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Mission Creep: UAV’s Over America

by Jack Murphy · April 25, 2012 · Posted In: Admin

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101 comments

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PatrioticCitizen

1 Like

The real question is where do they think the line stops in our pursuit of safety and security ...Just when do we start having to really examine what old Ben Franklin said about ..They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither.

carter1065

As a UAV Operator, we do not spy on civilians. Noir do we want to, your boring.

Daniel745

http://www.tennessean.com/article/20120503/PROMO/120503008/2275/RSS05

Metro Nashville PD just added 2 UAVs via a grant from DHS.

Appears to be this model.

http://www.draganfly.com/uav-helicopter/draganflyer-x8/

ArcticWarrior

2 Like

With this, the Patriot Act and CISPA passing the House amongst others, it shows how our Govt really feels about the Constitution.

Tango9

asshole alert on the Team Room #2 thread. Thought I'd tell you now Kat since you always miss the shooting.

Tango9

John Choate chose to visit sofrep and without pause, shat himself. Comments are closed, but the remnants are there for viewing.

Dutch

1 Like

@Tango9

i went to jump in on that ass hat and they were disabled..... Needless to say, I was disappointed. I was feeling a verbal shit coming on and his ass wouldve been a perfect place to lay it. What a jackass.

Tango9

@Dutch It's too bad because now the comments are closed on that thread. I waited all week for that episode and this tool rolls in and takes a crap right in the middle of the floor ruining it for everyone.

jrexilius

1 Like

Sadly the democratization of technology and human nature make this inevitable. I only hope to make enough money to secure myself a nice island in a tropical latitude somewhere..

Tango9

5 Like

since there's no open thread here. This is my opening photo for the SOFREP beard off. The red tint just makes it better. Wife said: do NOT post that picture... I'm all... whatever.... I'm the king, rub my feet.

http://greyttimes.com/?p=662

dethenigma

@Tango9 - OK, if this gets - "the affirmative" - I'll join the ranks... though I'm already about a months worth of growth... my pic shall be standing by....

Dutch

2 Like

@Tango9 Damn... So this beard off is actually happening. Im down, but how long do we have? My beards like a train, its takes a bit to get going but once it does, watch the fuck out. Gotta fight the neck itch.

Tango9

1 Like

@Dutch Amen brother, it ain't a joke. I have an Emerson CQC-7B (wave) nestled nicely in its package awaiting the winner. I NEED Jack or brandon to certify this madness and I'll pick a date, probably July? Aug? Somewhere in there.

Tango9

@Dutch East of Colorado Springs

Dutch

1 Like

@Tango9 Ill be ready to rock by then..... On a side note, I checked out your blog and Im jealous of the view from your place. Id guess Oklahoma, buts it looks a bit too hilly.

katgirl231

2 Like

@Tango9 Tuh! It's a good photo. Finally got to see your blog. Like it too. Ah those Parrots with the 120IQs. I love the pet ones, but the feral flocks around here can be loud and decimated my mom's and neighbor's fruit trees!

Tango9

1 Like

@katgirl231 Hah! thanks, Kat, they're too smart. Especially my female congo grey. She's trouble on a stick.

Old PH2

1 Like

@Tango9 Great start. Keep us apprised I want maximum Beardage!!!!

Tango9

@Old PH2 I just looked at that again and damned if she ain't right: I do look like an egg lol. Let me try to tie Jack or Brandon down so they can officially sanction this worm wrestle.

anirishlad

Just to touch on the point of civilians owning/using survelliance vehicles, I believe with the more widespread use of 3D printing it will become relatively common for recreational (and possibly LE) uses.

Breach

2 Like

We as humans crave 2 things, security and stuff. As long as we are being kept secure we will keep letting the government spy on us and take away our freedoms.

ArcticWarrior

2 Like

Its not just the Feds folks, plenty os small LE Depts do it now. Your cell phones and texts are not only intercepted by the big boys, maybe even your local PD. As for UAVs lots of LE Depts are going to them, once the FAA gives green light all hell will break loose with everyone wanting in on it. Cell phone companies now even market tracking info to LE at the local level. Were flirting with becoming the USSR.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2012/04/20124518519786175.html

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=24374

http://www.technolog.msnbc.msn.com/technology/technolog/aclu-police-track-cellphones-too-625114

Old PH2

1 Like

I keep certain books in PDF format on a flash drive for reference purposes, I have been re-reading information from Van Rich's book on "Rural Surveillance." To paraphrase him:

"83% of the of the US landmass and 20% of the population are in rural areas. Covered by roughly 2300 sheriff's departments, most of which are tied to patrolling from a cruiser."

Urban gangs and related crime are spilling into the rural areas. Just watch an episode of COPS and see where the tweekers cook, or the POT heads grow. This type of asset can be used to patrol and recon suspected criminal activity.

Tango9

5 Like

@Old PH2 The difference is people that live out in the sticks (me, and I'd guss a lot of you) are armed. To the teeth. You break into a house out where I live you'd best have a will. Home invasion, whatever, these folks shoot first and bury the body later.

Old PH2

@Tango9 One of the issues in our area is the fact that most Farmers work a full time or part time job on top of running their farms. Many women work now so no one is home to watch the property. We have had a couple of cases where out of state guys come in off the interstate and just break in cleaning out a home. Or worse barricading themselves in and fighting it out with Ohio Highway Patrol & County Sheriff's.

Riceball

@Tango9 I like the sentiment but you do that in CA you're likely to get your ass sued off if the perp survives, if he doesn't then his family will try to sue you and they'd probably win too. Alternately, if you're white and the perp is black then you'd probably be crucified by the liberal media for racial profiling and committing a hate crime even if the perp had a record a mile long, was armed to the teeth, and recorded threatening to kill you and your family. Then, stand your ground/castle law or no you'll be tried because the local government will be pressured into doing so after some spotlight seeking individuals make an even bigger stink of things.

katgirl231

2 Like

@Tango9 @Old PH2 I wish LAPD would treat people the same way. Fortunately I live in a small town with it's small police dept. They're pretty nice, but it still shocked me when I remembered a ride-along in high school which they encouraged back then. This time I asked, got looked at suspiciously through some rank layers and kept getting the question with the suspicious tone, "Why do you want to do that? What need do you have to ask?" After which I never received any return calls from their officers. I was floored but told them that I had a good experience in H.S. and I thought it was a good way to get to understand what they did. Times sure have changed. Here in SoCal I think Riverside is still a meth town and I personally do not want to explore BLM land.

ArcticWarrior

3 Like

@Old PH2

Good points. In Alaska of all places we had a huge Meth problem- cant blame that on the Mexitels. Have a huge Meth problem now down here near the Border- the tweekers I deal with have nothing to do with the cartels down south across the Border, they cook with products that can be bought/stolen in your local walgreens.

UAVs have some niche, Ranchers here want to use them to keep track of cattle, Ok reasonable. The SO I work for wants to use them for SAR and .......

As in all tech revolutions the law trails and lags in regards to our rights as Americans. The trick is to not let it get to the point that the Global Hawk flying from AZ to NEV "fishing" isnt treating us like its Abbottabad.

Tango9

4 Like

@Old PH2 I'm fortunate enough to live in a county where I know the sheriff and most of the deputies. We're rural (like out in the desert rural) and I'm 2 clicks from the sferiff's stables. Get to know your local LE folks, especially the county guys. No hate to city police but it's a different breed.

dethenigma

2 Like

@Tango9 - I'm in the very same situation. - rural (west texas desert rural) and I agree, get to know them, and they know you, including (any) fellow BP, ICE, Forestry, and similar, as that would be the only addition(s) I would suggest to add to the list of (get to knows).

katgirl231

1 Like

@Old PH2 @ArcticWarrior The Puna forest on the Big Island was always a place that the locals warn you about hiking off trail. I heard that Mexico and Columbia have been re-tooling to be big pre-cursor chemical producers and I think I heard China is too. Had no idea that Hawaii was a big meth producer (although I heard about Hawaiian Ice)

Tango9

5 Like

@Old PH2 @dethenigma Yeah our guys have a lot of territory to cover, but they're good people. Last time I spotted a poacher I had my spotting scope set up on the hood of my truck and when the deputy arrived the first thing I did was tell him I'm carrying. He said "Good, we nee more of you out here."

dethenigma

1 Like

@Tango9 OH HELL!! = Hudspeth County here! - Ndeed, I do the same. - Gathering around - "Angies" - from time to time, for coffee and ensuring they know there appreciated as well.

ArcticWarrior

@Old PH2

It never ceases to amaze me. I think its fair to say we have lost the war on drugs.

Old PH2

2 Like

@ArcticWarrior My little Brother lives on the Big Island just outside the Parker Ranch, they have a huge problem with Meth in Hawaii. Can you believe raw materials are coming from Mexico and Columbia? Weird world.

ArcticWarrior

2 Like

@Old PH2 @Tango9 @dethenigma

Yeah same with our SO, huge sized County, lots of dark desert roads. Same goes for the DPS guys. Backup could be a long ways away and hopefully nobody banged in sick that shift.

Old PH2

3 Like

@Tango9 @dethenigma My county Sheriff is the unarmed guy in the black leather jacket running to the downed officer. The shootout was the result of one Sheriff's deputy being shot in the face with a 12 gauge by a mentally disturbed individual. First police fatality of 2011. The guy has heart, but they cover way to much sq miles with too few guys.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OFGvMfD-G8&oref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Furl%3Fsa%3Dt%26rct%3Dj%26q%3D%26esrc%3Ds%26source%3Dweb%26cd%3D3%26ved%3D0CDcQFjAC%26url%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.youtube.com%252Fwatch%253Fv%253D-OFGvMfD-G8%26ei%3DxoqYT4ufC83kggeijsHLBg%26usg%3DAFQjCNG5pV4babcmb6Fvv0SjF0RXSgSMFA

Tango9

1 Like

@dethenigma El Paso County, CO. Our sheriff is a solid dude, and his deputies are great people. I make it a point to let them know I appreciate what they do.

Gengiskhan6

@Old PH2 it is actually what stillfly is used for. I guess as in the battle between anti virus and virus there will be updates and developments in answers to this progress of the surveillance and police but it would bring lot of money to be used by the bad behaving boys ... it might also take at a more violent and merciless behaviour the bad guys...

Gengiskhan6

This is actually very cool.

But guys. I want to suggest an article I had the honor, pleasure and I don't know what but sense of happiness to read lately. It's about drones used for a very cool porpouse. I am an activist and ambientalist and this is a WIN for people like me:

It's name is STILLFLY ... can you believe this ? http://www.wired.co.uk/magazine/archive/2012/05/start/eco-crime-flying-squad

It's all Italian stuff. eheheeheh SO PROUD!

Old PH2

Do you guys remember the search for Eric Rudolph? If the FBI BATF had access to this technology he would most probably not be on the FBI ten most wanted list to this day.

ArcticWarrior

1 Like

@Old PH2

If they had done good Police work instead of the hatchet job they did on Richard Jewell they would have had their guy a lot faster

Old PH2

One of the reasons not to regulate this stuff is self evident; look at the proliferation of civilian developed drones. These guys will continue to push the technology and make it better, at little to no gov't cost. We're back to the balancing act.

katgirl231

2 Like

@Old PH2 That really brings to mind some things. At one time the FCC laws said that you could receive anything you wanted to as long as you didn't divulge you SWL sessions. That's changed. There's always been a shared base of knowledge between civilian long range shooters, benchresters and the military - but I think parts of the government would like to label precision rifles as "sniper weapons" or some such thing and I know that one of the semi-underground long range forums I participate in is under watch. There could be a lot of advances in the field of miniature drones if serious hobbyists got into it.

This comment has been deleted

Tango9

3 Like

@JMattHicks @BoxOfGridSquares Matt, you know as well as I do, deep down, that when it finally does effect you, it's too late. So how long do we just sit here and watch the incoming? That's a question we all have to answer individually.

This comment has been deleted

katgirl231

3 Like

@JMattHicks @Tango9 @BoxOfGridSquares Great answers. It reminds me of the time management at a company I worked for (and we were all squeaky clean) wanted to initiate random drug testing during the 80s. A number of us felt that it was an unnecessary invasion of privacy (which we all didn't really have). Some of the older guys actually said in a meeting, "We should test you first. If you have nothing to hide, than what's the problem?" Uh huh.

DonovanE

@JMattHicks

You also have to remember is that a college drone doing research or is an agricultrul drone or is it even the local police that is short on officers.

BoxOfGridSquares

5 Like

If it requires a warrant then fine. It would limit it's effectiveness considerably so I'm not sure how that's going to work out minus simply monitoring known locations. Walking out of the house however and having several eyes in the sky monitoring my movement seems ridiculous though just as if the police were following me on foot on in a vehicle waiting for someone to do to something. That is harassment and drones can do it as well.

LCpl X

6 Like

This is probably a lot more intrusive and worth more of a closer look:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications_Assistance_for_Law_Enforcement_Act

I lived in Hollywood for almost a year before join the Corps, the LAPD ghetto birds are constant, they are noisy, and even more loud when loud speakers are used to give out commands. We've already been conditioned to accept these aerial monitoring and surveillance.

These police helicopters have been known to catch stolen vehicles off the road, they fly around, the radio's slow, so they do their own capering, their own snooping and pooping, they've interdicted hot prowls, burglaries, robberies, etc. In addition to all that they've seen couples humping in their verandas, private porn shoots, and all that good stuff you'd only see in LA.

Local police are interested in crime and maybe some free titties, otherwise everything else is beyond their scope and interest.

The federal security apparatus, however, I'd be more wary of. But like I said, CALEA's probably warrants greater distress.

'A spoon full of sugar makes the medicine go down' ~ Mary Poppins

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EU-IBF8nwSY (Hal Riney's ad)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_lnwNIlJUo (Hal Riney)

Renegade

1 Like

The big problem with technology is that inevitably it will end up being used by people on the lower end of the power scale. Not even 15 years ago drone technology was the preserve of big nations now a simple google search will have diagrams and build tutorials on the most basic of UAVs.

As new innovations are made and technology becomes accessible to the lower end you will see more and more use of this type of thing happening, what is needed right from the get go however is legislation designed to prevent abuse. Will that ever happen? I highly doubt it because shiny kit is well... shiny.

Old PH2

1 Like

@Renegade Our wire tap and acoustic surveillance laws differ from state to state, where I live I can record any conversation I have on the phone as long as it's within the state. In public anyone can record a conversation on a public street as long as it doesn't require amplification. Imagery has similar laws, basically if you step out of your house you are in the public and should not consider that you have any expectation of privacy.

JackMurphyRGR moderator

6 Like

@Old PH2 Actually I think that Uncle Sam will make ownership of UAV's by private citizens illegal in the very near future. This is something they want the monopoly on. I'm a lot more worried by the government flying these things over America than I am with some hobbyists, even if a few of them have bad intentions. FPS Russia excluded of course....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNPJMk2fgJU&feature=g-logo&context=G214f70fFOAAAAAAADAA

Riceball

1 Like

@ArcticWarrior @katgirl231 @Old PH2 @JackMurphyRGR Something to do with being mistaken for real guns or some such nonsense. If you ask me, it's really just a backdoor way to outlawing all guns in CA.

ArcticWarrior

1 Like

@Riceball @katgirl231 @Old PH2 @JackMurphyRGR

Really? Airsoft? What could possibly be the basis for that?

ArcticWarrior

@Tango9

Im sure you can figure something out ; )

Riceball

@katgirl231 @Old PH2 @JackMurphyRGR And did I mention the stupid legislations they've been wanting to pass that would effectively make airsofts illegal in CA too?

Riceball

2 Like

@katgirl231 @Old PH2 @JackMurphyRGR Agreed wholeheartedly. Sort of like their ban on .50 rifles, solution to a non-existent problem. No use to gang bangers because they're too heavy and slow firing and how many gang bangers actually know how to shoot well enough to take advantage of a .50 rifle? Terrorists? Come on! Once again, too big and heavy and if they're going with a weapon that big and heavy I'm sure they'd sooner try to get their hands on a MANPAD if shooting down airliners was their thing. Stupid CA lawmakers.

katgirl231

4 Like

@Old PH2 @JackMurphyRGR interview or being questioned, "Now why <italics> do you need <italics> a rifle which can shoot accurately so far?" I hate that mind-set.

katgirl231

3 Like

@Old PH2 @JackMurphyRGR It's sad. Most nerds like me enjoy making weird toys like that because it's fun and educational. Watch California come up with another lurid name like "Assault Drone" and put them under their Dangerous Devices law. Not that long ago I got a precision rifle and for the first time in my life, the DOJ called me directly on my cell to verify my address etc. Where's my aluminum foil hat? I'm getting a panic attack.

katgirl231

1 Like

@JackMurphyRGR @Tango9 @Old PH2 Boy, are you guys ever right. I see that happening. At the same time, I'll have to dig around my computer for a study (coin and urban control in the US) which mentioned the average amount of time you're on a video camera just doing errands in any major city. Yes, it has helped solve some crimes but it just doesn't bode well for personal liberties. Hey, I just saw a police cruiser in Glendale, CA with a FLIR mounted on the roof. I know it's to help catch bad people but it sure gave me a funny feeling. I can hardly wait for the LE birds to get LWIR or mm wave radar so they can see what dense objects you're walking your dog with.

Tango9

2 Like

@ArcticWarrior Can I put a Hellfire on that?

katgirl231

@ArcticWarrior @Tango9 when I had the money, this was going to be a future project of mine. The four rotor R/C helicopters weren't out yet. I had cameras and some good video xmitters. I realized it would be an expensive and frustrating project which I'd use for very little. Still, a remote camera with a good xmitter would be great for 1000+yd targets (esp. since I have to be my own spotter), but that would be a lot more expensive junk to carry around and video monitors aren't fun to look at in the desert. I love what some of the guys with money are doing with cell phones and balloons though.

Renegade

@Old PH2

Too late for that https://rabbit-hole.org/how-to/. If people can do it, they will. The things they used aren't even that hard to implement the most prohibiting factor is the financial outlay.

ArcticWarrior

4 Like

@Tango9

The hell with the helo tango, go with the RC Reaper with the electronics package!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noAkxd-Z9lY&feature=relmfu

ArcticWarrior

1 Like

@JackMurphyRGR

Yes it is coming, you are correct. You will not be able to operate a private drone if they get their way.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2104171/Francis-Fukuyamas-DIY-spy-drone-sparks-debate-growing-trend-hobby-aircraft.html

Old PH2

@JackMurphyRGR @Tango9 I think the legal restrictions in place on hobbyists requires line of site useage only. It also places a payload weight limit, to prevent major property damage.

Old PH2

1 Like

@JackMurphyRGR I think the Gov't has a responsibility to keep Joe Avg. from using Drones for ELINT missions. But your average hobbyist will not come under this category. Still this will cause much legal wrangling.

Tango9

2 Like

@Old PH2 @JackMurphyRGR Yup I did the same as a kid. In fact, I've always wanted to get a remote helicopter. This post just made me head to amazon and buy one. They're pretty cheap, most under $50. I'm pretty sure I can get a 20mm cannon mounted on that thing given enough time in the shop lol

Renegade

@Tango9 @JackMurphyRGR @Old PH2

I agree with Jack, I don't think this type of thing will be excluded to the U.S either. Have you guys seen that lovely new laser following 50 cal round Sandia developed recently? It wouldn't take very much for that to be developed in a garage workshop at all (it is after all just a small 8-bit computer, laser dot tracking software and some servo controlled fins attached to a piece of metal launched from a seamless tube)

Now imagine something of that scale or perhaps smaller placed on to a Micro-UAV. To the governments eyes the potential for abuse (what is and isn't abuse is of course subjective) will ultimately lead to them being A. Banned outright or B. Heavily licenced and require silly amounts of paper work and financial out lay to get the licence. Just my 0.02c

Old PH2

2 Like

@JackMurphyRGR I can recall working with model rockets in 5th grade and setting up a small camera to snap pics upon parachute deployment. There are guys experimenting with Kites and Heliostats for camera platforms, all Hobbyists. the site DIYdrones has a great deal of Info on the subect:

http://diydrones.com/

The Drone Journalism Lab has some good info about legal precedents as well.

http://dronejournalism.tumblr.com/

Tango9

1 Like

@JackMurphyRGR @Old PH2 We have to draw the line somewhere. Here's as good a place as any.

Tango9

1 Like

@JackMurphyRGR @Old PH2 Then I guess it'll come to shootin'

JackMurphyRGR moderator

1 Like

@Tango9 @Old PH2 I think exactly that type of legislation is coming.

Tango9

3 Like

@JackMurphyRGR @Old PH2 But can't I go to radio shack, buy a helicopter, place whatever imaging devices I can find on it and launch it in my back yard? Government can't regulate that, and if they try... well... praise jesus and pass the ammunition.

Mission Creep: UAV’s Over America

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