bank or take off and land. I just don't think you can stealth a helicopter and have a computer make it stable enough to fly. I don't think the limitation is the stealth part, but the computer stabilized control surfaces part. You can reduce a radar signature a bit with a composite skin and absorbant materials but its' still going to be one hell of a radar signature. If I was the commander of the 160th SOAR and someone offered me a stealth helo I'd say no thanks. I can evade most radars simply by flying low, I've got NAV systems and NVG stuff that allows me to practically mow the grass. I can also minimize ground fire at the same time by going nap of the earth. I also make less noise close to the ground so you can skip the mythical whisper mode that is impossible to imagine with 2 jet turbines straining under a full combat load and rotor blades breaking the speed of sound as they go around.
If you're offering Mr. Procurement Command, Here is what I need in a Spec Ops bird;. I need a hardended tail rotor that can withstand shrapnel from exploding RPGs and medium calibre AAA. Try ceramics and kevlar for the shrapnel shield. Give me the tail rotor blades fixed on a rotating ring so if I lose a blade or a hit knocks a foot off all five of them the bird won't vibrate to pieces and I can still maintain directional control and forward flight. Bury the disk behind the tail rotor shield and make that disk one piece, rotor blades and all. Give me a low reflective covering that can defeat infrared detection and absorb visible light from a search light. Give me a cooler exhaust to help me beat manpack IR missiles. Give me some streamlining so I can fly empty max speed with a full load of SEALs or Rangers and extend my range beyond the standard Blackhawk. I'll leave it to those of you with experience as Spec Ops warriors. Wouldn't the things mentioned above be more valuable than a reduced radar signature at 10,000 feet?

JackMurphyRGR
JackMurphyRGR moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

@SEAN SPOONTS The evidence certainly points towards this being a stealth helicopter. I'm not aware of any aviation experts stating otherwise. You have doubts about it being technically feasible but as Solomon mentions, it's already been done to some extent. What do you think those photographs show?

All of the things you mention are important, and who knows how much of that has already been done, but I think your perspective may be a little skewed. The stealth Black Hawk does not at all seem to be made as a replacement for the UH/MH-60 but rather a highly specialized aircraft for highly specialized missions, in this case infiltrations across enemy borders. Evading radar by flying nap-of-the-earth over the Hindu Kush doesn't strike me as being realistic, but I'm not a pilot.

So in high-priority missions that need to be conducted at a low profile, yes, stealth

characteristics would be more important than the other issues you mention.

SEAN SPOONTS
SEAN SPOONTS 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

@JackMurphyRGR

Is the evidence stronger than a couple of pictures? Just hear me out here. If you think this is wild ass guessing that's fine with me but let me explain why I'm thinking the way I am here. I'll take all criticism fairly directed like a big boy.

I guessing here but I'm wondering if it shows a hardened tail rotor system rather than radar stealth. The tail rotor is the real vulnerable part of a helo. It's fragile and if you lose it you don't have a controlable helicopter at all. Tail rotors seem to get hit pretty regularly. Perhaps its the bad guys drawing a lead on the nose and hitting the tail instead. The tailrotor is also the weak link in the helicopter flight system even in peacetime. during the time I was in the Navy we lost about 47 helicopter and every aircrewman like me anxiously awaited the results of the crash investigation, it seemed that most of the time the tail rotor was involved somehow; It lost a blade in flight, it nicked a power line, fence or railing on a ship, it simply came off in flight, its transmission shaft fractured, etc. Ask Brandon if the clearance of the tailrotor wasn't a constant concern when he was in Seahawks. Anyway, if you can protect the tailrotor on a helo you make it much more survivable for the crew which tends to survive the hit but die in the crash.

The threat environment changes for a helicopter with altitude, Above 2,000 feet you are observable at range on radar and surface to air missiles can track on you and smack you down. You are also vulnerable to medium calibre AAA whether radar guided or optically sighted. Below 2,000 feet, you start to drop off of air search radars, radar guided missiles have problems tracking you, though IR can still get you. You are also reducing the sight picture of ground based gunners on AAA. Your only real vulnerability then becomes the guy almost directly below you with an RPG or light machine gun who is in the right place at the right time when you fly over. Go high you get hit by an SA-18, go low and you risk getting swarmed by RPGs and 23mm gunfire, dodge and weave at low altitude and you can reduce the low alt. threat even further.

I'm dot connecting here. It seems to me that most SpecOp missions are going to be low altitude missions to reduce radar and visual detection. So why do I need Commanche like radar avoidance.when my threat is from RPGs and 23mm fire at low altitude? And on the Bin Laden raid any advantage from having stealth hawks was lost by the two Chinooks which have a radar sig like the Hindenburg. We've lost about 150 helos in the ten years of the war on terror which is pretty good against the 5,000 we lost in Vietnam. Most of your casualities are not from the hits on the bird but from the crash when it hits the ground. Doesn't it make sense to harden the most vulnerable part of the helo to make it more likely that it can make a controlled descent? At least the crew and passengers have a chance of clearing the bird and getting pciked up to continue the mission instead of being mangled or dead which changes the entire mission from a raid to a rescue. The Army as you know looks at every downed bird like a crime scene; What hit it? What was te effect? What caused the casualties, the hits or the crash? I can't imagine that the Army would look at 150 helicopters downed mostly at low altitude and say 'We need radar stealth capability to defeat surface to air missiles. And Spec Ops really needs it." Now, one final thing, when I look at that picture I don't see a bird that crashed on landing. I see one that crashed taking off. One that lifted, started to move back, had a mechanical problem and came back down at low altitude, perhaps 30 to 40 feet off the ground and landed flat. Look at the tail rotor picture again. It's missing one blade and one is clipped about half way. If it had crashed hard and broken off its tail all those blades would have been missing since they would have spun against the hard deck instantly.. But if the aircraft lifted off, backed a little and lost power it would come down on the wall more gently. The tail might have broken off after the landing when the blades were spinning at a lower speed which would explain them not all being instantly obliterated by contacting the ground at full power. The main rotor seems to be mostly intact as well. A helo without a tail rotor tends to torque like crazy, they usually roll over obliterating the blades on the main rotor, yet the picture show the rotor mostly intact in the upright position. I think it lost power on takeoff and set back down. I would expect casualties from a descent crash too which didn't happen according to reports.

SEAN SPOONTS
SEAN SPOONTS 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

@JackMurphyRGR Apparently, the new Comanche that the DOD scrubbed did. The turbine exhaust was ducted thru the tail. Rotor wash was directed downward thru vents at the top of the tail, cooled the exhaust gases and pushed them out thru a long vent that ran about 15ft along the tail section on both sides. There might have been vents in the tail rotor as well to mix that hot air with the cool air coming thru the tail rotor, If you go along on the idea that stealth in a Spec Ops helo is more about reduced IR sig, increased speed and reduced noise, some things fall into place. The standard Blackhawk has a 4 bladed tail rotor, if you reduce the speed of that rotor you can reduce noise from it, but you lose the torque effect that allows you to control forward flight. But if you added a 5th blade and improved the torque output by that turbine design we see in the pictures you could reduce the speed of the rotor and therefore the noise and still maintain flight stability. Boeing developed a 5 bladed main rotor system for the MD 500 Defender that reduced its noise output considerably under the same principle. Reduce rotor speed and you loose lift and payload, add another blade and redesign them to increase lift at lower rotor rpms and you have a quieter bird that still lifts and can fly forward at a comparable speed to the 4 bladed model. It wouldn't be quiet all the time. It might go 150kts and make a ton of noise or you could reduce rotor rpms to 110kts and be much quieter by eliminating that chop. Believe it or not, the low frequency chop travels a lot farther than that high frequency turbine whine. You must have noticed that the chop of the rotors is heard before the engines are when you are on the ground. If you cut the low frequency noise you've made the helo much quieter. In the pics it appears to be the standard 4 bladed rotor in the pics of the downed blackhawk(it would take a lot of gum and glue to retro fit the the Boeing rotor on a blackhawk), but the tail is certainly different. And the placement of that duct we think we see makes sense. Placed where it is the tail rotor would suck the exhaust out and mix it with the air it already pulling thru at a hugh volume. It would really reduce the IR sig big time, all but eliminate it. By the way, the tip off to me on that vent was the placement of it. It's behind the tail rotor and inboard. I thought; "That's a terrible access hatch placement, the tail rotor is going to be creating suction on the panel and if its not totally locked down it will come off in flight, get sucked thru the tail rotor and kill the bird." Then that weird diamond shape came into focus and I had a Obi Wan; "Thats not a moon its a space station" moment. The vent is probably missing a mesh grill in the pictures.

JackMurphyRGR
JackMurphyRGR moderator 5pts

@SEAN SPOONTS Regarding the tail section, I also thought that looked had a vent designed to help reduce the IR sig of the aircraft but what helicopter has an exhaust placed in the tail? Pretty strange at any rate...

JackMurphyRGR
JackMurphyRGR moderator 5pts

@SEAN SPOONTS A lot of that is news to me. I just don't know, we will have to wait for more information to come out or be declassified to get a better idea.

SEAN SPOONTS
SEAN SPOONTS 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

@JackMurphyRGR O.K. We mostly agree and I'm open minded on this too. I also see stealth features which I alluded to in my comments about what kind of Helo I would ask for if I was the CO of the 160th.. I'm facinated by the absence of rivets, seams or attachment points on the tail section photo we've seen. I think that's a stealth proof right there. The broken sections of the rear fuselage don't have the twist and tear characteristics of metal so it's probably a composite like the F-117 had. I'm also facincated by the shape of that bulge on the tail and the diamond shaped opening at the top of the tail rotor housing which I dismissed originally as a missing access panel hatch. It may actually mean something important to the discussion on this. Your point on a hardened tail rotor being something that would be Army wide is well taken. I hadn't considered that. It makes sense. And if the Army had hardened the tail it would probably be big news that they would want to tell for moral purposes. I think you have it right if your helo guys aren't talking about hardended tail rotors.
Let's posit that stealth in a fighter and stealth in a Helo mean different things. In a helo it means noise reduction more than a reduced radar cross section. The rotors make for a big radar sig, and I just don't know that you can really do anything to improve that. Secondly, Spec Ops helos can and do fly low and you're lost in the clutter on anything but the most sophisticated air search radars in existence today, and we own them. So I think stealth in a helo is really about noise reduction and probably a skin that is lighter and non-reflective to IR. The rotors make most of the noise that you hear from a helicopter and it can carry for miles. The tips of the blades generate these tiny tornadoes that are then 'chopped' by the next blade coming around. You hear this rhythmic chopping sound because all four, five or six blades(depending on rotor design) on the main rotor are making the chop at the same time. Here is an engine start video on a blackhawk. You can literally hear the point where the rotor RPM increases to the point where the 'chop' begins(at about the 2:15 mark). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUjLBtfpSDQ&feature=related

So how do you reduce noise on a helo? Well you do it by adding blades and spinning them at a slower rate of speed to reduce the 'chop.' Or by shortening them and spinning at the same speed or making them asymetrical, a long one and then a short one. But here's the problem, if you slow that main rotor down too much you can take off but you don't have the lift to carry a combat load. So you have this quiet helicopter that can't carry troops. Great for a couple of Niagra falls tourists on a honeymoon, but not so great for SEALs who want to drop in at Bin Laden place for a couple of shots and a few laughs. I think you've got a quieted tail rotor section rather than a hardened one now in that picture. And I think that diamond shaped vent is a engine exhaust diffuser to cool the turbine exhaust and the enlarged spaces on the tail may be cavities for the exhaust gases to 'pool and cool' before being vented into the tail rotor wash. That would allow this blackhawk to fly at higher altitudes with reduced risk of catching an SA-18 in the butt. It might even defeat the IR seeker on that missile completely. Thousands of those missiles are missing from Russia, I imagine we bought some ourselves for testing. But I do differ with those who argue that radar stealth is what we are seeing here. Bin ladens compound was in a mountainous region where air search radar coverage is going to have huge gaps if its even looking. We know how to look at radar coverage maps and fly thru gaps in them. When I was in the fleet our Helos approached Soviet naval vessels from the rear because their low altitude search coverage wasn't as good back there, we could get in closer before being detected. I refer back to the Chinooks here. If we were so worried about radar detection that we used radar stealth blackhawks we blew that up when we flew in the two Chinooks which would have looked like New Hampshire and Delaware coming in on radar. I think it's more plausible that the Chinooks were held back(and reports conflict as to the number and whether they waited at the border or flew 1/3 of the way in) because they are loud. Anyway, it's an interesting topic to think about given the thinness of the public disclosure thus far. Did your helo experts think the bird crashed on landing too rather than take off?

JackMurphyRGR
JackMurphyRGR moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

@SEAN SPOONTS I'm not a helicopter pilot so I had to reach out to some professionals in the field who knew what they were talking about. I'm hesitant to speculate on subjects that I don't have a lot of background on. I do think that this was a stealth helicopter and I think the pictures clearly show stealth features. I don't see a "hardened" MH-60 being warehoused on a secret airbase and flown by a 160th pilots from Echo Squadran. The kind of aircraft you discribe would be an Army-wide project, in otherwords, something that mother Army would pay for and develop. Those are some of my initial thoughts on the topic. I remain open minded, but with so many aviation people weighing in about stealth characteristics, I have to think that there is something to it. Otherwise, it's what, just a big cover story that is being perpetuated by the SOF community? Cover for action...for a tougher type of Black Hawk?

In regards to the Chinooks, it sounds to me like they were in a lager route just across the border on the Afghan side and crossed over once the raid was initiated (time on target for the operators) to provide QRF/CASVAC and whatever else they may have been tasked to do. Unless they were a part of the assault element, it makes perfect sense to send in stealth aircraft to the target with the Chinooks standing by in the background.

Solomon
Solomon 5pts

@SEAN SPOONTS remember the Comanche? it was going to be a mass produced helo, brought to you by the same people that brought you this.

SEAN SPOONTS
SEAN SPOONTS 5pts

Didn't they drop it because the cost of making it survivable in the current environment would have cost billions? Would the Commanche be a good attack helo in a fight with a first or second tier power with modern weaponry coming from China, Russia or France? Hell yeah it would. The Apache kicked ass in the first gulf war and Iraq had modern air defense and surface to air missiles from Russia and France. And the Apache isn't stealthy. I guess my point here is that stealth and survivability mean different things when it comes to helos. Steath in a helo isn't the same thing a stealth in a Raptor.

SEAN SPOONTS
SEAN SPOONTS 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

@BrandonWebb

Thank you very much. I have a great deal of respect for you and your compliment made my day. When we disagree please don't hesitate to let me know, I value your perspective on things very much and disagreement between us won't change that.

BrandonWebb
BrandonWebb moderator 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

@SEAN SPOONTS Great commentary Sean. I don't always agree but you have some great stuff man. -BW

SEAN SPOONTS
SEAN SPOONTS 5pts

Still, really brave guys(and girls?). The planning team on this mission was really on top of things. There are a million problems with a raid like this and they worked them all out beautifully. It suggests that we have a deep understanding of Pakistani military capabilities and know all the get arounds. If I was the head of Pakistani Intelligence I be shitting myself at how the Americans came in and did this without Pakistan being able to do anything but read about it on Twitter.

SEAN SPOONTS
SEAN SPOONTS 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 3 Like

@kursed

Two and two just don't seem to come together for you do they? My profile picture is of me in the military. And in the 29 years since my service I've followed military affairs and history as a matter of course.

There are multiple accounts that state Chinooks accompanied the blackhawks on the mission. Some accounts state that 2 Chinooks waited at the border while 2 others flew into Pakistan and landed. Some accounts state 3 Chinooks went in. Here are some of those sources for you to read. You badly need to broaden your perspective here so you don't react like a jerkoff when someone writes something you disagree with. I've read various accounts of the raid and all state that at least two Chinooks went into Pakistan and then proceeded to Abbottabad to pick up OBL and the SEALs from the downed blackhawk,

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/08/08/110808fa_fact_schmidle?currentPage=2

http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-05-17/news/30008337_1_compound-raid-black-hawks

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2011/05/osama-bin-laden-dead-al-qaeda-islamabad-navy-seals.html?cid=6a00d8341c630a53ef0154321214d1970c

These are just a few of the sources and they all describe Chinooks going into Pakistan and on to abbattobad. Where are your sources? My point is and continues to be that while Stealth Blackhawks may exist, Stealth Chinooks certainly DON'T. So I'm skeptical that stealth blackhawks were used when they also used non-stealthy Chinooks. Its more likely that they simply exploited gaps in Pakistani air search coverage(which is going to be spotty in the mountains to begin with. And nothing you've written so far, in caps or lower case does anything to address that skepticism.

And you've changed your story about the silent mission claims. You've gone from them being silent to mostly silent. It doesn't take secret technology to make helicopters quieter. You simply fly lower to the ground to make less noise. You will notice that the Pakistani civilians Tweeting about the raid as it was happening didn't note their quietness, but the loudness. Their claims speak against silent, stealth blackhawks.

Just a tip for getting along with people here on this site,

1) Source your claims.

2) Try to address the other guys points with something approaching substance.

3) Don't type in all caps because it makes you look like a raving loon.

4) Don't wave your dick around about military service as if it gives you the last word that you spent two more years refueling planes in the Air Force than somebody else. Or whatever you did. I know Veterans who are brilliant and I know Veterans who are rocks who try to eat soup with a knife.

5) Avoid insulting people who have fair disagreements with you and CTFO.

LCpl X
LCpl X 5pts

QRF or any other get out of Dodge plans would have to involve India since Abbottabad is closer to India than the Af-Pak border. I wouldn't want "support" helos that far away.

UBL and company weren't surprised by the silence, they just didn't have any choice in the matter. From all accounts it seemed more like a family compound than a fully armed terrorists' lair.

Look, Solomon, it's Valentine's day and we're talking about crap, don't take this too seriously. I'm writing this while watching free porn. Relax, bro.

Solomon
Solomon 5pts

@SEAN SPOONTS@kursed YOUR INFO IS FAULTY COWBOY. THE SUPPORT HELOS LANDED SHORT OF THE OBJECTIVE ON THE AFGHANISTAN SIDE OF THE BORDER. READY YOUR CRAP AGAIN.

AS FAR AS THE ALMOST SILENTLY PART IS CONCERNED, WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT MULTIPLE HELICOPTERS OPERATING IN ENEMY TERRITORY AND YOU'RE ABLE TO LAND WITHOUT CAUSING ENOUGH COMMOTION FOR YOUR TARGET TO BOLTER THEN YOU'VE DONE IT ALMOST SILENTLY.

I'M DONE WITH YOU. GET SOME KNOWLEDGE SPEND A LITTLE TIME IN THE MILITARY (ANY BRANCH WILL DO) AND THEN GET BACK TO ME. YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT SHIT YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA OR INKLING ABOUT.

POUND SAND.

LCpl X
LCpl X 5pts

@SEAN SPOONTS

I'm assume the hide looked a lot like what Bill Waugh wrote about in 'Hunting the Jackal': http://billywaugh.net/

As for them being "maniacs", Abbottabad has been described as a resort town, tourists go here, so probably not as bad as sitting and snooping in the tribal regions.

SEAN SPOONTS
SEAN SPOONTS 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

Local agents? The big story is us rebuilding our HUMINT capablility for things like that. We gave that up thinking spy sats could do that work and they can't. Anyway, even if they had scrambled jets, the location was in a mountainous region. You ain't going down on the deck at night in looking for helicopters in the mountains and living to tell the tale.

LCpl X
LCpl X 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

In reports, they were a mixture of local agents, CIA, JSOC.

I'm not saying they spilled the beans on UBL, just that scrambled aircrafts wasn't their main worry that night.

SEAN SPOONTS
SEAN SPOONTS 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

And this part did not post with my earlier comments, but if you actually check the 9/11 Commission report you will find that NEADs lost radar contact with flight 77, Flight 11 and Flight 93. They specifically faulted gaps in radar coverage and software problems as the cause. If you want I'll give you a complete run down on it, but it's off topic.

SEAN SPOONTS
SEAN SPOONTS 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 4 Like

@LCpl X Just for the record, I don't think the Pakistanis knew shit about this in advance. We'd be 'nucking futs' to trust them with OPSEC on something like this when they're hiding OBL in their own country. I've know I've said this before, OBL was apparently a high probable on the location since a bunch intel things pointed in that direction, but if I were President I would not have risked an entire SEAL team and 5 helo crews to get just him when a JDAM or some other explosive delivery would kill him cheaper with less risk to our own people. That prospective intel find is the only rational reason a President would say; "O.K. we can put all these guys at this level of extreme risk for that. We might be able to break Al Qaeda for good with OBL's computers and files." The story I really want to read someday is about the people on the ground watching the compound and feeding that information back to Spec Ops Com. Who were these maniacs?

LCpl X
LCpl X 5pts

Look, man, I know Pakistan is playing China and the US. Much of the Pak AF is Chinese planes. I'm just saying, when have you heard the Pak AF push back? I understand, it's common knowledge that ISI, soldiers and police are Islamists, but I'm saying we have their airforce.

We're not going to send out helos into a questionable country, without paying people who are already with us to look away. I'm saying scrambled aircraft wasn't really the concern that night. The more technological an outfit, the more American their leaning will be.

SEAN SPOONTS
SEAN SPOONTS 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

And you are wrong about the Chinooks too. According to reports they landed inside Pakistan about 1/3 the distance to the Abbottabad compound. About 38 minutes into the raid at least one of them landed at the compound and loaded up Bin Ladens body and the team from the downed Blackhawk.

And the Helicopters were not slient. Pakistanis in the area were Tweeting each other about it;

https://twitter.com/ReallyVirtual/status/64800262354763776 @tahirakram very likely - but it was too noisy to be a spy craft, or, a very poor spy craft it was. about 9 hours ago via TweetDeck

https://twitter.com/ReallyVirtual/status/64892915167657984 @kursed Well, there were at least two copters last night, I heard one but a friend heard two, for 15-20 minutes. about 3 hours ago via TweetDeck in reply to kursed

http://news.cnet.com/8301-31921_3-20058790-281.html

I do have a point and i don't think its invalidated at all by your sloppy attempts to refute it. You seem to have the Spec OPs fever where everything has to be explained with super high tech secret skunk works stuff. Do you want to quit now or do you want me to continue to bust you up?

Solomon
Solomon 5pts

@SEAN SPOONTS LCPL X. WTF are you talking about? Pakistan has an airforce and there was a threat that they would scramble to intercept aircraft crossing the border.

are you confusing the lack of interception with the predator strikes? you do know that Pakistan is playing both sides of the fence...they allow those to cross the border to strike at Islamist. when we hit someone that they don't want hit (someone cooperating with there intelligence agencies probably against India...then they go ape sh*t)

look, i'm a critic of many things SOF but you can't take this away from them. it was a ballsy mission. they acted on the intelligence and did was necessary to insure that everyone would know that OBL had been killed. a massive airstrike couldn't do that.

HOW CAN YOU DO A SUBTLE RAID? I NEVER HEARD OF A 'SUBTLE RAID'...EXPLAIN PLEASE.

LCpl X
LCpl X 5pts

@SEAN SPOONTS

Their airwing is ours, the Islamist guys aren't in the airwing. So, they weren't gonna scramble any airplanes period. I agree with Sean.

I think we sent in who we sent in, because we didn't know who was going to be in that compound--had we known (UBL was there w/ weak defense) it would have been a more subtle ops with more subtle guys.

Absense of that certainty, they had to go with ST6. They just had pimped out rides is what I'm thinking.

Solomon
Solomon 5pts

@SEAN SPOONTS well according to reports the Chinooks stayed on the Afghanistan side of the border and established a FARP along with a QRF in case of trouble.

your trying to statement on the failings on 9/11 are off too. if you remember correctly the planes were on radar all the way to there targets. the problem was the decision making cycle. once the policy/decision makers caught up to events the USAF was able to successfully scramble fighter to intercept the airplanes. what other defensive measures were in place are the subject of speculation but some believe that all these buildings have anti-air missiles.

but back to your point. you don't have one. the helo was able to insert without being detected by radar...and what people aren't talking about is that it appears they did so almost silently. they caught them off guard and they killed Bin Laden and left the country before Pakistan could scramble airplanes to intercept.

its a fun conversation but the point remains. stealth worked on this helicopter.

SEAN SPOONTS
SEAN SPOONTS 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

O.K., tell me how the 2 Chinooks on that mission avoided detection? They have a radar sig like a zeppelin. Isn't it at least possible that non-stealth helos flew a route that exploited gaps in Pakistans air search coverage? On 9/11 we lost radar contact with gigantic airliners that were flying below 5,000 feet inside our own country.. Even the Soviets at the height of their military power had detection gaps in their radar coverage in the interior. So did we. We covered the borders pretty well, but inside the country we had gaps, plenty of them. If you were Pakistan would you have air search radars all over the Afghan border, which is not likely to attack you(and doesn't have an Airforce of any size or would you have airtight coverage on the Indian border ,which is your enemy and has a sizable airforce with nuclear bombs?. I don't think evading airsearch radar was a major factor planning for the Bin laden mission, or they would have left the Chinooks out of it.

Solomon
Solomon 5pts

@SEAN SPOONTS don't be so quick to assume the superiority of rotary winged aircraft just because we've been fighting an insurgency for the past ten years.

if you remember, during the push to Baghdad, an Army Combat Aviation Brigade attempted to perform a deep strike with Apaches.

they got shot to pieces.

the Army's historians are forgetting that because they've just gutted everything else and increased the budget for aviation. another case of being focused on the last war instead of looking ahead. so yeah. for insertions you can either have speed or stealth..better if you can have both. but the real answer to your question is that they were able to insert successfully without detection.

that just about says it all. stealth on helicopters works. it kept the raid force together and not spread out (i shudder to think if they had parachuted in and some of the men landed outside the walls, on power lines etc...)

its a valuable asset. too bad they didn't destroy it and allowed it to fall into enemy hands (and that blame falls to the combatant commander, president..whoever made the call not to send a predator strike after it)

John
John 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

Excellent post Jack - never much liked the mathematics behind rotary wing...something about sitting on a pogo stick and solving 4th order equations comes to mind. Those pilots are awesome.

Stickman555
Stickman555 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

Great job Jack. People used to ask me all the time why we would teach other countries straight out of 7-8 or the Ranger Handbook, like it was giving them out playbook. I would tell them that we could give you our grid, direction, troop strength etc, that we would be coming over that hill tomorrow morning at 9 AM and there really wasn't a way to stop it. One thing these guys will never possess is the American mentality of "we will be you at all cost" That is something you can never teach anyone in another country. So screw 'em, I think if they came in on yellow busses with lights and sirens going dressed as circus clowns, they'd would have still pulled it off, and it would have looked better on youtybe!

LCpl X
LCpl X 5pts

@Stickman555

I appreciate the passion, but the self-contratulary theme just doesn't fit.

It took us 10 yrs to find UBL. Not only that, we screwed up in Iraq and Af-Pak, the last 10 yrs has been very expensive--I know this personally.

It took our pre-9/11 DSS, FBI, CIA, DoS to find Yousef, the first World Trade bomber with trucks in the basement, in 2 yrs. The person who killed CIA support staff and officers, outside of CIA HQ was found in 4 yrs. Just good old fashion police ears to the ground type investigation.

Yes, I'm glad UBL is dead and killed by us, but the cost/benefits scale played into their favor not ours, always remember that. And while we are still dicken around with them and over there, China's playing us like clowns.

Old PH2
Old PH2 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

The settling with power is related to the Vortex Ring State the V-22 was so well known for. Lots of big words that mean if the Helo has nothing below to push off of, it drops like a rock. Differences in surface, Flight Deck, Grass, Ocean, Desert, cause serious need for adjustments. All of the guys who fly Rotary wing have my respect.

Sunray
Sunray 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

Oustanding piece Jack, well played Sir!

I read it with great interest and will RT on Twitter asap.

All the best

Nick

Utrinque Paratus.. Fomer NCO, The Ever Glorious 3rd Battalion, The Parachute Regiment.

McPosterdoor
McPosterdoor 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

There was some scuttlebutt regarding the training area that st6 trained at in the 'stan (pictured in INSHALLAH: Part One?) which may have had a chain link fence as opposed to the mud wall barrier and so this potential problem of upwash wasn't exposed in training since it may have flown through the fence. Makes sense to me, but who knows? You try to prepare for everything but, hey, as Donald Rumsfeld said, "There are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns – there are things we do not know we don't know."

BrandonWebb
BrandonWebb moderator 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

Damn Jack. Good fucking write up dude. -Brandon

bmessenheimer
bmessenheimer 5pts like.author.displayName like.author.displayName 2 Like

Killer article and great comparative imagery with the pics. What I find most interesting is the illumination of the Kevin's point that even those who are operating within specific unit structure are still effectively compartmentalized as it relates to "secret" gear that is in production or in testing. Again amazing article. Well done

JackMurphyRGR
JackMurphyRGR moderator 5pts

@bmessenheimer Thank you!

SEAN SPOONTS
SEAN SPOONTS 5pts

@Riceball I didn't see your comments until just now. I'm not too worried about China attacking us for the following reasons.

1) China can do the math. We have a 15 trillion dollar a year economy supporting 300 million people. They have a 5 trillion dollar a year economy supporting 1.3 billion people. In an all out war, the drain on China's economy would be felt long before we would feel those same effects. There is also the notion of stored wealth to account for. Most Americans could go 5 years without buying clothes, cars, furniture or other items which would be diverted in favor of war production. The Chinese would be in rags, sitting on the floor and walking in five years. I also doubt the Chinese could feed their army in the field without starving their own population to do it.

2) We owe China about a trillion dollars. A war with us would mean them getting stiffed on that money. In that sense being a debtor to China has a strategic value to us in protecting Taiwan from aggression.

I hope that doesn't sound like I'm projecting our reasons for China not going to war with us onto their own thinking on the subject. But nobody goes to war unless they anticipate a gain that makes the losses in blood and treasure worthwhile. I don't think the losses in blood trouble the Chinese, but I suspect the losses in treasure might.

Riceball
Riceball 5pts

@SEAN SPOONTS While it may have been true for it making no sense for Japan attacking us back in '41 but it's not like they did it for the hell of it. You have to remember that they were going through an imperialisitc phase back then which we didn't like and we placed what amounted to sanctions on them which (they felt) backed them into a corner and so as a result they launched the attack on Pearl Harbor.

In the case of China they can't afford to go war with us, at least not right now. Their economy is too tied to ours for them to be able to afford a war with us and they need us far more than we need them. So long as we don't back them into a corner like we did with Japan I doubt we'll ever get into an all out war with China. Likewise with Taiwan, I don't think that China will invade Taiwan unless pushed to in order to save face and the only that would likely cause that would be for Taiwan to formally push/claim independence from China. Everybody knows that Taiwan is a de facto sovreign state but so long as they (Taiwan) pay lip service to being a part of China or even the true gov't in exile I'd imagine, China is content to leave them be and reap the benefits of their trade with each other.

LCpl X
LCpl X 5pts

@SEAN SPOONTS

I totally agree with you, man.

The mirror imaging phenomena in the field of predictive analysis, I too hope is something our best/brightests are heeding. There's people more qualified than I am, studying this stuff.

I do think the war with China will happen, I just feel that if we ignore the market side of their strategy, we've already lost the actual war.

(re: UBL though, I think his plan was for us to go berserk, go to war and make a mess trying to find him, the moment we did this we played into his trap. Yeah he's dead, but I think we still fell for his trap. Al-Qaeda as an organization is weaker, but we've made so many other organizations that aren't symphatetic to us a lot stronger.)

SEAN SPOONTS
SEAN SPOONTS 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

@LCpl X I grant you all of this, but offer this cautionary tale from history. It made no sense to us that the Japanese would attack us, we were convinced(rightly)that they did not possess the industrial capacity to sustain a war against us for more than a year. Believing they knew what we knew, we behaved as if Japan would remain peaceful towards us. Yet the Japanese attacked us just the same. Along these lines I don't think Bin Laden expected or anticipated our reaction to his attacks on 9/11, if he had looked at things from our perspective he might not have given the go ahead. We can't assume to know what our potential enemies are thinking from our own perspective. We have to look at things from theirs',.... if we can. I appreciate your remarks all the same and would be happy to read more on anything you can point me towards.

LCpl X
LCpl X 5pts

@SEAN SPOONTS

There's some articles in Washington Quaterly or Foreign Affairs (I'll look for it) that convincingly covers why China's calculus on Taiwan has lessened lately. With the Jeremy Lin craze maybe mainland's hard on for Taiwan is back. But remember Taiwan is softening up too.

Don't get me wrong the flash points are there, with Japan, Taiwan, Philippines, Vietnam, Malaysia, hell even Burma these days, but I think China's come along way and their cost/benefit model has shifted. Keep an eye on the Huawei's and other Chinese company's incorporating in the US.

SEAN SPOONTS
SEAN SPOONTS 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

@LCpl X I want you to be right about China being more market driven than battlefield driven. But China has this thing about getting Taiwan back that borders on obsession. If a 2 year war to regain Taiwan cost China 200 billion dollars and they obtained an island that was generating $800 billion a year in wealth it might make market sense to try and grab it especially if we have a guy in the White House that doesn't think Taiwanese sovereignty is a big issue.

LCpl X
LCpl X 5pts

@SEAN SPOONTS

But it's not for a lack of trying, just that aircraft carriers are not their priority. China has a pretty good program in place right now, where they invited every physicist, every brain, who ever left China to return to have their own research, fully funded. Nano technology, hyperjets, hell why do you think DARPA started with cold fusion a couple of years back? Their focus is in other areas, which shows clearly their intentions, the market, not the battlefield.

SEAN SPOONTS
SEAN SPOONTS 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

I disagree, building an aircraft carrier is an enormous technological undertaking because of all the systems that go into it from advanced metals and propulsion systems to electronic systems and weapons. Hell, making a reliable steam catapult to launch planes takes tremendous technical knowhow.. The Russians never could make one work(After a decade of trying) which is why they built small, ramp carriers instead.

LCpl X
LCpl X 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

Regarding buying old Russian aircraft carrier, don't mistake this for lack of technical know how--just difference in priorities, is all:

http://www.apnatime.com/14723/2011/11/21/telecom/government-suspecting-huawei-espionage/ (Huawei)

SEAN SPOONTS
SEAN SPOONTS 5pts like.author.displayName 1 Like

@JackMurphyRGR @bmessenheimer Let me also agree here. I don't agree with all the conclusions but its fairly reasoned and a worthy subject. I am right with Jack on China. China buying an aircraft carrier from Russia speaks volumes about their lack of technical sophistication in variou areas.

LCpl X
LCpl X 5pts

@JackMurphyRGR The best article so far on Sofrep.

Brent Okuley
Brent Okuley 5pts

@BrandonWebb I agree. Well done Jack.

Join the SOFREP Team Room, Support Our Veteran Writing Team
  • Hot Now

  • Latest SOFREP

    • Is Pakistan Heading Towards a Cliff?

      Is Pakistan Heading Towards a Cliff?

      May 20, 2013, 4 Comments
    • And The Hits Just Keep On Comin'

      And The Hits Just Keep On Comin

      May 20, 2013, 12 Comments
    • A Team Effort - Part 1

      A Team Effort – Part 1

      May 19, 2013, 26 Comments
    • In the IDF, 'Lonely Soldier' is a term that describes soldiers serving on active duty who have no family is Israel. These are volunteers that came to serve for 3-5 years. They typically go back to their respective countries upon completion. Most commonly, these are people who immigrated to Israel by themselves. I was one of them. While in Israel, I lived in an apartment building where the majority of people were lonely soldiers. It was located on the outer ring of Jerusalem, surrounded by four Arab villages. My roommates were two recon guys (like me) and one who worked in field intel. All of the other inhabitants were soldiers from various units, with most of them serving a combat role. It was a well known thing, especially to the Arabs in the village. Most of the time we wouldn't be there, but when we were on leave, we would come to the apartment for a little R&R. It was rare that the four of us were there at the same time, but once in a blue moon, it did happen. Each village had, as is customary, its own mosque. When the time for prayer came, the loudspeakers would call out to the faithful. It was OK, we were used to it. However, over the weekend they would make it a point to play the call to prayer very, and I mean VERY, loud. They knew soldiers would be in the building trying to get some sleep - recovering from several weeks in the field. This always annoyed me but there was nothing I could do. On this particular weekend, after an intense seven weeks of non-stop ops, all I wanted was to go to the apartment, sleep, eat, sleep some more and then sleep again. That weekend the four of us were at the apartment and we were all equally tired. We arrived Thursday night and after a small dinner and some beers, we went to sleep. At 0400 we all jumped.... The freaking loudspeakers at all four mosques began their call to prayer at full blast. Fuck.... We spent the remainder of the day trying to rest and every time we would fall asleep, again... The call for prayers, full blast! Over lunch, we all looked at each other and knew this had to stop. We came up with a plan. I know it wasn't nice, but at that point we couldn't care less about political correctness. Here's what we did. After some recon that night, we noticed that the call to prayer wasn't performed by an Imam or some other person with a microphone. It was a tape recorder that used a tape. We figured the four of us, experts in stealthy infils, could sneak in and steal those tapes. However, while we were planning the different infil routes for each village, we all smiled and did something better. We recorded Metallica's 'For Whom the Bell Tolls' on repeat on all four tapes and then waited till midnight. At midnight, each one of us - armed with a Metallica tape - headed to a different village. All dressed in black, we were careful not to be seen. We entered into the buildings and exchanged the tapes. We rallied back to the exfil point, a crossroad not far from the last village and headed back to our apartment. And then we waited... At 0350 we went to the roof with some coffee, opened some field chairs and waited for the show to begin. At 0400 sharp the first "call" came alive, full volume: Make his fight On the hill in the early day Constant chill deep inside ... Take a look To the sky Just before you die It's the last time he will Followed by the next, then the 3rd and 4th joined in. Full volume Metallica! Soon after, we heard sirens headed to the villages. I don't know what happened after that, but we had our own private concert, right there. No kidding, there I was... Metallica call to prayer

      No Kidding There I Was… Metallica Call to Prayer

      May 18, 2013, 49 Comments
    • 345

      Battlefield America: Literary Reflux in 500 Words or Less, #2

      May 17, 2013, 100 Comments
    • north-korea-missiles_opt

      North Korea: Missile Systems

      May 16, 2013, 23 Comments
    • tripoli-embassy-usa-sofrep

      State Department’s ATA Program—A Disaster in the Making

      May 15, 2013, 25 Comments
    • What’s Been 'Camouflaged' About Camouflaged Uniforms?

      What’s Been ‘Camouflaged’ About Camouflaged Uniforms?

      May 14, 2013, 252 Comments
    • Hoorah! Marine Torturing/Murdering Terrorist Killed!

      Hoorah! Marine Torturing/Murdering Terrorist Killed!

      May 13, 2013, 74 Comments
    • Larry Thorne: Three Wars Under Three Flags

      Larry Thorne: Three Wars Under Three Flags

      May 12, 2013, 37 Comments
  • Most Commented

    • Not Mirandizing Terrorists? Slippery slope...

      Not Mirandizing Terrorists? Slippery slope...

      April 25, 2013, 544 Comments
    • Analyzing the Chechen Connection to the Boston Marathon

      The Brothers Kavkaz: Analyzing the Chechen Connection to the Boston Marathon

      April 21, 2013, 447 Comments
    • Extortion 17 Heroes

      Extortion 17 Heroes

      May 9, 2013, 370 Comments
    • What’s Been 'Camouflaged' About Camouflaged Uniforms?

      What's Been 'Camouflaged' About Camouflaged Uniforms?

      May 14, 2013, 252 Comments
    • Benghazi: Book Delves Into the Details Nobody's Talking About

      UT Report: Benghazi Book Uncovers the Details Nobody's Talking About

      May 7, 2013, 245 Comments
    • Attention Whores and Conspiracy Theorists (But I Repeat Myself)

      Attention Whores and Conspiracy Theorists (But I Repeat Myself)

      April 27, 2013, 238 Comments
    • State Department at Fault Over Benghazi Response

      State Department at Fault Over Benghazi Response

      May 2, 2013, 229 Comments
    • DSC_4902

      Why Does PETA Want to Kill Our Special Operators?

      April 29, 2013, 188 Comments
    • SOFREP on Newsmax TV Discussing Benghazi

      SOFREP on Newsmax TV Discussing Benghazi

      May 8, 2013, 157 Comments
    • red dawn

      Battlefield America: Literary Reflux in 500 Words or Less

      April 30, 2013, 136 Comments
  • Topics by Category

    • SOF News

    • Op-Ed

    • MARSOC

    • NSWC

    • USASOC

    • Coalition SOF

    • SOF History

    • Special Operations

    • Black Ops & Intel

    • Admin

    • No Shit There I Was

  • SOFREP TV

    • U.S. Army Rangers Episode 4: Life in Ranger Battalion (Part 1)

      U.S. Army Rangers Episode 4: Life in Ranger Battalion (Part 1)

      May 20, 2013, 4 Comments
    • US Army Rangers Episode 3: Ranger Indoctrination (RIP)

      U.S. Army Rangers Episode 3: Ranger Indoctrination (RIP)

      May 15, 2013, 17 Comments
    • U.S. Army Rangers Episode 2: Ranger Indoctrination (RIP)

      U.S. Army Rangers Episode 2: Ranger Indoctrination (RIP)

      May 13, 2013, 41 Comments
    • Honoring the Fallen

      Heroes of U.S. Special Operations: Honoring the Fallen

      December 9, 2012, 4 Comments
    • The Unifying Issue

      Heroes of U.S. Special Operations: The Unifying Issue

      December 8, 2012, 3 Comments
    • Veterans Day

      Heroes of U.S. Special Operations: Veterans Day

      December 7, 2012, 2 Comments
    • Inside the Team Room Episode 26: Passing the Gut Check

      Inside the Team Room Episode 26: Passing the Gut Check

      November 19, 2012, 7 Comments
    • Inside the Team Room Episode 25: SEALs vs. Gangsters

      Inside the Team Room Episode 25: SEALs vs. Gangsters

      November 18, 2012, 16 Comments
    • Inside the Team Room Episode 24: Leaving the Teams

      Inside the Team Room Episode 24: Leaving the Teams

      November 17, 2012, 4 Comments
  • SOFREP Radio

    • And The Hits Just Keep On Comin'

      And The Hits Just Keep On Comin

      May 20, 2013, 12 Comments
    • Navy SEAL Mike Ritland And Dog Rico Tour New York

      Navy SEAL Mike Ritland And Dog Rico Tour New York

      May 10, 2013, 18 Comments
    • Mark Donald - SEAL Medic And Author Of Book Battle Ready

      Mark Donald – SEAL Medic And Author Of Book Battle Ready

      April 28, 2013, 10 Comments
SOFREP Network SOFREP Network SOFREP Navy SEALs The Loadout Room Hot Extract The Arms Guide SOFREP Radio SOFREP TV SOFREP Team Room
Listen to SOFREP Radio #1 on iTunes
  • Contact
  • About
  • Terms of Use
  • Privacy Policy
  • Commenting
  • Advertisers

© Copyright 2013 SOFREP Inc. All Rights Reserved.